-WARRING- Long *** post below. There will be no TL : DR. If you don't bother to read, then Im not going to bother to read either. Fair is fair after all. _end_ First you need to see everything. If you don't read these links then you will not know all of the details. https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-1-nc.138919/ https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-2-tr.139047/ https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-3-vs.139055/ Once you know the details (or skipped them like a lazy *******) it's time to compare them all. Everything I am using to compare is going to come from those link above. That is the reason I am doing this. To show once and for all just how ****** MAX balance is for AI weapons. Please do not bring up MAX AV or AA weapons into this. They need their own work to get the math for them. I can not do the same tests and use the same numbers for AV and AA that I used for AI. Damage resistances make that impossible, having each AV weapon use its own rules does the same. There will also be NO TL : DR. With that out of the way, lets start. More or less the hard parts are over with the getting of the data and making it readable. This post is simply to put it all in once place and use it all against each other so see how is the best. Player skill and luck will change things but that is for the better and the worse. The facts are if something can't do well in perfect tests then it has less odds of doing well in the chaos of live gameplay. First up is this. A sum of the tests results for ranges between 0m and 30m. Please note that NC data is for 0m, 10m, 15m, and 20m and TR/VS data is for 0m, 10m, 20m, and 30m. I was forced to cut the NC data like so because of NC weapons failing to kill with entire ammo pools at 30m for about 3 of the 4 AI weapons. NC MAX AI weapons. Results in order of 0m 10m 15m 20m. Scattercannon- 0% miss _______12.24% miss____38.56% miss___53.7% miss 5.96 TTK_______6.57 TTK_______17.51 TTK ____31 TTK 1,677.85 DPS___ 1,522.07 DPS___571.1 DPS____ 322.58 DPS Hacksaw- 0% miss________39.63% miss ___58.35% miss____68.07% miss 6.01 TTK _______11.63 TTK _____32.33 TTK _____80.66 TTK 1,663.89 DPS ___859.84 DPS ____309.31 DPS ___123.97 DPS Grinder- 0% miss _______26.9% miss _____49.94% miss ___63.76% miss 2.16 TTK _______7.63 TTK ______16.1 TTK ______32.53 TTK 4,629.62 DPS ___1,310.61 DPS ___621.11 DPS ____307.4 DPS Mattock- 0% miss ______2.92% miss _____26.46% miss ____46.13% miss 6.3 TTK _______6.32 TTK ______7.52 TTK _______13.26 TTK 1,587.3 DPS ___1582.27 DPS ___1,329.78 DPS ___754.14 DPS TR MAX AI weapons.Results in order of 0m, 10m, 20m, 30m Heavy Cycler 0% miss________2.87% miss_____38.15% miss___59.02% miss 5.17 TTK_______5.4 TTK________8.67 TTK______16.4 TTK 1,934.23 DPS___1,851.85 DPS___1,153.4 DPS___609.75 DPS Onslaught 0% miss________<1% miss_______35.58% miss__52.81% miss 4.8 TTK________5.12 TTK_______11.03 TTK____17.34 TTK 2,083.33 DPS___1,953.12 DPS___906.61 DPS___576.7 DPS Mutilator 0% miss________<1% miss_______42.92% miss____55.54% miss 5.17 TTK_______5.25 TTK_______9.4 TTK________12.35 TTK 1,934.23 DPS___1,904.76 DPS___1,063.82 DPS___809.71 DPS Mercy 0% miss________<1% miss_______24.88% miss__41.17% miss 5.63 TTK_______5.3 TTK________10.5 TTK_____12.57 TTK 1,776.19 DPS___1,886.79 DPS___952.38 DPS___795.54 DPS VS MAX AI weapons. Results in order of 0m, 10m, 20m, 30m. Quasar 0% miss________<1% miss_______35.23% miss____51.61% miss 5.25 TTK_______5.34 TTK_______8.41 TTK_______14.31 TTK 1,904.76 DPS___1,872.65 DPS___1,189.06 DPS___698.81 Nebula 0% miss________<1% miss______35.36% miss____54.43% miss 4.85 TTK_______4.92 TTK_______9.82 TTK_______14.71 TTK 2,061.85 DPS___2,032.52 DPS___1,018.32 DPS___679.8 DPS Cosmos 0% miss________<1% miss_______39.2% miss_____53.98% miss 5.25 TTK_______5.28 TTK_______8.96 TTK_______12.11 TTK 1,904.76 DPS___1,893.93 DPS___1,116.07 DPS___825.76 DPS Blueshift 0% miss________<1% miss_______<1% miss_______12.63% miss 5.65 TTK_______5.79 TTK_______6.55 TTK_______11.88 TTK 1,769.91 DPS___1,727.11 DPS___1,526.71 DPS___841.75 DPS ------------------------------------------------------- Now to do a side by side