Long read, Rabid fixes: Construction

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RabidIBM, May 17, 2021.

  1. RabidIBM

    There are a few things that need major overhauls, I figure I'll put myself out there, and talk about how I would fix them. I'll start with a topic very familiar to me: construction. So, what is it supposed to achieve? What's wrong with it? And how would I fix it?

    Intended functions:
    -Variety: Creating new bases for us to fight at is intense on development resources, requires us all to re-download a continent in a patch, which I'm sure is intense on those resources, and creates risks of pissing off the entire player base if either something very popular gets removed, or if new content is problematic. However, players who've been doing this a while will find the existing bases become tired, and over played. How do we balance these competing concerns? Of putting enough time, testing, and polish into new bases before implementing, while also doing so often enough to keep the game fresh, and do all this on a shoe string budget? Enter construction. An opportunity for some of the more experienced and creative members of the community to be put to the task of creating new arenas for the players to fight for, and have new experiences. If the base design was bad, 1 the builders wear the blame, not the devs, 2 if it's hated, just blow it up and start over.

    -Inter-base play: When one base is close to falling, some of the attacking faction will show some initiative, and get sunderers, or other spawns, set up at the next base, so that they can seamlessly transition from completing the capture on one base, to initiating the capture on the next base. Their initiative is admirable, as is the efficiency it creates. Unfortunately this robs the player base of the chance to have a battle between the bases, where vehicles matter more than infantry, before this field battle eventually goes one way or the other, and we settle back into an infantry fight.
    Regarding this point, a few years ago now, Commander Cyrious posted a suggested "hex-lattice hybrid" model, which while intriguing, would probably have been expensive to develop and balance. I feel that the one minute bases, such as Berjess Overlook and Lowland Trading Post, do a reasonable job of being the budget version of this concept. Here's a link to the vid:

    The Problems:
    -Irrelevance: There are only a handful of places where player made bases (PMBs) can be built, and actually have an impact on the flow of battle. The no-build zones are enormous, and often overlap, forcing builders to the side, or out of the game play entirely. Even when there are gaps between the no-build zones, any number of builders have attempted to make road-block bases, only to discover that enemies can use any number of paths to get around the road block, making the base irrelevant. Due to this irrelevance, allied platoon leaders (PLs) are likely to ignore a PMB which is under attack, as saving it would cost them time, and offer little to advance their own agenda. As such, many rookie builders have put time, effort, and passion into their would-be roadblock, only to have it get taken apart by a single digit number of enemy tanks, when no friendlies show up to assist them.

    -Balance: There are numerous balance issues regarding construction. Much of what it does is either over or under powered. Much of what counters construction is either over or under powered. In a similar category, much of what it does is incredibly situational, for reasons I'll get into in the solutions section. Things I'll touch on in the solutions section of balance will be pain spires, auto turrets, the flail, cortium bombs, module clumping, bunkers and howler mining lasers.

    -The learning curve: Other play styles have learning curves which while long and steep, are at least fun to climb. While learning infantry play, you get to shoot people, while learning vehicle play, you get to shoot vehicles, etc. In the world of construction, the learning curve is a massive pain where the sun doesn't shine, and I actually don't remember what ultimately sold me on climbing it. You spend a long time figuring out how to even use the placement mechanics, being frustrated by all the reasons you can't place buildings in places, being frustrated by buildings not placing where you intended, being frustrated by the flow of battle not playing out as you thought it would, making you irrelevant, being frustrated when trolls come to dunk on you while you try to learn, and being frustrated by having to wait for a bad building to complete before you can delete it. In short, other learning curves are at least fun, building's learning curve is frustrating.

    -The pay walls: I personally got through the pay walls with my credit card, at the time I was a single guy with 90k salary, so I didn't care. Also I had a little C2H5OH helping me make decisions, and by a little I mean a lot. Not everyone has such luxuries. Many of our player base are teenagers, who don't even have their first job yet, so the cost of the pay walls needs to be fair to them. Some of the buildings cost as much as 1500 certs, just for that one building, and there are some 30ish of these pay walls. While you could pass on a couple of the buildings and still make good bases, such as vehicle ramps or faction banners, most of them serve a critical function, which a PMB is just incomplete without.

    -Current construction sites: Many of the intended locations for builders to build are utter garbage, but not all of them. Some of the planned construction sites are good, so I'll go over what makes a good construction site in the solutions section.

    My solutions:
    -Relevance: This is probably the easiest to fix, so I'll start here. Add more 1 minute bases, maybe even some that aren't just push lanes? Easy starts would be the places on Indar which used to be bases, but got deleted years ago. Adding 1 minute bases here wouldn't significantly alter the flow of battle if not built on, as it was probably going to take a minute to move all the sunderers up anyways, but these would create new construction locations that matter, bringing much needed relevance to the construction game. On Hossin we could remove many of those "construction sites" which have been there since 2014, supposedly with the intention of becoming proper bases later. Take these construction sites, clear them off, and make them actual construction sites which players can build on. Currently I don't build at all on Hossin other than router bases, because there is nowhere to build a fort that honestly matters. On Esamir, it would be nice if the ruins of derelict bases could be brought into the construction game. Personally, I find the concept of using PMBs to reactivate the dead bases to be fascinating, but irrelevant in all but a couple cases. Don't touch Amerish. It is currently the most functional continent (I can go over why in another thread, this one is already big).

    -The pay walls: Another simple one, lower the pay walls. Do so with particular focus on the buildings a player should be starting with. In particular, the costs of the spawn tube and sky shield module need to be manageable for a player who isn't sure if they really want to do with construction thing.

    -The learning curve: This one comes down to some quality of life improvements:
    -Do a better job of explaining the building placement controls. I routinely explain these to new builders, that means the game doesn't.
    -Allow the deletion of buildings while they are still under construction. If a placement is bad, the builder knows within seconds, and usually subsequent buildings are built in order, don't make builders wait for a building to finish before they can delete it.
    -Add a "pencil mode", which allows builders to lock the potential building in place, and inspect before committing. This is already possible with infils, but that's a bug, make it official.
    -Display upkeep costs on the construction console, most players have no idea what costs how much upkeep because the game doesn't say so. I had to build and delete every building with a 2 minute timer on my phone to prove it.

    -Balance:
    -I'll start with something that is often complained about, but not actually a problem: automated turrets. What these do accomplish is to prevent 1-3 players from trashing a base before a good fight can be had at it. What they don't do is stand up to any significant number of attacks who brought the correct gear. When platoon fights start at PMBs, the defensive turrets are typically down in 2 minutes, but sometimes as much as 5 minutes. After that, it's up to the players to defend the base, not the auto turrets. Auto turrets buy time for a fight to properly develop at a PMB, but don't influence the ultimate outcome of the fight. Auto turrets are fine, leave them alone.

    -Bunkers: These are one of the freebie buildings everyone starts with access to, yet they've always been a problem. Even before cortium bombs, the infantry console inside them was a hazard. Any experienced builder who wants a console deploys a sunderer. No builder who knows what they are doing adds a bunker for the console. The fact that it's nearly impossible to line other buildings up with is forgivable, it's a stand alone building, it's in it's own niece. The junk sight lines out of it need to be revisited, the death trap that is the roof needs to be revisited, but I don't mind it being stand alone, just get rid of the console.

