Lynx 2.0 is good. However, Lynx 1.0 should be brought back.

Discussion in 'Light Assault' started by asdfPanda, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. Nakar

    Anyone who would trade what the new Lynx has for anything that brings it closer to the GD-7F/Serpent or the old Lynx is ripping themselves off. But I guess people just aren't noticing the absurd handling on the 125 damage model weapons the TR is getting now, or aren't good enough to use them properly.

    Why would you trade losing 1v1 against another carbine user in a fantasy scenario that pretty much never actually happens for the ability to see said other carbine user and vaporize him before he even gets close to you? And if he gets the jump on you it doesn't matter if he's using the VX6-7 or the NS-11C, he will win that fight because he got the jump on you. This isn't some random fact, guys like [DA]VonicVS have basically the exact same performance with fast-firing hip carbines and the 143/652 NS-11C. The new Lynx has plenty of DPS.
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  2. asdfPanda

    It isn't about the dps. It's more about the better hipfire, better damage per magazine, and 0.75x ads move speed. I would still take the old Lynx over the new Lynx.

    The new Lynx is good. I simply like the old Lynx over the new Lynx. I know the new Lynx has advantages over the old one at range and handling. I like the old Lynx's advantages more.
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  3. Pie Chasm

    What advantage does the new Lynx have over the Serpent?

    Is it accuracy? No.

    Is it DPS/TTK? No.

    Is it movement speed? No.

    What is this invisible benefit you have to using the new Lynx over the Serpent?
  4. Iridar51

    Sadly, we don't yet have Lynx 2.0's recoil stats, but it strikes me as a very controllable weapon, a lot more so than Serpent / GD-7F / Lynx 1.0
  5. Pie Chasm

    Ok, fair enough... until somebody musters the non-laziness to actually extract the values again (Or did they obfuscate them now?, I haven't tried for the past year.. somehow I doubt it).

    For arguments sake, consider DPS:

    Does there exist a range so that the new Lynx has better DPS than the faction alternatives (serpent/GD-7F)?

    Actually there does, it has more DPS past 50 meters.... (relevant for a CQC carbine, right?), until then its TTK is higher and DPS is lower.

    It has a slightly better moving while aiming CoF (.15 vs. .20 and .35) as well, which would be great if it still had the movement speed, yet in the CQC role it occupies amongst all other TR carbines, it's moot.

    The more I look at the stat changes, the more this change looks like a middle finger.
  6. Iridar51

    They're not obfuscated. There was this one time when they moved weapon stats for own convenience and we couldn't datamine them anymore, but then they either disclosed stats' new location, or moved them again. Not sure which, but weapon stats should be dataminable now, I just don't know how to do it.
    *Shoulder shrug*. If DPS is the sum of your ambition, then yes, Lynx 2.0 is inferior to the GD-7F and Serpent, as was Lynx 1.0.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, right now the DPS difference between Lynx and GD-7F/Serpent is ~5%, and what Lynx loses in straight up DPS, it gains five times in effective range. It has very low recoil compared to other CQC carbines, and is much easier to get headshots with, as well as kills past 20-30m, so it's a lot more versatile carbine than its competition, who has to **** itself in order to get that 5% DPS advantage.
  7. Pie Chasm

    So your argument is that the smaller moving ADS CoF and recoil makes it competitive in [20,30] and that outweighs it being worse than either two in [0,20)?

    You are understating the DPS difference intentionally by using the higher value as the baseline...

    It's 120.8k vs. 113.6k DPS.

    That isn't a small difference. That's huge. It's a bigger difference than adding 40 to the RoF of a 167 damage weapon.

    Obviously it's more than a 45 RoF difference on a 143 damage weapon, since the old Lynx had more DPS.
  8. Iridar51

    Fine, 6% then. Still far from being the huge deal you make it out to be.

    It's DPS is 6% worse, while the recoil is like two times better.

    My argument is that, yes, in a theoretical situation where two people stand in front of each other and start shooting at the same time the Lynx will lose. By a margin of 6%. In practice, Lynx is much easier to use thanks to the controllable recoil, which results in more bullets hitting at all ranges that require aiming.

    GD-7F / Serpent = brute force.
    Lynx = finesse.

    You're arguing from emotional grounds. If you were as impartial and objective to the issue as me - I didn't care nor for the old Lynx, nor do I love or hate the new one - you would see that Lynx gained more than it lost with the redesign, granted not in the direction the players wanted, which was GD-7F / Serpent with 40 round mag and 75% ADS.
  9. Pie Chasm

    Hilarious, because you're the one who is "the recoil feels better", while my argument is based solely on DPS/TTK values.

    I guess numbers can be emotional to some people.
  10. Iridar51

    That's unfair. I only have to resort to "feelings" because I don't have access to numbers.
    The fact that Lynx has better recoil is undeniable, the only question is "by how much". Your DPS/TTK values are completely worthless outside of the perfect world you pretend we live in without taking recoil into consideration.

    Fine, you're on. I'll interrogate the Lynx and she will tell me what her approximate recoil stats are.

    While I'm at it, would you clarify your position please, what are we arguing about:
    Lynx 1.0 vs Lynx 2.0 or GD-7F / Serpent vs Lynx 2.0?
  11. Pie Chasm

    If you really care enough to do that, then I am obliged to humor you.

