MAX Balance Part 1: NC

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Chewy102, Jul 4, 2013.

  1. Chewy102

    (This project is taking far longer than I thought so Im spreading the 3 factions MAXes AI weapons over 3 threads. Im not trying to spam, this **** just takes a long *** time to do.)

    Math used.
    I don't feel like typing all of my math for every weapon. So I am giving my math here and just typing the end bits for miss %, TTK, and DPS to save time and my fingers.
    ROF / 60 = RPS X 2 = Dual RPS
    Total Shots X Damage Per Round = Possible Damage - 10,000(assumed MAX HP) = Missed Damage
    (Missed Damage / Possible Damage) X 100 = Miss %
    Shots fired / Dual RPS = Fire Time + Reloads = TTK
    10,000(MAX HP) / TTK = DPS

    Weapons stats.
    http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry

    NC MAX AI weapons.

    Scattercannon


    Stats
    Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
    Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
    Damage Drop:8
    Short Reload:3s
    Long Reload:3.8s
    Fire Rate:180

    MAX v MAX
    0m- 13
    10m- 17, 17, 16 (16.66 average)
    15m- 36, 34, 40 (36.66 average)
    20m- 72

    Hacksaw


    Stats
    Max Damage:125x6 before 10m
    Min Damage:45x6 after 18m
    Damage Drop:8
    Short Reload:3.2s
    Long Reload:4s
    Fire Rate:209

    MAX v MAX
    0m- 14
    10m- 28, 24, 24 (25.33 average)
    15m- 56, 60 (58 average)
    20m- 116

    Grinder


    Stats
    Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
    Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
    Damage Drop:8
    Short Reload:3.4s
    Long Reload:4.3s
    Fire Rate:180

    MAX v MAX
    0m- 13
    10m- 20, 20, 20 (20 average)
    15m- 42, 48 (45 average)
    20m- 92

    Mattock


    Stats
    Max Damage:112x6 before 10m
    Min Damage:70x6 after 30m
    Damage Drop:2.1
    Short Reload:3s
    Long Reload:3.8s
    Fire Rate:180

    MAX v MAX
    0m- 15
    10m- 16, 15, 15 (15.33 average)
    15m- 23, 23, 21 (22.33 average)
    20m- 36, 32, 34 (34 average)

    Results in order of 0m 10m 15m 20m.
    Scattercannon-
    0% miss _______12.24% miss____38.56% miss___53.7% miss
    5.96 TTK_______6.57 TTK_______17.51 TTK ____31 TTK
    1,677.85 DPS___ 1,522.07 DPS___571.1 DPS____ 322.58 DPS

    Hacksaw-
    0% miss________39.63% miss ___58.35% miss____68.07% miss
    6.01 TTK _______11.63 TTK _____32.33 TTK _____80.66 TTK
    1,663.89 DPS ___859.84 DPS ____309.31 DPS ___123.97 DPS

    Grinder-
    0% miss _______26.9% miss _____49.94% miss ___63.76% miss
    2.16 TTK _______7.63 TTK ______16.1 TTK ______32.53 TTK
    4,629.62 DPS ___1,310.61 DPS ___621.11 DPS ____307.4 DPS

    Mattock-
    0% miss ______2.92% miss _____26.46% miss ____46.13% miss
    6.3 TTK _______6.32 TTK ______7.52 TTK _______13.26 TTK
    1,587.3 DPS ___1582.27 DPS ___1,329.78 DPS ___754.14 DPS


    Opinions-
    The only NC MAX AI weapon worth a damn without certs is the Grinder. Get dual Grinders and nothing will stand in front of you but even they are limited to point blank (under 10m) or risk losing a MAX fight. But if you add cert options (not slugs, I hate slugs) then a dual Mattock MAX will rule above all other NC MAX weapons. Mattocks may need to most ammo to kill a MAX point blank but their range by FAR make up for that limit. Mattocks are the ONLY NC MAX AI weapon that compares to the AI weapons on either TR or VS MAXes.