    -Pain spires: These are another commonly complained about building, and there is some reason. Players don't like it when die without being shot because they entered the no-no zone. That said, they do serve a vital function, which PMBs would be useless without, they can be used to restrict access to the spawn room. This is needed at PMBs for the same reason it's need at developer made bases, spawn camping sucks. What also sucks is taking this anti-spawn camping building, and placing in choke points which shouldn't need special protection just to annoy enemy players. So how would I fix this? Well, I would combine the pain spire and the elysium spawn tube into one building, called the elysium spawn tube. This way, if placed inside of a building, the spawn tube makes a spawn room out of the building not just by enabling spawns, but by restricting access to the build as well. Since the spawn tube has a placement restriction of 200m to another spawn tube already, and the silo has a power range of 100m, this would mean only one pain field is allowed per base.

    -Module clumping: In an earlier version of construction, there were a lot of restrictions on what modules could be placed close to what other modules, however much of this was done away with. If I remember correctly, there were two groups, call them A group and B group, and no two modules from within A group could be placed close to each other. For example, structure shield module and sky shield module were in the same grouping, so they couldn't be placed close to each other. This meant that builders had to make tough choices, which modules got to be sheltered inside of buildings, and which ones were placed outdoors and vulnerable. No longer. Now the only restriction on modules is that they can't be placed close to the exact same type of module. As such, I can put 4 modules and a spawn tube all inside the same pillbox, making a comically over-powered building.

    -Cortium bombs: These are a lazy and clumsy solution to a problem that didn't used to exist, which is module clumping. They are primarily used by trolls, to camp a spot while cloaked, force enemies to it, then gank them while they are channeling E. They cost nothing, yet explode like 750 nanite worth of c4. If module clumping weren't a thing, cortium bombs could be removed from the game. Module clumping is comically unbalanced, and rather than walk it back, an even more unbalanced counter was added to account for it. Bring back the old module restrictions and get rid of cortium bombs.

    -Module integration: To follow up on modules inside of buildings, this system is jenky, feels like a draft, and is kind of dumb. You have to place a building low enough in the ground so that it has a dirt floor. This way, technically that is exterior ground, which allows buildings, including modules, to be placed on it. If you build your building too high, it can't have modules inside. To make this into something cleaner, which actually looks intentional, I would add 2 alcoves into most buildings, which can have any module or a spawn tube implanted into them. Then this building assumes the functions of those structures, in addition to being it's own building it it's own right. Then prevent modules from being placed indoors, other than in these intended alcoves. On the pillbox and bunker, put the on the left and right sides of the interior of the door. On the infantry tower, put them on the upper level. I would not add alcoves to the sunderer garage, as that thing was never intended to house modules...it was intended to house a sunderer.

    -Howler mining lasers: Since I just nixed one thing that kills bases, let's talk about another thing that theoretically kills bases. These lasers are a joke. I like the concept of giving the harvester vehicle some anti base utility, but is is laughably under powered. These big, clumsy, obvious vehicles have to drive up to point blank to use this ability, sit in a very exposed position while using it, and then it isn't even very strong. The AP cannon on the Lightning tank kills structures faster than the Howlers, can do so at a distance, and can shoot things that aren't buildings. I had a PMB fight a month back or so at Berjess, where the enemy rushed 5 or 6 ants across the bridge to chew on my base, they actually made it up and all had their lasers going. They earned the win, but died without killing any buildings. Start by doubling the damage of the Howler, and leave the door open to further buffs. Second benefit, let it see the HP of the building, much like it can see the cortium level in a crystal.

    -The Flail: Of all the things I'm covering, this probably is the tallest peg. It is currently a super weapon, with high yield, high splash, pinpoint accuracy, and is unavailable 90% of the time. The last point being because it can't be fired into no-build zones. To address that, I would substantially shrink most of the no build zones, as they are excessive. But, what to do about it's absurd power where it can be used? The point of this weapon is to zone people off of ground, with the damage being a penalty for failing to move. It's not meant to actually connect as often as it does. With that in mind:
    -Make the artillery incoming icon on the minimap visible to all factions.
    -Make the smoke marker bigger, and red. People see green smoke, and think someone dropped a smoke marker. Also, green doesn't usually indicate danger to most people. There is no red smoke marker, so people would know something is up if they see it, and at least in western culture red indicates danger. People will move out of the danger smoke, when they would have ignored green smoke.
    -Make the flail itself show up on the map the whole time the shells are airborne, to help the opponents find it.
    -Stagger the launch of the shells by anywhere between half a second and a full second. This sometimes happens anyways because of lag, but it looks cool, and gives just a little more notice.
    -Add some randomized scatter to the shells, artillery is not a surgical tool.
    -Make each shot fired cost cortium. This way it costs something to use it.

    -What makes a good construction site?
    Final bit, promise. Some of the intended construction sites are great to build on, others are garbage, and I don't think the devs know the what or the why of a good construction site, so here goes:
    -It needs to have large patches of flat ground with no annoying doo-dads that will "collides with existing object". The new construction sites on Esamir are littered with these, and it makes them unworkable. Comparatively, Lowland Trading Post and Berjess Overlook on Indar are fantastic construction sites, because they give the builder space to work.
    -It needs cover from some directions so that it can't get surrounded by tanks and pummeled. Berjess achieves this by being on top of a plateau surrounded by cliffs. There are a total of 3 directions it can be approached from, other than that, the cliffs protect it. On top of that, some of those approaches should be impossible, unless disasters have happened elsewhere on the continent. Lowland has the giant building in the middle of the desert to build behind, meaning that enemy armour have to push half way across the desert to flank it.
    -It needs presence on the lattice, I've gone over this, but I'll bring it up again. There are fantastic spots from a building perspective, which end with 4 Galaxies flying overhead to the base behind, making the PMB irrelevant.
    -Spral Oasis on Esamir is bad, because it is in the middle of a low angle crater, meaning it can be shot from all sides. The new sunderer towers are good to build behind, but are so far away you don't see when A point flips.
    -Stillwater watch has plenty enough cover, but there's junk everywhere, and where there isn't junk, there are steep slopes, making construction awful.
    -The ruins of what used to be Ymir Southern Reach are actually good to build on, there is a decent amount of cover, and flat, doo-dad free ground to build on. Unfortunately it's only a supply base, there is no reason to take the ground it stands on, other than the fun of the base fight itself (which thankfully, is sometimes enough). However enemies wouldn't be wrong to simply go around it. The Ymir ruins have massive untapped potential for construction play. Get rid of a lot of the small rubble and make it a 4 point base, with one control point in the center of the bio lab, and one point in each of the ruined satellites.

    Alright, that's it. If you're still here, thank you for your perseverance, I know that was a lot, and I tried to condense it. Unfortunately, the topic of "what's wrong with construction, and how do we fix it" can't be covered in 2 or 3 sentences. Please tell me what you think, even if all you think is that I'm an idiot. I would hate to put in the time it took to write all this up, only to see it slide off the front page with no engagement. I'm thinking at some point I might do "Rabid fixes: Amp Stations".
    • Up x 5
  2. Whiteagle

    Well I have to comment on this considering my own pitches for Construction Fixes...

    Interim Lattice Construction Bases might work, but I'd much rather an entire new Continent built from the ground up for this purpose.
    Indar kinda suffered from being packed TOO full of Bases every 50 meters back at Beta/Launch, and that was before the Lattice so you could Capture with Territory Adjacency, and I fear trying to cram Lattice Construction Bases in will result in the same Chaos.

    Meanwhile, a whole NEW map would allow for plenty of space for both Major Facilities to act as large Lattice Chokepoints between the Faction Footholds AND a more intricate Lattice Layout between them and the Warp Gates.

    I'd totally agree to just make the damn Spawn Tube a Default Unlock already, it's just as vital to a PMB as Walls or Turrets, and your going to want to unlock something to cover it anyways.

    All welcome Quality of Life improvements.