    Lynx 2.0 vs. Serpent/GD-7F.
  12. Iridar51

    It appears you have been right. Recoil on the Lynx appears to be worse than both GD-7F's and Serpent's.

    Here are rough estimates:
    GD-7F vs Lynx: Lynx has ~10% more recoil per second
    Serpent vs Lynx: Lynx has ~38% more recoil per second
    Lynx has ~9° recoil angle. Not sure about it's variance.

    Until we see the stats, we will not know for sure which carbine really has better recoil pattern, as my research provided very rough results.
  13. Pie Chasm

    If the recoil were the same you would expect the ratio of the RoFs to indicate the ratio of recoil.

    So it definitely has more than the Serpent, or else it would be comparable to a 909/845 ~ 8% difference

    It suggests that the GD-7F has comparable recoil.

    In any case, even if your findings are completely accurate, further supporting my argument, the Lynx is not as good as either weapon and it should not be so.

    The earlier Lynx occupied the perfect space and gave TR more flavor over the other factions; it traded damage for extra mobility.

    It lost its mobility and further damage......

    I think the real reason for this change was to push the new carbines and laziness. They can't be arsed to modify existing classes, which is probably necessary for different bullet damage values, so they probably couldn't, without effort, make a bullet damage value between 125-143, or a RoF past 909.
  14. Iridar51

    Earlier it was a Jaguar with 50 extra RoF and worse recoil =\
    Jaguar is still there to fill that niche.

    The problem with damage values between 125 and 143 is that they don't change BTK value, so even if the Lynx did 142 damage it would often not mean much, since it's still gonna be BTK of 8.
  15. Pie Chasm

    It could if they changed the damage decrease to a different range, so that the weapon could fill a niche, but after having the game crash again... I think I'm kind of done.. (you may now all rejoice).
  16. asdfPanda

    I find that people place too little emphasis on rate of fire. ~50 rpm is often the difference between the VX6-7 and the Serpent, the Carnage AR and the GR-22, and the Orion and the SVA-88. Of course there are other factors in play, but rpm is a large determining factor for the performance of a weapon when discussing weapons with similar damage models. RPM shouldn't be downplayed.

    The old Lynx was better than the Jaguar in CQC because of its superior hipfire and rpm. The Jaguar was better than the old Lynx at medium ranges because of its damage dropoff and recoil. They were similar, but they still had differences that mattered.

    I understand that SOE is trying to differentiate certain weapons. However, was it really necessary to change a specific weapon that fulfilled a certain role(CQC)?

    The old Lynx is better than the new Lynx in CQC, but the new Lynx is better than the old Lynx at medium ranges. The old Lynx fared better against the Serpent/GD-7F, however.

    The new Lynx fills an unnecessary niche that the Jaguar and TRAC variants already fill. The new Lynx can't compete with the old Lynx in the niche of CQC. Therefore, isn't the new Lynx a little redundant? I'm not sure.

    I would like to be able to choose between not only the Jaguar and the new Lynx. I would like to be able to choose between the Jaguar, the new Lynx, and the old Lynx.
  17. Iridar51

    Prior to the stealth buff (which I consider to be a bug) Lynx had the same standard hip fire as the other carbines, while the Jaguar had tighter hip fire CoFs, same as VX6-7.
  18. asdfPanda

    Hmm. I guess the bug was fixed then :(
  19. Pruto

    Or you know, people can handle the Serpent and GD7F fine. What's more is that those guns are actually good at killing heavies through their shields before they can do anything. Lynx is pretty garbage at killing the main infantry class of PS2 quickly. It's also worse in CQC as time goes on. It may have SMG level hipfire CoF, but it's hipfire bloom is still at the level of a 143 weapon with .1

    What this means is that at a certain point in time in your fantasy scenario (lol) of a 1v1 between a GD7F user and Lynx user, the Lynx user's hip crosshairs will be significantly larger. Because while it starts out with a smaller CoF, it will bloom more rapidly because it still retains the bloom trait of a 143 weapon that is now firing at SMG levels of rate of fire.

    The other issue with the new Lynx is that it's too situational to be a good carbine imo. I remember the old Lynx and how it was obviously a weapon predisposed to CQC, but it could still handle itself well in other ranges and other situations. With the Lynx, I find myself running away because there's a heavy looking at me, which is something that never bothers me with other high DPS carbines. Or running away from anyone that catches me beyond a certain range, something I also didn't mind with the old Lynx. I seem to plan my play around what I can't do with the Lynx, rather than what I can do with it, which is a pretty narrow category compared to other carbines.

    More than that TR carbine selection has only become further constrained with the latest patch, with the new focus on creating extremely situational carbines to define a role for the TR carbine arsenal. The promised 167 carbine ended up being only suitable for cautious rooftop sniping with it's 550 RPM. Which is not exactly a super niche role given that I could do already this with the AMC or an NS11C fitted for range. The change of the Lynx also removed another versatile gun from TR's armory to give something that is only viable in a narrower band of circumstances. Meanwhile, SOE seemed to have no problem adding new swiss-army knife style weapons to the NC and the VS. The Bandit in particular is everything that the old Lynx was, but better, with 167 damage and a recoil pattern that isn't too punishing for being a .75 ADS weapon.
  20. Iridar51

    It doesn't, Lynx has the same 1.5 / 2.0 hip fire CoFs as other carbines.