for common ranges. Sadly NC weapons can't go to 30m but for 1 maybe 2 from ammo pool limits. So I will limit to 0m, 10m, and 20m for all 3 and only use TR and VS for 30m. The 15m tests for NC will be ignored as there are no TR/VS tests for the same range. The 30m tests I will assume NC is a no contest. The weapon order for the list will be as such. Default (Sact, Heavy C, Quasar) Fast firing (Hacksaw, Onslaught, Nebula) Big mag (Grinder, Mutilator, Cosmos) High aim (Mattock, Mercy, Blueshift) TTK- 0m_________10m________20m________30m TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC NC>TR>VS__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC TR>VS>NC__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC Totals 1st_____2nd__3rd NC- 1___0____15 TR- 5___11___0 VS- 10__5____1 No contest in my opinion VS MAXes take the lead hands down in TTK. DPS- 0m_________10m________20m________30m TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC NC>TR>VS__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC TR>VS<NC__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC Total 1st______2nd__3rd NC-1____0____15 TR- 5____11___0 VS- 10___5____1 Iv seen this before. I could do one for miss %, but this is depressing. NC as 1, just ONE, place it has a better TTK and DPS and that is point blank with Grinders. NC MAXes are **** according to this data. While TR is the middle of the road AI MAX without having to worry about much at all. VS on the other hand are GODS. Look at the data and you'll see that Tr and VS stats are so close that you can more than argue that they can be equal. Being .0X off in TTK is not a thing one can use to gloat. I ask again. How the hell does the VS have a bad MAX? No. No, the question is now a "HOW THE ****" not a "How the hell". From what Iv looked at in the GU updates the weapons they have now are damn close to what they had at launch! Some even said VS MAXes got nerfed. Where is the OP in NC MAXes? I don't see **** that even hints at OP. In fact I see NC MAXes as the worst of the 3 BY FAR! You know what? NC players have been saying this for months now. Now we have proof saying it. I wait for the debate. But if you guys don't bring your A game and do better than the **** site PS2-stats.com that CAN'T give current data then I feel sorry for this community. Spin this as you can. I hunger for the fight.
Your grinder 0m test appears to have a typo in there somewhere, impossible for it to be dealing triple the DPS of hacksaws at that range. (Maybe 6.16 TTK instead of 2.16?) Other than that, fantastic work as always.
Im not counting the amount of damage being sent but the damage to kill over a set time, TTK. Hacksaws need a reload at 0m to kill a MAX adding 4 seconds, Grinders do not. So the fire time for the Grinders to fire 13 shells would be it's TTK. Take a MAXes HP (assuming 10,000. Really something around 9,800-9,900 after small arms resistance) and divide it by the TTK then you should have the DPS for that target at that range. Hacksaws can send more damage down range from having a higher ROF, but if that damage doesn't hit then I don't count it for DPS numbers. You can't do more damage to a target than the targets effective HP and if you're not doing the damage then it is wasting ammo into the air.
The only number you need is their average K/D ratio per faction. SOE have this. TR max is UP right now because relative to the ZOE, they can have similar extra dmg output while fast moving and dodging with only -20% damage mitigation (despite what the tool tip says, the test on youtube video proof to be only 20%), but that doesn't matter because they're dodging a significant amount by fast strafing. Strafing is very effective, especially against low fps players. TR have to be locked down, that's similar to -100% damage mitigation because you will take 100% of every shot. Every freaking bullet will most likely hit you in the face. Not to mention the quick in/out safe room rocket instagib. Even if they buff the damage 5x more, I still won't use it. It's only good for anti air dual burster, and now bursters nerfed to ****. This ability is total trash!!!! This game balance is unbelievable bad....