    I wouldn't remove the Console since it's really the Bunkers only redeeming quality at this point...
    Since I'm a minimalist Builder who usually sticks to his ANT, I do use the Bunker for it's Infantry Console, but I make sure it's outside of my Bases' Perimeter and PROBABLY in the firing line of my Xiphos Tower.
    It's also why the Pain Spire is important; Pain Fields keep Enemy Infilitrators from hacking all your ****!

    Yeah, like I said before the Pain Spire is actually rather important for covering otherwise hugely exposed Vulnerabilities in a PMB.
    The Walls are intentionally designed to form gaps so Enemy Infantry can walk into any PMB, and even a fully sealed Perimeter Wall wouldn't stop the most diehard of Base Busters, so the Pain Spire is at least a Priority Target before they can hit anything else.

    Honestly I do not see this as a problem!
    Thing is, there are only 5 Modules you can actually fit in there (The Reinforcement Module being useless anyways), and only THREE of those make the Pillbox itself a harder Target (Skywall Shield Emitter, Structure Shield Module, and the Repair Module), leaving you with a choice of either a Turret AI Module or the ALARM MODULE!
    You've said it yourself that Turret AI can only buy Players time to react, so that leaves us with a TINY pillbox and whatever else is within the Repair Radius and under the Skyshield.
    The WORST I could see is a turtled-up Orbital Strike Uplink Base, and that already paints a huge target on itself the moment you put the Uplink down.

    Again, I don't see how Module Clumping is unbalanced, but I will agree that Cortium Bombs are probably in need of a Rework.
    My Outfit use to have a group that specifically went around pulling shenanigans' like Base Busting, and Cortium Bombs were their Go-to when they actually wanted to kill a Base quickly because of how ease they were to acquire On-site.
    Honestly, a Powerful Timebomb like that shouldn't just be pulled from an Infantry Terminal for Merit...
    I'm thinking a Vehicle, perhaps just a Flash Weapon, that Deploys itself to begin its Countdown.

    Thing is, I'd much rather this kind of time and effort be spend on the Buildings of the Static Lattice Bases than the Construction ones.

    I think it CAN see the HP of a Building, or at least how long it will take you to Laser it to death, but hard Agree.
    Damn thing takes forever just to take out a Module, let alone a Rampart Wall.

    Mostly agree except the Cortium cost and MAYBE the Scattering, with the addition of a rather substantial Range increase to about 3 kilometers and the all Faction visible "Incoming Artillery" Icon indicate the DIRECTION the Flail is firing from instead of it's EXACT location.
    The 600 meter max range is rather comical next to the full Kilometer given to both the Glaive (Which could also use the same buffs/changes) and the Orbital Strike Uplink.
    I don't know if changing the Smoke Indicator is really going to help though, it's not a terribly visible plume to begin with and Color Blind Players will probably still mistake it for Squad and other Smoke.
    • Up x 2
  3. RiP0k

    Here's what I consider necessary for the builder: Create a new building-a spawn room that includes a spawn point, power shields on windows and doors, a spire of pain, terminals for infantry, a common one for vehicles (which would be activated if there are sites necessary for this type of transport and when adding a second type of equipment to the list when building a second site), adding lanterns at the corners of the spawn room that work as a dark light flashlight, prohibit the installation of modules in the spawn room. Adding complete invulnerability of walls. Make access to cortium bombs only for engineers, make a constant indicator of the bomb when it is installed (without the need to detect it), make a timer for these bombs necessary for installation and during this timer the characteristic sounds of pressing the keys and preparing this bomb and displaying the enemy on the mini-map when its setting is like a shot. Add a site for a colossus (spending all current resources +20000 cortium) an icon on the general map only for allies if there is a site and 30,000+ cortium (visible at any range and very noticeable). Adding a shield to the turrets from the shield module for structures (like the Sanderer). Removing spiers of pain when adding a spawn room to the game. Adding spiers for healing and restoring infantry shields. Modification of the panel gate by removing the stairs and making the walls symmetrical. Adding a tower replenishing cortium for colossi (up to 20,000 cortium in silo). Adding a large device to repair nearby allied bastions with a beam (spending up to 20,000 cortium in silo). Reduce non-building areas by 25%. Reduce the distance between modules by 25%. Adding the structure of a repair station (works like a repair sanderer). Removing Flail and Glaive. Adding a low anti-personnel turret. Returning the nodes to replenish the cortium in Silo. Adding the resistance of the sky shield to the damage of the bastion cannons. Adding an icon to the main map (visible at any distance and of a larger noticeable size) of the ground + air transport, if there are appropriate sites and there are 30,000+ cortium in Silo. In the terminal of the spawn room, max out only for the cortium. Change the orbital strike by making not 1 ray that throws everything away, but several small rays that randomly appear in a certain radius, which do not knock back vehicles, causing damage and the additional effect of radiation or corrosion damage that takes away health from vehicles and infantry for 30 sec. Make the activation of invulnerability at the shield module automatic when receiving damage to the wall on which this module acts (if the walls are not made invulnerable).
  4. RabidIBM

    Ok, thanks for the engagement folks, I'm happy to see it.

    @Whiteagle:
    -I agree that a continent designed with construction in mind would be better for base builders than a continent which had in shoe horned in after the fact. That said, I'm trying to keep the potential costs of my suggestions down, as I'm aware that this game does not have the financial backing of any of the big shots in gaming. They are supposedly promising another continent currently, but they've promised that before, so I'm not holding my breath. Adding some 1 minute bases to the lattice should be a lot cheaper.
    -I agree with you about the free spawn tube, now that I think about that. We've already seen other stuff given to new players for free, such as maxed nanoweave on HA, so free access to the spawn tube wouldn't be out of line.
    -Regarding the bunker console, I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one. If you are putting it well outside of your base to limit enemy access, you are adding so much run time to get to it that you might as well redeploy to re-kit yourself. Add on that the bunker is one of the buildings available for free, and therefore new, aspiring builders, who think they are helping, keep adding the damn things to my bases, and I just want rid of that console.
    -True, the walls could be better designed to seal to each other, and other structures more easily. I think that would be a better fix than allowing random pain fields, which understandably annoy people who are dying without being shot, and who weren't spawn camping. However, changing building shapes now opens up a whole new level of development cost, which I am trying to keep minimal
    -The ant does see something when chewing on a building, but it's not clear what it is seeing. Maybe the current information is useful, but I have no way of knowing because I have no idea what it is.
    -On the flail, I completely forgot to mention extending the range, I actually did intend to have that in the OP. I like your idea of a direction indicator.