    And to the opposite of what most forums warriors want you to think. Hacksaws are **** now, pure and simple. They are in my opinion the worst weapon a NC MAX can get unless you're incapable of clicking your mouse more than once.



    I have tests done for all MAX AI weapons but only have done the math (in this detail) for NC so far. The videos of them can be found in my YT channel if you're willing to get a sneak peak at what all MAX AI weapons can do. This is also not something I can burn through and just making this page took 2-3 hours if not more in trying to get everything right. In after thought doing all of this past midnight isn't the best of ideas.

    Please note that I do plan on doing the same for TR and VS MAX AI weapons. They will just have to wait a bit. In the mean time use this data as you will. But if another half-***** ******** contest starts without one side showing proof then man am I going to be pissed.
    • Up x 9
  2. Bankrotas

    Wait wait, first thing, isn't damage drop now at 10 meters?
  3. ComradeHavoc

    lol grinders only 250 certs XD
  4. Dethfield

    IME, all of the NC MAX scattercannons are viable and are really only slight variations, with the exception of the grinder which are my least favorite by far (very inaccurate, long reload time). I do agree with your assessment of the mattocks, though. Excellent weapons overall.

    One thing, however. Too many NC players dismiss MAX slugs too quickly. They are pretty much the "mid-range" AI weapon for our MAX's. They hit fairly hard even at max range, and are reasonably accurate as long as you carefully aim and time your shots. This part is essential to using them. Firing scattercannons as fast as possible increases the cone of fire after the first shot, so when trying to hit someone at longer distance with slugs, you need to wait slightly longer between each shot to "reset" the CoF. After learning this, i have killed countless enemies at 30-60 meters in only 2 shots (firing both cannons twice). I even managed to do it at an enemy about 120 meters away once. It should also be noted that the TTK for slugs at close range (0-10m) is very similar to buckshot for all scattercannons. Slugs at this range do 500 damage per slug. Which means no enemy save a MAX will survive more than 3 of them (most cases, it will only take two). I will admit that slugs are not quite as ideal against enemy MAX's in CQC situations, though.

    I was fairly surprised when i found i preferred hacksaws with slugs as opposed to "buckshot" because it combined the automatick fire while pretty much solving the short effective range of the weapons. The above tips work with them too. With the NCM1 scattercannons and Mattocks, slugs work very well with these weapons' accuracy, but also work well with buckshot too. When i decided to work on getting thr auraxium medals for all NC MAX scatters, i assumed i would return to the hacksaws when i was finished. At this point though, i may actually use the mattocks or scattercannons instead.
    • Up x 1
  5. Whiskey11

    I will concur, the worst part about Mattocks with Slugs is low ammo count. With extended magazines I think the mattocks, period, slugs or otherwise, is more than capable. I know I was trolling some VS in a Biodome earlier using mattocks and slugs. I think when used correctly the NC max is pretty potent still. Certainly not as giggly laughable as it was, but far more balanced to where the class should be. I'm still trying to figure out my TR max, even with Mercies still the lockdown ability is pretty awful but that isn't this thread! :p
    • Up x 1
  6. Deathcapt

    I've been using extended Mag Scatter Guns and been fairly effective with them. I've heard the Mattocks are generally the go-to weapon as that little bit of extra drop off and cone improvements make a difference when engaging enemy MAX units.
  7. Whiskey11

    I messed around with Scatts after coming back (Monday I came back from my break from the game) and they are still usable but not anywhere close to where they were. I didn't try them with extended mags though. Nice thing about the Mattocks with shot ammo is the cone is pretty narrow and tends to concentrate fire better. Much easier to hit a target with it when the enemy is completely within the aiming point. Strange though that I encountered a bug earlier today in which I couldn't hit a VS player standing basically still from 5m with it though... More VS trickery! :D
  8. Chewy102

    The reason I don't like slugs it that they don't give options but take options away. It takes 20 slugs to kill a MAX point blank. That's both arms with extended mags for any weapon or one extended mag for a dual Grinder. The extra range for infantry does not counter that when you also have to stop, sit, and then do a slow controlled fire to hit anything. Low mag size with good miss chance is not a good weapon in my opinion.