The only problem I have with your numbers, OP, is that you're ignoring killing potential against literally every other type of target. If NC MAXs are less effective against other MAXs, but still near-instantly massacre literally everyone else in the game, that means they slaughter people in 9/10 cases. Just sayin, MAX balance isn't purely about MAX v. MAX
To balance ZOE, remove speed buff. They do more damage, they take more damage, that's balance enough, But right now they have 2 buffs, damage and speed while only 1 downside, the -20% mitigation. I think the NC max shield is fine, but it should block 100% damage at first rank, but each rank will regenerate shield faster and bigger health. The only unbalance equation is the VS and TR.
What I understood of that data was that most Maxes massacre everything 9/10. NC maxes are just worse at it all around (unless you have dual grinders under 0m) hence the idea that the balance is off.
I don't think MAX v Infantry should be used to much to balance MAXes. MAXes have costs like any vehicle but share a res pool with far more things than vehicles making a MAXes cost higher for needing a more valuable res. Even then you have to see that NC MAXes have hard ammo limits. 6 shells in a mag and 12 total without Grinders or extened mags is not much when you have to use 2-6 for each infantry then suffer a 3+ second reload. Point blank is nothing more than click click and one dead player, but just take it to 10m and have someone moving then you may even need everything you got if the pellet spread wants to hate you. TR and VS MAXes against infantry not only have a near instant 0m TTK but have damn small TTKs up to 30m ranges. Then there are ammo pools. All TR and VS MAXes start with 9 mags each arm, NC get 10. But that means NC MAXes have only 60 shells while TR and VS MAXes have rounds in the 300-400 area. 60 shells is not a lot when you have to use 4+ at a time for each target and get overkill to make a kill certain/remove luck. Then you have lite vehicles that AI weapons can hurt. I have killed 2 ESFs with Mattocks in my playtime as a NC MAX. One was abandoned and the other a suicide dive bomb I got lucky on. NC MAXes just can't do real damage to lite vehicles, TR and VS MAXes can thanks to weapon type alone.
And that helps how? Slugs take 20 hits to kill a MAX. using slugs would make all of the NC MAX data worse. Also if you add slugs to one faction what cert option should I give the others to keep tests fair?
For anything past 10 metres slugs should be assumed otherwise why bother even posting it. Everyone knows buckshot is ineffective at range, it's old news and that is why hey give you the option of slugs.
put it on reddit too, Chewy102...so we maybe can be heard.. i can only say, i was so upset about Nc Max perfomance, that after 60 Br as nc, i rerolled Tr. i was sick of our "godly" max. or with other words, i was sick of being limited by limitation of nc max.
you've obviously never used them, because they suck monster balls. you might, if the heavens smile upon you, get one infantry kill with full mattock magazines beyond 10m with slug ammo. slug ammo also has to be swapped at a terminal. so anybody recommending slug ammo as a viable alternative to mercies is pretty much full-on reta.rded.
Um... could it be because slugs literally miss everything at 10 or below 10m for no reason and don't make anything above 10m even the slightest bit more accurate than without slugs? You don't have to believe me. Start a BR1 NC char and try it out in VR. For some logic defying reason they are not more accurate at longer ranges, and ACTUALLY/BAFFLINGLY/STUPIDLY/LOGIC DEFYINGLY less accurate at anything below 10m. I wish I was joking.
Go away you troll. Even if what you said last is true NC have to spend a lot of certs to get their max to be effective at all ranges similar to an uncerted VS or NC max. And you are blatantly lying.
I I can assure you that I am not lying, however you are absolutely correct about the fact you shouldn't have to spend more certs for the same effectiveness.
I like how people can argue against this. Some people will deny or outright lie to others and themselves to defend claims. There can be no bias options when you compare stats.
Maxes with slugs will still under-perform compared to the others AI weapons. In fact, it gives up the very minor difference in close range TTK to be mediocre at it and still remain mediocre at medium range.