    @RiP0k:
    -I'm not big on the idea of a designated spawn room. I like the idea of having a few structures to choose from. I have planned builds for various sites, and do use each of the sundy garage, pillbox, and infantry tower as a spawn room. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and the lack of a "one size fits all" spawn room helps keep construction varied and interesting. And again with the infantry console, those things need to NOT be there, they're just liabilities.
    -Adding a dark light lantern as a new structure would be cool. I might cost some dev resources, I'm not sure.
    -I'll support getting rid of indoor modules just as soon as buildings have a planned way to integrate them. There's a reason this was the one field where I intentionally opened the wallet on required dev resources, because the current dirt floor system is such an eye sore.
    -Invulnerable buildings used to be a part of construction, and they were removed with good reason. Being able to add invulnerable buildings was too much power for players to have, as it was very exploitable. It is possible to make set ups which cannot be entered without destroying some of the walls.
    -I like your efforts to fix the cortium bomb, but since the thing was only even added to counter an unnecessary problem, I'm against wasting resources on trying to fix it. Again, I'm trying to keep costs down, and reverting to previous content should be about the lowest cost suggestion I can make. Reverting the module system, then scrubbing cortium bombs entirely would definitely solve all cortium bomb related problems, for next to no cost. Whiteagle I appreciate that you think there's nothing wrong with module clumping, but clearly somebody thinks there is, and if this is price of deleting cortium bombs, I'm willing to pay it.
    -Regarding the colossus, I think that's a hard nope on PMBs being able to spawn them. The colossus is an enormous threat, and its limitations on where it can be drawn help balance it, giving opponents a chance to scout it. Surprise colossus would be OP. Yes, you said to make it visible on the map, but 4 certed ants could run the line, drop a disposable colossus draw, draw it, and abandon the base. +1 colossus for every 3 ants who join them, drop a bunch of anvils, and you have an absurdly OP op.
    -Regarding healing spire, colossus recharge and bastion healing: I'm all for more support functions, however each of these would need a lot of balance testing. Recharging the colossus is probably the most balanced of these suggestions, as a player still had to gather the cortium in the first place, and I'm getting a real Protoss shield battery vibe off of it. Healing a bastion would probably be OP no matter how you cut it, but I'd be willing to be wrong about that.
    -Why do you want to remove the flail and glaive? There's a decided lack of indirect fire in this game already, and these add some teeth to the base, as well as the ability to shoot other bases with a battle of the builders.
    -A low anti-personnel turret would be OP. These things hit hard, and their only real vulnerability is the fact that tanks can take them out. If they could be short, they could be hidden from tanks.
    -Big yes on sky shields lasting longer against mauler cannons. Bases die far too quickly to maulers.
    -Big yes on communicating available resources to team mates via the map. Let everyone know that there are air and land units availble
    -Regarding your cortium MAX idea, I can see how this would conflict with my "get rid of the consoles" idea. So, maybe this could be handled is with a new module. Instead of any one building having an infantry console, have an infantry equipment module. This would be a module which has an infantry terminal on it. If you wanted to add this to whatever building through my system of module alcoves, that would be the builder's discretion.
    -Changing the animation of the orbital strike would cost a lot of development resources, and having several beams at once would be very hard on the servers. I'll admit that orbital bombardments in Dawn of War look a lot better than Planetside, but I don't see it being realistic.
    -Automatic shield module response could be OP, but I would like it if more people had access to that console. Also, more consoles could have activated functions.

    Final note to you RiP0k, it would really help if you could somehow break your text up in future. When people refer to a "wall of text", your post is a perfect example. I know I'm typing a lot, but I'm trying to break it up so people don't get lost in it.

    Big thanks again for the engagement on my thread here, I'm really hoping it gets noticed. And if it has, then I'll put out this request: If anything I've suggested would cost a lot more development resources than I seem to think it would, please do let me know. We're on a budget, I get it.
    • Up x 1
  5. Whiteagle

    I don't know about COMPLETE invulnerability, but I'll get to that later.
    Problem here is it steps on the Medics abilities...
    While I'd love to make the walls Symmetrical to satisfy MUH AUTISM, the Stairs are probably there so you can't create a PERFECTLY sealed wall.
    Fracking YES!
    I'd love to set up a Colossi Fuel Pump to further help my Faction, as trying to fuel one as an ANT can be super hectic and you can only give it 10,000 Cortium at a time.
    This would be cool, but I share RabidIBM's concern that it'd be SUPER over powered...
    ...Plus I'm not really sure if the Devs can even make the Bastion nodes repairable in the first place.
    One of the big things I would hope to happen if we ever had a better "Construction Integration" overhaul would be outright custom tailoring of No-Build Zones.
    Right now they're mostly big circles because that's an easy band-aid fix; Figure out the center of a Base and have a Radius from that point.
    Of course a lot of my ideas for better integrating Construction into the Static Bases would put a lot of fine tuning work on the Devs to custom fit Module Benefits in place, hence why I understand such a huge overhaul would be put on the backburner.
    Is this still a thing?
    Like RabidIBM said, we can currently fit four Modules in a single Pillbox...
    I somewhat assumed this is what the Repair Module already did...
    At the very least I'd give it a Synergy with the Construction Ammo Tower so that it gave THAT the ability, with the thinking that it would later give Static Base Vehicle Ammo Dispensers the same after the proper Integration Overhaul.
    It'd be one of the easier integrations too, as such a Repair Aura benefit already existed for locking a Continent, and it was a really cool Benefit in the original game.
    I personally see no problem with this; Yes a MANNED Xiphos can scythe through Infantry, but the AI version can barely kill one person, to the point I think it's at the same level as the Spitfire.
    Honestly I'd combine this with the Colossi Fuel Pump, as well as it's use to expand the Total Amount of Cortium a single Base has access to by giving the Node it's own small Cortium Reservoir the Main Silo constantly draws from.
    Yes, while it's been a while, the last time I tried to use a Construction Base against a Bastion, the Bastion completely wiped it before I could even put down an Orbital Strike Uplink.
    Double YES!
    I'm pretty much always building my Bases to supply Vehicles to my Faction, but they are rarely used because there's almost no way to advertise them!
    Well since I'm still for keeping the Infantry Terminal in the Bunker, I'd make this a function of it, as well as using Cortium for other Nanite Consumables.
    In fact one of the biggest parts of my Construction Integration Overhaul was that every Lattice Bases' Silo would "burn" it's Cortium Supply to "fuel" a larger Nanite Generation Tick for that Faction.
    I'd much prefer this, as I've never actually used the manual Invulnerability toggle of the Shield Module; If my Base is being hit I'm too busy trying to fight off those Attackers!
    To further emphasis the "Construction Synergy" I alluded to with the Repair Module and Construction Ammo Tower, I'd also make this a Synergy of the Shield and Alarm Modules to give the latter a bit more utility.
    My thinking is that if the Alarm Module can alert you when your Base is being actively Damaged, it can also flip the Invulnerability switch on the Shield Module for you, which would certainly give me a reason to plop one down.

    That's just it though, since it would affect the Continental Lattice Layout and Macroscale Battleflow, it might just be more efficient to build a new Continent from the ground up than to adapt an existing one.
    Take Desolation for as my primary example; Desolation was relatively quick to make not only because it was smaller, but also that it was mostly just terrain editing with a few copy and pasted Structure Assets to create the Capture Points.

    An entirely new Lattice Link can greatly alter how combat flows across the map, thus figuring out where you can insert new Links takes a lot of consideration, then on top of that you need to find enough room for a PMB to be built!
    Meanwhile, my ideal Construction Continent would mostly require Developer attention at the Four Major Chokepoints (the Continental Center and the median between each faction), the rest of it would mostly be open field because we THE PLAYERS are the ones building it up, and it would allow each Faction to use that area to create a sprawling MEGA Player Made Base that would basically function as an "Urban" Infantry Combat Environment, something the Player Base has wanted since the Original Planetside...

    And here's probably the best part; What happens if you DON'T have enough Construction Players to build your Faction's Mega Base?
    That Empty Space become prime Vehicle Combat real estate!

    Indeed, it and the Router are pretty much the only things that the rest of the Playerbase cares about right now, since Vehicle Terminals aren't easily advertised.

    Yeah, I can understand why you want them gone; They're an open Invitation for an Infiltrator to come and wreak your stuff...
    ...But that's technically the same draw back as the Vehicle Terminals, which they could hack and pull their OWN Sunderer from, further emphasizing why Pain Spires are useful for more than just Spawn Protection (Damage DOES interrupt Hacking, doesn't it?).
    I think a better option would be an overhaul of the Bunker's model if not outright replacing it with the Pillbox, as we can probably all agree that as a Structure it's quite useless; It has a huge Footprint that makes it hard to fit in place, and it's not really a great defensive position for Infantry to fire from on top of that.