    Ignore the weapons cost for now.
    Slugs -150 each
    Extended mag- 500 each
    Total- 1,300 certs to make a slug loadout effective for infantry at the cost of anti MAX effectiveness.

    Not only are you going to do less damage to MAXes, but lite vehicles are also going to be harder to deal with. Shot has a gimped range but it can deal with anything that gets in that range. Slugs don't really have an "OH ****!" option like shot.
    • Up x 2
  9. Whiskey11


    That depends entirely on how you play. While a Scattmax is ultimately more offensive than it is defensive, I see the Mattocks/Slug MAX as significantly more of a support class. Certainly there are limitations but there is an advantage to be had in otherwise removing the "ohh crap!" moments. At pointblank range, provided you can hit what you are aiming at, it is just as lethal as shot is but you have more versatility at range. Slower firing is necessary to maintain range. It's still reasonably viable and certainly better than trying to hit something at range with shot and praying you kill them.
  10. toxs

    Max weapons types: AV AI AA
    There was never a legit reason (besides profit) to allow a MAX to double up on one category of weapon types. Now we will endure a lovely nerf/buff coaster for the remaining years of PS2.
  11. Chewy102

    Big bullets hurt. That's a reason for AV and AA weapons being of use for AI. 2 out of 3 seems good to me. AI weapons should stay with AI and lite vehicles only, AV should be meh for AI and AA, AA should be **** for AV but meh for AI.

    I wonder what PS2 would be like if MAXes got the PS1 small arms resistances. Meaning you need AV weapons to even hurt them. But without AP ammo for infantry then that wont happen.
    • Up x 1
  12. Liewec123

    as soon as they allow lockdown to anchor and unanchor quicker dual lockdowned onslaughts will be freaking AMAZING at holding doorways, they shred anything in 20m far faster than an nc at point blank and with barely any reload, thats going to be my setup if they make lockdown usable :)
  13. basilbroketail


    I would KILL for that, but that wouldn't EVER happen given today's environment ( ala Ap rounds against vechs and regular lead doing 0 damage to maxes) . If people have to "select" different types of bullets even they'll start rioting . Never mind trying to pull out an AV weapon . Gotta dumb it down so that the game seems " fairer" .

    Frankly I'm in your camp, if you want to do AI work you get AI weapons ( nil or 0 dmg to anything else), AV weapons ONLY for AV and 0 AI , AA damage, AA weapons ONLY for AA and 0 AI, AVetc . This way you can have maxes designed to go after other maxes but weak against infantry , none of this " ill grab AI and it will double as AV/ Antimax as well " junk .

    This goes for the general playerbase as well . You know how many times I've seen players pull out a launcher or explosives when a max is around ? Never mind flash/ emp / concussion grenades, even one AV grenade bypasses armor and I've only seen that thrown 3 -4 times .

    I've probably got close 40 days played in total 60-70% of that time = as a max across 3-6 servers for all empires ( i won't 4th empire anyhow) . Run with a small team since PS1.

    I'd say your top 3-5% of the playerbase ACTUALLY does that ( you know use missles and explosives against maxes) . Most of the rest ?

    Zombiemode bullethoses . I'm starting think PS1 players > PS2 atm . Given the fact that I haven't ever seen people actually pulling out AV weapons when a max is around frequently . In PS1, even as a max player I'd always seen explosives tossed in my face, from the RR , to deci's to boomers, more then half the time. If not then they were AP rounds that shredded armor like crazy ( JH triple shot was fercious with AP rounds, a MCG just needed part of a mag with AP rounds to kill any max ) .