    While I support RiP0k suggestion to add "Snap to Edge" functionality several to Construction Structures, the Devs had made it clear they don't want us to be able to COMPLETELY seal our Base's Walls from foot-bound Infantry.
    This is why the Pain Field is such an important component; It doesn't stop Enemy Infantry from entering a PMB, but it does STRONGLY DISCOURAGE it!
    And while I'm certain the Devs appreciate your low-cost approach, your ideas have several conflicts of that interest...

    Namely that not only would Module Structure Integration be rather Development Resource Intensive (They'd not only need to redo the Geometric Models of the Structures ANYWAYS, they'd need to code a means for the Modules to recognize a proper placement, which would need at least as much effort as Snap-to-Edge Functionality. My own Static Base Construction Module Integration idea pretty much cheats in this regard; A "Phantom" Model of the generic Module is always there, interacting with the space just allows you to spend your "Module Credit" to make it visible with the proper graphics and apply its effect to that Base.), it'd also limit how you'd be able to lay your Player Made Base out, as particular Objects would require specific placements to gain beneficial Module buffs.

    Indeed...

    Yeah, I know it'd be unfair if there wasn't any counter-play to Artillery Bombardment, but outright indicating WHERE the Flail is does take some of the fun out of actively hunting them down.

    It's one of the most common improvements for Construction, and I don't think it'd be all that hard to do...
    I'm pretty sure "Darklight" functionality was baked into the Lighting Engine, hence how it was so easily ported into Flashlights in the first place, so it'd just be a matter of again putting that into the Structures Lightsources.

    Again this is partially why gaps were engineered into the Wall Models to begin with; If you can't take down a Wall then how do you get in?

    I don't know about giving more ACTIVE functions, but I think there is something to be said for Construction Synergy.
    • Up x 1
  6. Whiteagle

    MULTIPOST because I actually hit the Character Limit!

    Are we sure it's the Modules being clumped together that was the actual issue, or is it just a legacy of the poorly executed Construction Launch?
    The only way I could see Module Clumping being UNFAIR is in combination with a sheltered Pain Spire, and that Combination is only really possible with the Sunderer Garage because the Pain Spire was intentionally made too tall to fit into anything else.
    If that's the case then there is a MUCH easier Fix; Make the Pain Spire TALLER so it won't be able to fit into a Sunderer Garage!

    Yeah, the Colossus Fuel Pump is the best candidate for implementation thanks to how little of impact it'd have on the rest of the Game while still creating a great amount of Construction Synergy, especially if it's combined with the Silo Expansion Node to create one "Cortium Refueling Pump" Structure that has utility outside of Colossi Support.
    Infantry Healing Aura's wouldn't be too bad except for the fact they conflate with the Medic's Abilities.
    The original Planetside had a Medical Terminal that would heal you while standing in it, which would make a unique interactable, but then we might be resurrecting the "Resupply Heal Exploit."

    Plus it's not like we want them made into uncounterable Super Weapons like the Flail's original games' Namesake, hence letting everyone see the Incoming Fire Icon AND it giving the Direction of the offending Artillery Piece.

    Again, a MANNED Xiphos might be Overpowered, but that requires someone Manning it, and sheltering it behind walls reduces it's overall Field of Fire and thus effectiveness.

    Ok, other than how Development Resource Intensive Module Structure Integration is, this is just turning the Infantry Terminal into a Constructible!
    WITH Structure Integration, it punishes Base Builders for having it, because that's one less Slot on that Structure for another Module.

    Well like I've repeatedly said now, Integrating Modules is going to be a hugely Developer Resource Intensive endeavor.
    While my concept to Integrate Construction with the Static Lattice Bases would require more over all work, it could be implemented incrementally, where as Overhauling ALL Construction Structures to give them Module Integration would have to be done all at once AND probably require Refitting the Construction System to use my aforementioned "Cheat" anyways.

    It also helps that what I call "Static Lattice Bases" ARE STATIC, any Construction Module Integration is just adding those Effects to the Base's Buildings by hand, but it won't actually do much to change how their Battleflow already goes.
    Again this is why I feel an entirely new Construction Continent would be easier for the Devs than trying to squeeze new Construction based Links into the existing Continental Lattices; A new, mostly empty Map would be easier than trying to refit the existing ones.
    • Up x 1
  7. Demigan

    I don't think these changes tackle the problem enough.

    The builders are encouraged to build an impenetrable murder-hole rather than a fun experience for it's attackers. PMB's are also limited in their potential. Roadblocks, vehicle spawn, fire base. That's about it.

    One way to tackle this is to offer more direct siege equipment for the attackers. Equipment used to enter the base, break open or disable pieces, offer protection to the attackers. That way even a murder-hole is assailable and the builders need to control the area around the base more rather than inside the base.

    The base itself also needs to be easily accessible with the goal of making players defend it actively. The spawntube needs to be as fast as a Sunderer spawn as the current one does not encourage players to spawn there.
    It also needs to be more visible. A PMB should be visible on the map for the owning faction and a players should easily be able to identify what key features are present. The lack of quick spawning and not knowing if this is a full fledged base or a silo with a spawntube is what deters people from choosing to spawn there.

    Adding more 1 minute capture points designed for construction will not solve the problem. Currently such bases are often neglected since as builder you need to determine that enemies will break through waaay in advance of them reaching the base. Having to build something that may or may not be needed is rarely done. Similarly making multiple PMB's in a single lattice link is essentially a mute point.
    A way to resolve this is making such bases worthwhile even when they are never attacked by providing services and support power to a larger region. Additionally such bases could gain a lot of damage resistance (not immunity) if no lattice-link to the area is available and no OS is build there to ensure such bases persist until both attackers and defenders arrive.
    • Up x 3
  8. Whiteagle

    Again, a lot of Constructions Elements were designed with penetrability in mind.
    As I pointed out on RiP0k's Reddit post about adding Snap-to-Edge Functionality to Construction, even such a quality-of-life improvement to build "seamless" Bases can be made to allow Infantry gaps to walk through.

    Uh, isn't that EVERY OTHER VEHICLE in the game?
    I mean, more content would be appreciated, but a direct counter to PMBs is the thinking that gave us the Cortium Bomb, and it's very apparent that particular item isn't very fun to actually play against.

    Yeah, we've been asking for these kinds of quality-of-life improvements, but it'd require reworking the Map UI and that's a quagmire waiting to happen...

    I also kind of agree with this; On the existing Continents it's not really worth it to build at the first Generation of Construction Bases as their singular Points flip too easily, and the corridor nature of their Lattice Links means your Faction either controls both adjoining Bases or you can't ever hope to actual build there.
    It's another reason why I'm against RabidIBM's idea of cramming more of those type of Links into the existing Lattices.
    That said, I am somewhat hopeful for the newer Construction Bases on Esamir, as those have multiple Points and/or are in a consecutive chain of such Bases, as well as plenty of Static Elements to either shelter Sunderers or build a PMB around.

    What are you talking about here?
    If you're talking about North Eastern Esamir, I think it's more of an issue of lopsided Capture Point Distribution (Vidar Observation is still a single Point on the one end of the Chain) and the Construction unfriendly Terrain of the Shattered Warpgate.
    It was rather nightmarish in Chapters 1 and 2 to build over there without getting dogpiled as well, so we builders are understandably gun-shy when it comes to entrenching over there.

    Yeah one of my earlier pitches was for an Outfit Resource Extraction Module that would allow a Builder to gain that Territory's particular Tick of Resources that would encourage Enemies to "Pop" said Module to also gain a Resource Tick.
    Thus we'd see a lot of "Sapping" Bases being built on rarer Resource Territories, and since THOSE Territories are usually the hotly contested ones...

    This is basically my thinking with RiP0k's "Automatic Shield Invulnerability when Attacked" idea; If the Alarm Module toggles the Shield Module when it detects Damage, it would give the Builder enough time to rally a Defense while the Attackers wait for the Overcharge to go onto Cooldown and/or surgically Destroy any Construction Element preventing them from moving in on foot to disable the Base, since the Overcharge Shield supposedly only affects Structures the Shield Module applies Shields to.
    • Up x 2
  9. Demigan

    Not the kind of penetrability that I had in mind. Especially when you consider the fight that is supposed to be had there.


    No not really. Vehicles "simply" destroy a wall and then all the contents of the base behind it. That's not a siege and due to how PMB's operate with little to no control over the surrounding base it's a poor way to let players finish a PMB. A proper PMB should require the combination of at least infantry and vehicles, with aircraft as a potential bonus.
    On the other hand the PMB's should also focus on controlling the surrounding area, rather than be primed solely for defending it's insides. By introducing siege equipment that players and vehicles can bring to the PMB you can make a siege more dynamic than "rip the walls down and destroy it's insides" or the infantry method of "die and die again until you zerg them" (assuming a well-defended PMB).

    I would be A-OK with making walls invulnerable again if a fight around a PMB started with vehicles paving the way, then a combined push of infantry and vehicles to defeat the base.
    At the same time a PMB should encourage players to always have some form of fortifications outside of it's walls and a vehicle presence to offer the attackers resistance.

    A PMB that has lost the area outside of it's walls should then be in the last stages of it's life. ANT's could have siege equipment blueprints to deploy near PMB's. Such equipment could ofcourse also be used by the defenders to get out of the PMB if they set their base up the right way. Imagine something as simple as a gravlift that can launch you over the wall.

    It wouldn't really require reworking the map UI to a large extent as far as I can see. The HIVE's, spawntubes and OS got their position marked on the map just fine. You could easily let Silo's be visible on the map with an icon next to it showing basic information like "tank symbol=vehicle pad" or "turret symbol+X where X is the number of turrets in the base". You can also use the current hotspot system to visualize the approximate size of the PMB. Rather than checking for the amount of weapons fire in one area and then visualizing that with the hotspot bubbles appearing on the approximate location you could let it check for the amount of buildings present and show the approximate placement of these buildings. This is no different and can easily be used even across the continent just like the current hotspot system.
    With the updated UI now allowing players to right click and open a menu for players it should be possible to use it for objects as well. Either to give commands or restrictions (as owner of the Silo for example) or to show more information on the base you select.

    Perhaps as a way to still allow his idea to happen: Place these 1-minute bases stragetically and allow players to teleport infantry and vehicles between such bases. It would provide a tactical advantage for players to use this and would mean that players are willing to build there even if the base isn't going to be attacked any time soon. Similarly such bases could provide regional bonusses, such as being able to view the exact number of enemy players present in a base or providing 1 extra magazine for all players spawning there or other such indirect advantages.


    I meant that if you have two 1-minute capture points in one lattice link, only one would reasonably be build at. You would be better served reinforcing that base rather than building at both area's at once. So it would limit the amount of 1-minute bases you could reasonably provide for one continent.
    Although perhaps a way around this is to give players a maximum buildings limit per region. That way a dedicated builder could potentially build several bases rather than have to choose one area to build it and babysit that base until it's destroyed or no longer useful. Limits would apply ofcourse to prevent players from lagging the server too much.

    I profoundly hate all outfit-only suggestions. Teamplay should be possible with anyone, at any time and anywhere. If it were for example a faction-wide resource extraction module that boosted resource gain or gave a new type of resource (I know another one) that could be used to buy 1-time equipment, vehicles or upgrades I would at least be able to agree with it.

    A simple alarm module is probably not enough. Players should organically spawn there and defend it, rather than go towards an alarm at a base that the builder mostly feels connected to and few other people.
    There is little need to give players incentive to show up at a large facility. The spawn system works fine so the time it takes to complete a capture gives time for both parties to set up and start their offensive/defensive operations. Bases like Quartz Ridge versus Indar Excavation also allow enough time, safety and tasks to complete to build up a vehicle force and truly fight each other.
    PMB's should be just as organic. When base 1 falls, the defenders should start the defense of the PMB base as if it were any other base. They would spawn there, reinforce the base where they can, spawn vehicles or just use infantry to take to the field and prevent access to the attackers. At no point should there be the need to actively organize and galvanize people to participate as there is too little chance such a method creates a solid fight.
    • Up x 2
  10. Whiteagle

    Well this is sort of why we want to Buff the Howling Lasers' Anti-Construction properties...

    ...If possible, perhaps by-passing the Invulnerability Overshielding, making it the best Vehicle Weapon for breaching Walls, but also synergizing with Tanks who would Attack the Turrets to destroy them/drawing their fire.
    The Howling ANT then makes it to the Pain Spire, which SHOULD NOT be sheltered, taking it out at allowing Infantry to proceed un-harassed.

    Well that's what all those Turrets and Artillery Pieces would be doing, but the Flail has such a compairitively short range you can't get one built in enough time for it to have an Effect on a Battle.
    600m puts you right in Tanking Range, and they will prioritize the big exposed Gun as soon as they spot it.

    Or a Jump Pad...
    I figure the "Mancannon" would be most balanced by being a Structure that can't be adjusted after being put down.

    Well if that's the case, I'd make it based on the Elysium Spawn Tube; Pretty much everyone wants them to at least carry your Name like a Deployed Sunderer, if not outright be able to label them.
    Then, like Static Lattice Bases in the Spawn Menu, it'd have symbols indicating what Terminals have been built at that particular Silo.
    BIGGEST issue then is a better interface for the Silo and Vehicle Pad Lock Controls; Currently there isn't any way to even know if your own stuff is LOCKED or not!
    Ideally as part of the Construction Interface Overhaul, it would also allow us more control over the permissions, such as setting our Cortium Lockout Levels and such.

    If they could teleport Infantry and Vehicles that reliably, why the hell do we not have WORKING WARPGATES?!
    Because that's basically what the Warpgates did in the Original Game; They Teleported you from one Continental Map to another...
    Problem is Higby promised us the Moon with the idea Planetside 2 would do that SEAMLESSLY, which as the Biolab Teleporters have shown us isn't an attenable reality.
    Still, even if PMBs only allowed Infantry to resupply Consumables and equipped MAX suits for Cortium instead of Nanites like Vehicles like we've been talking here, that would still make them extremely useful for all Players...
    ...As long as they know it's an option.

    Well my thinking with the "Mostly Empty" Construction Continent is that it'd have at least five, if not TEN Vehicle Capture Points between each Warpgate and the Chokepoint Facilities, that way even in the absence of Builders the area would make a good Vehicle Battlefield.
    After what would probably be an initial Blitzkrieg Landgrab with Aircraft, the area could either be Fortified into a massive PMB that would transform it into more of an Urban Combat Zone, or again be open Field for Tanks to shoot it out.

    Yeah, I know it's not great, but I wanted to go with what was already on the Map so as to not over complicate things...
    Plus this would make Outfit Assets MORE accessible to Solo and Small Outfits; You might not be able to put your Outfit name on the Crown, but you can at least get some of that sweet Purple Stuff by building a Base there!
    Now yes, Larger Outfits will be more able to exploit this system, but they're also the ones hitting their Outfit Resource Caps sooner and have to use up all they're producing just to keep ahead of the influx.