    I still see about 95% of HA's just trying to bullet hose me down. MANY LA's trying to just shotgun a NC max UPFRONT without tossing any sort of explosives, infiltrators who would just pull a SMG to duel with a ZOE VS max face to face. So
    then of course you'll have people whining instead of using the tools they were given to counter such threats anyhow . Never mind trying to kill the engineering pet, I'm surprised when people actually gun after the engineering pet instead of the max these days .

    If you made maxes invunerable to bullets, I doubt the playerbase would actually adapt anyhow . Always look for the lowest common denominator . Got to remember, the best players are the ones who adapt and see what holes in their game that they'll need to fix, that is your top 1-5% players . That is not the status quo unfortunately .
  14. Dethfield


    My experience has been quite different. I have auraxium medals for both of my hacksaws, and about 800 kills or so for each hacksaw was done with slugs. The slugs were very effective against any non-max infantry at ranges up about 60-70 meters or so, depending on the situation. It was a bit of a learning curve, but not only did i learn to use them effectively, but I learned to carefully aim my shots more instead of going full-auto all the time with the hacksaws, which also helped with ammo consumption. Hard numbers are not the only thing you should take into account when evaluating things like this. In-game experience plays a big part as well.

    As for the cert cost, we all know MAX's in general are cert-intensive, the NC MAX even more so. Besides, getting 1300 certs i fairly easy.
  15. Alarox

    So basically...

    Grinder for 0-10m, Mattock for 10-20m, Scattercannon if you want a little more versatility between close/medium range, Hacksaws are a gimmick that are the worst at long range and realistically you'll do better with Grinders and extended mags.
    • Up x 1
  16. DashRendar

    Basically yeah... Only TR and VS still think Hacksaws are good :p Actually I've been coming to like one stock Grinder and one extended mag Mattock both using shot. That's about the best post GU11 loadout I've found. Very versatile (for the NC Max) and you can kill Maxes without TOO much trouble...
  17. Leonidas423

    Well, technically, in terms of sheer killing power (Meaning you don't miss a shot) Hacksaws ARE still the best. If you don't miss a shot, you instagib regular infantry anyway, and it takes the same amount of shots from a Scatmax as it does from a Haxmax to kill a MAX, that 5 extra damage per pellet doesn't do much. Plus, the Hacksaw has a faster firing rate, so in theory, it IS the best AI weapon in the NC. Assuming that you don't miss a shot. Assuming that the other guy doesn't just walk away. Assuming you are in melee range.

    Scat: 130X6X2= 1560/5= 312 X 7 = <2000
    Hacksaw: 125X6X2= 1500/5= 300 x7 = <2000

    Takes the same amount of shots to kill, plus the Hacksaw has a higher Rate of Fire. In theory.
  18. Alarox

    Grinders still damage more damage/magazine though. DPS isn't as much of a factor at the ranges these will reliably hit enough for consistent damage.
  19. Leonidas423

    Not arguing for the Hacksaw here. Although for some reason, when you run into a VS or TR MAX, they actually walk TOWARDS you, instead of away. I respond by crouching, aiming for their heads, and blasting away at their faces, killing them in a few shots. THEY respond by trolling the forums for a NC MAX nerf. That is probably the only situation where the Hacksaw is the best weapon of choice for the NC MAX.
  20. Deladin

    I tossed my mattocks in the gutter. There range is great, I could pick off weakened infantry from 20-30 meters away if the were too stupid to move after the first 3-4 hits tagged them(in general infantry are stupid this way, I have more 3-400 meter sniper kills with my Warden then anything else, because they are to dumb to move after the first 2 shots rail them...it is so fun counter sniping infils with a Warden) but in close range, the mattocks suffer heavily. The truth is ALL the AI maxes have extremely short TTK in point blank ranges, where a TR or VS max will pop infantry faster then you can blink just like an NC max. So head to head at point blank against another max, you need all the extra DPS you can get, especially given the insane reload times. an NC max might do the most damage in the shortest amount of time (but not by a whole lot) but that short time is very short and the reload time is very long, so you will die during the reload unless you have a well certed shield.