    Well again, the idea is to Synergize the Alarm Module with the Shield Module's Invulnerable Overshield, as I've found it impossible to even use that ability when my Builds are under siege, and that's really just to buy a bit of time for a Defense to muster.
    As we Base Builders have been saying, the bigger issue with PMBs is there isn't a good way to advertise/promote the services your PMB might be providing.
    I mean the best I've gotten is repeatedly advertising in Leader Voice Chat, and that has understandably not been very successful...
    • Up x 2
  11. RabidIBM

    Ok, wow, you guys left me a lot, thank you. Here goes:
    @Whiteagle
    -I'm aware that my suggestion to integrate modules into buildings would be resource intensive to develop. It's the point I really put all the marbles on, I tired to keep everything else as minimalist as possible to justify one expensive thing.
    -Regarding a healing building stepping on medic toes, at this point there's a lot of content that steps on other content's toes. Ammo printer steps on engineer and ammo bus toes, most of the outfit armouries step on construction's toes, I could go on. Multiple paths to achieve the same goal is just a feature of the game now.
    -Regarding the distance between modules, I think he means of the exact same type. You can sometimes get blind spots in the coverage of passive repair for example. It's not the biggest deal to be honest IMO.
    -The vehicle repair tower is an interesting concept, sure, throw it in the basket.
    -Regarding the short anti-personnel tower. Here's the issue, what would counter it? Everything in this game should counter something, and be countered by something. The tall towers are countered by tanks. The short AV turret is ok because it is only hiding from the thing it is meant to shoot, so it's a two way limitation. If either of the other towers were short they would counter something without being countered, therefore OP.
    -Regarding lattice clutter from adding more bases, I think I'll do a separate reply to that with screen shots, pictures will make it easier.
    -Regarding gaps balancing invulnerable buildings, again, we've already tried it. There is terrain you can push the walls into in some places to hide their edges. Most PMBs weren't built abusively, but enough were to make a problem. Objects created by one team's players have to be removable by the other team's players.
    -Regarding the use of PMBs to creating outfit resource, this could be interesting. You could bring back the old HIVEs, but instead of creating continent locking points, they create outfit resource according to the territory they are in. Instead of 7 total on the map, you can have 1 in each territory. This way, if somebody else is building purple at mid map, and I want to, I have to kill their HIVE before mine will activate. This would need to be balanced, probably by distance from warpgate. Anyways, cool concept!

    @Demigan
    -Yes, builders are encouraged to make their fortifications as favorable to their own faction as possible, that's the point of construction, always will be. You will never be able to ask players to build "fair" bases because players are inherently playing to win. It would be like asking high skill IVI players to stand in door ways for an extra half second to make sure things are fair, or asking medics to only revive half their teammates to keep things fair. It's never going to happen. Players will play every advantage to its fullest because they want to win. It's on the dev end to make sure nothing is OP, which is the conversation I'm trying to make here. How to make it relevant, fun, and fair.
    -Every vehicle is siege equipment. That said, it would be cool if buildings were destroyed incrementally. It would consume resources to develop this, but if towers could have walls damaged, or ramparts could have breaches, that would add some depth and complexity to breaking a fort down. Again, resources.
    -I fully agree with you on the faster spawn at the spawn tube, and the info on the map for allies. As for an accessible layout, that's on the builder.
    -Regarding anticipating the flow of battle, yes, this is one of the requirements to be a builder. This is the main reason why when people who are considering getting into construction ask me about it, I emphasize that they should have at least a little PL experience under their belt, so they can anticipate the war front, and have an idea of what would be potentially valuable to PLs. Misreading the war front is one of the most common fun killers for builders, but that is just one of the challenges of this play style. The highs are fewer and farther between, but much higher. Winning a battle for a base you built yourself feels like more than twice the win at any other base.
    -Regarding the statement about alarm modules. These are a necessary function. If the whole war front is moving towards a base, then yes, players will spawn there on their own, I've had it happen many times. However, this does nothing to address the 1 or 2 damned infils with cortium bombs. I need the alarm module to know they are there, trying to kill the potential of a good fight before it happens. Builders should always be in a platoon, should have a microphone, and the alarm module signals the builder to drop what he's doing and investigate. Based on what the builder finds, he then tells the PL what is needed to save the base.

    Ok, I think I answered all the points that really needed it, that was a lot so if I missed something please just say so.

    Demigan, buddy, I'm not meaning to chase you off my thread, I really appreciate your contribution, but I can tell that you have some experience gaps just by what you're saying. I don't mean that as an attack, I rather mean it as an invitation. If you have a free Tuesday night, please make a TR Connery account, and come check out Tipsy Tanker Tuesday. Warpgate permitting, we've integrated construction play into mass scale armoured play, and it produces something I don't think you've ever seen. Best case scenario is we're on Indar with Lowland Trading Post between ourselves and the NC. This allows us to have the battle of Kursk in the Lowland desert. We plant down a gargantuan PMB in the middle of the desert to be a center piece for armoured ops. Does that sound insane? Well, it is! Insanely fun! I'm not there every Tuesday, but if you tell them Rabid invited you they will keep a spot for you. Don't worry about unlocks, you will have so many team mates with you that you can run bone stock, or just man somebody's secondary.
    • Up x 2
  12. RabidIBM

    Ok, I said I'd get about about map changes, so here it is. I'm not saying add all 8 of these, these are just concepts of how more 1 minute bases could be added. Some of them are a bit more disruptive, but some would change basically nothing if not built on.
    [IMG]
    Ok, my meaning should be obvious, but where I added green lines are added lattice, green circles are new base options, red X means take the lattice out, black X means the same, but wouldn't have shown up against a red background, and if I dropped one exactly on an existing lattice I didn't bother to X out the current lattice. Anyways:
    -1 I've seen the western faction take Indar Excavation Site, and then carry on with armoured battles into the desert beyond there. More than once they have thrown up a PMB in this approximate location, and made a good fight of it. In a previous version of Indar, there was no Lowland Trading Post, instead there was a link between Indar Excavation Site and Quartz Ridge Camp. There also were often battles in the desert, centered around the building in the middle of the desert. The dev team made the very smart move to officially recognize these existing fights, and give them a control point to fight over. The #1 base site would basically be a repeat of this recognition of existing fights a little further north. If nothing were built here, it would not significantly impede attackers approaching Indar Excavation Site from the north.
    -2 There used to be a base here called Abandoned NS Offices. It was nobody's favorite, but it's removal left a weird blank space. Also, Sunken Relay Station is not in a great spot. Owning it does not significantly impede progress towards Howling Pass Check Point. Adding this base, with this lattice would make controlling the desert around Howling Pass more important. Another way which could be interesting would be to have 1 base, with multiple capture points out in the desert, which links to each of the 2 nearby Mao satellites, and Howling Pass. Say, 3 points scattered across the desert, all capturable by vehicles, all bulidable. This would create more of an opportunity to have armoured warfare out in the desert, with neither side having to care as much about potential back caps.
    -3 This location in the valley used to be a base. It was basically the gateway to the valley. This is currently an interesting place to build, but suffers the fatal flaw of watching enemy galaxies fly by without actually fighting the base. Without any construction, this base would incidentally change hands as sunderers drive by. It's also weird that there is this random garage in the middle of nowhere, with a heavy armour pad which is seemingly randomly assigned to a faction, usually one not in the area, and usually destroyed. Adding a control lattice here would give purpose to this garage, as well as an ability to determine which faction the console should align to.
    -4 This is another location I've seen builders build, and it's an interesting concept. It controls the road between The Palisade and Crimson Bluff Tower.
    -5 Again, this used to be a base, it's now a garage in the middle of nowhere, it looks like an interesting location to throw some structures up, but would currently achieve nothing.
    -6 This is a common site for router bases, and for random newer builders to randomly fling buildings all over the place. Part of why I would want a base here is that The Stronghold is a neat looking base, which hasn't seen any love in a long time. It honestly deserves better than to be a throw away push lane. Adding a lattice through the valley to it's north would give the Stronghold a bit more purpose. Additionally, running south east of Zurvan, it's wierd that there is no lattice, despite roads being present. A base here, with lattices done this way would give builders a chance to build on something better than a throw away push lane. Instead they would get to control a lattice intersection. The increased lattice routes would also increase the options for maneuver warfare.
    -7 Another garage, and one I see builders at semi-routinely. Regent Rock Garrison also needs better lattice. Currently, if the eastern faction take it, they have nowhere really to go other than to hug the southern board edge. The could push north to Crossroads, but they don't need Regent Rock to do that. Adding these new lanes would open up options. Instead of Regent, this lane could also start at the eastern satellite of Peris Amp Station. This is probably also a good time to mention the black X over the link between Berjess Overlook and Xeno Tech Labs. That link is bad because it makes capturing Regent Rock Garrison a hollow victory for the eastern faction. Unless the also pick up Crossroads Watchtower, Regent can be easily cut off. It's a solid base, the lattice should reflect that. Yes, each of Xeno Tech and Berjess would be diminished by this, but that is better than what the current lattice does to Regent Rock.
    -8 Another former base, and another weird garage. I have built here a few times, and it is fun to guard the top of the valley. Fun, that is, until 4 galaxies drop on Scarred Mesa Skydock. It is a brutal choke point, but it can be flanked. A switched on PL needs to remember the road coming out of the south end of the eastern warpgate.

    I do recognize that I've added the most action to the southern end of the continent, and that this would further increase the already strong win rate of the north warpgate, so I will once again state that I'm not asking for all 8, or implying that these are the only good options. Only demonstrating that some 1 minute bases could be added, both in ways which open up options, or in ways which change basically nothing unless built on. If I could only have 2 of these, I would take #s 3 and 8. I can vouch for them as fun places to build, other than the fatal flaw which I'm trying to fix.
  13. Demigan

    No they do not need to make the fortifications favorable, they need to make the PMB itself favorable.
    In a current base you are encouraged to make the walls as well sealed as possible with not entrances for enemies. Imagine if we add a 2-roomed building that would generate something useful for the base or region, only you are required to place it between 2 walls with one entrance facing the outside and one the inside to power it.
    It's a blunt example but it gets the point across I hope: it encourages players to create holes in the defenses, holes that serve as battlegrounds for infantry to enter the base. In return the base will be able to generate something like a regional discount or making it count as an extra capture point as an incentive to actually build one.

    Such buildings could also be purposefully unwieldingly large to make building a fully enclosed base tough, and create more blindspots where enemies can converge to fight from (and you to fight back).
    With walls still being destructable you can even make such buildings favorable by making them impervious to outside attack. That way players want to build them on the edges as protection for the modules inside the perimiter.

    It's a siege, it should have different phases. How would your idea help? If it's incremental but the tanks can just keep firing and destroy it then all you've done is increase the time it takes before they do the exact same.
    I could see it have an effect if the breached stage takes a long time to whittle down to "destroyed" from the outside, but with help from infantry could be cleared much more easily.


    I don't mean a accessible layout, I mean accessible by defenders to show up and defend it as naturally as you would an ordinary base.
    Currently players just aren't encouraged to come to a PMB's defense. There's no natural spawning there due to the spawntube spawntimes being longer and a distinct lack of knowledge on the base's condition. Even as a player selects a PMB to spawn at (s)he should be able to figure out the state of the base and where they might be useful should they spawn there. There also should be a solid reason. With an ordinary base it's to defend it from being taken with reasonably clear steps to succeed. A PMB is much more vague as you might need to fight vehicles that just punch through the outer shell and then murder everything inside or you might face hordes of infantry just sticking small-arms into random modules they found in the hopes of destroying something crucial. It needs more structure (heh) to it so both attackers and defenders know what to do and how to do it.

    And here we again walk into your experience. You assume that just because it is like this that it has to stay that way. But it's a bad gameplay design, it's too high a time investment to have a PMB become useless just because the fight moved on.

    PMB's should be useful even if the fight moves on. That way players can be rewarded without risking their work being useless, which turns players away from construction rather than make it a good gameplay feature. Even of you say it's a challenge, it's not a challenge that should be in the game.

    You seem to have completely missed my point. PMB's should not be easily destroyable at all when there is no fight anticipated there. That way you don't need an alarm module to warn against cortium-bomb infiltrators since they wouldn't be effective until the fight reaches your base.

    Although I could say "we didn't have alarm modules in the passed and it's just a challenge to defend your base against cortium-infils". It just wouldn't be a challenge that is good for the game.

    The point of PMB's was to have large-scale battles around them with both factions working hard on their end. This goal hasn't really been reached, even if we assumed that 50% of the PMB's died to a large-scale battle from both sides the concept has already failed, and we are much closer to 1% of bases having a fight like that. And oh yes I do am involved in PMB's occasionally on both sides of the fence.

    Your problem is that you see only a small part, rather than the full picture. You assume that just because some things are the way they are they should stay that way. PMB's could be so much more than you propose, but you can barely reach beyond the box that the current experience has given you. I don't mean that as an attack. Try to let go of everything you have learned in PS2's construction. Think of the goal that a PMB is supposed to accomplish (a natural attack and defense like a normal base but variable layouts and rewarding to build even if the fight doesn't reach them), then try and design your own construction system that accomplishes that. The current construction just doesn't fit the bill and your idea's so far mostly build on this flawed construction, rather than looking for actual design solutions.

    Basically you are looking at a disease and changing it's symptoms, rather than curing it.
  14. RabidIBM

    Yes, I'm shamelessly boosting my own post. I saw some discussion about the construction game, including a necro from 2017, so I figures hell with it. I put a lot of time into writing this the first time, and tried very hard to keep all but one of the suggested changes to be as minimal on dev resources as possible.
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  15. RabidIBM

    I also would like to apologize for my horrible comma use. I will try to be better about that in the future.
  16. LordAnnihilator

    I'm down with this thread. Lots of great discussion, minimal mud-slinging, and some genuinely DOABLE ideas as to how to fix construction. Threads like this should be offered up to the devs with a note saying "hey, if you don't have any ideas on what to do with construction, here's some!". I love it.

    I can't offer much opinion on bases, as I only ever build them when I need to complete a "Cortium Deposit" mission, and usually just end up destroying and rebuilding the silo a few times to stuff more cortium in it. Mindless, but oddly satisfying to me. Anyway, I doubt I'll put much certs into the system unless some major changes happen. Most of my experience with PMBs involves:
    • Getting blasted by an Orbital from a PMB. I don't have too many issues with these kinds of orbitals, given the effort its creator had to make to get it running.
    • Accidentally finding an ESF/Valkyrie mains base at the edge of the map, with a tube and a light vehicle terminal.
    • The occasional very helpful base (TM) with vehicle resupply and such, placed near a central fight. Usually a pleasant location to hang around, very useful for a sniping MBT, and both I've run across have been on Hossin, of all places.
    • CTIA bases made to provide custom air support for Bastion Ops.
    • Running into an enemy base during a push down a lane. Usually good for a fight, as Cortium Bombers become much less effective when there's an active population willing to operate within that base, so they tend to last a bit. They are, however, destined to lose against a hostile force with armour, since PMBs can't compete with Tanks without their own armour column.
  17. Mechwolf

    You know what doesn't need a construction fix? PS4.
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