[Vehicle] Lightning Secondary Weapons

I think that the MBT's and Lightnings should get access to co-ax weapons and/or top-mounted weapons under the control of the driver. So a Prowler could have 2 top guns, one small one under the control of the driver and one for the gunner.

There is a lot to say for giving Lightnings more weapons similar to ESF's. But what others have already tried to say is that an ESF has a machine gun for a main weapon while a Lightning has a powerful canon. A more realistic approach would be giving Lightnings access to Hornets, Rocketpods and Coyote's as main canon and all 3 ESF machineguns as secondary weapons.

Back to co-ax or a driver controlled top weapon. I think there's a lot to say for adding an AI/AA machine gun on top of vehicles (no flak). It allows tanks to be more in-your-face against infantry rather than having to lob shells from a distance being their best (and most annoying) attack option. It also allows them to have some defense power against aircraft other than hoping they get in your elevation or that there just happens to be a rock nearby to lean against, which works in one direction alone.
I would like the entire tank game to become more lethal anyway, from both ends. Co-ax/top guns would add a lot more lethality to MBT's/Lightnings, infantry could be upgraded with utilities both lethal and non-lethal to sabotage tanks.

As for the type of co-ax/top guns that can be added. Kobalt or similar HMG would be good, but I think that the Renegade or a similar shotgun.

I also think that the HE and HEAT weapons need to be overhauled while we are at it. Especially HE could be replaced with an ESAI variant, and HE could get some kind of ability or secondary utility as well to make it more useful.

It's not quite true that the ESFs all just have machine guns for their primary weapons.

The Air Hammer is a semi-automatic shotgun that fires explosive pellets.

The Banshee is an automatic grenade launcher.

And the LPPA can only be considered a "machine gun" if by some strange extension the Lasher is also a machine gun.

In general things like the LPPA are actually about as effective as Lightning HE when measured by KPH. The Banshee used to be better than the HE or Viper cannons at killing infantry, prior to the nerf.

This is why it's fine for Lightnings to get their main cannon in addition to stronger secondaries... the main cannon by themselves were not terribly more effective than ESF noseguns.

Those weapons are only useful against infantry. The Banshee might fire explosive grenades, but they don't deal any real damage against tanks. HE shells might not be that useful, but AP is incredibly powerful. A combination of a Hornet version combined with AP would be extremely OP. It would make Lightnings capable of eliminating MBT's from behind faster than the TankBuster can, and maybe even from the front.
I'm all for upgrading lightnings and MBT's, but it needs to be reasonable. Aircraft have sported OP loadouts since the beginning, with more accuracy, ammo and power than their ground counterparts even after they were nerfed, with the added insults of reloading while switched, two weapon systems at a time and multiple other advantages on the aircraft itself such as auto-granted afterburner, 2x better fire suppression, a standard cruise speed that allows attacks and escapes in mere seconds from any ground unit, the ability to move across any terrain without effort and use any of this rough terrain as cover rather than obstacle etc.
My point is, just because one thing is OP we don't need to make other stuff OP as well. We can keep it reasonable while still making it killer weapons.

They should scarp the current lightning design and go for a more empire specific design instead that stays more true to the original concept. Current lightning design is so clunky my inner Tank lover just screams for someone to fix it every time i hit a bump with it.
Much like the square frame of the TR prowler *shudders* and the offset barrels....brrr i need to go lie down now

Looking at the first model you posted, it would be really cool to get something like that on the lightning. A sort of anti-infantry option, like how you can turn the lightning into a Skyguard.

Hopefully the AI option would be better at killing infantry than the Skyguard is at killing aircraft!

Because deterrents are terrible in terms of a gameplay mechanic. The Lightning needs to KILL KILL KILL!

I'm pretty sure this would make the lightning a mini-prowler.

I can see an argument for a co-axial kobalt. That would be nice, actually.

But some of these suggestions are over-the-top.

This from the guy suggesting adding bombs to the Valkyrie.

I'd be okay with the Lightning having reduced armour then. To make it more like an ESF glass cannon. After all, most modern Light Tanks are simply made from kicking infantry out of an IFV and mounting a bigger gun on top. Generally they have fairly weak armour... more just a way to bring a bigger gun to a fight. The Sprut SDM1, for example, packs the same cannon as a MBT. But the armour is from a BMD-4, which only resists 30mm weapons from the front.

Since the only IFV in the game is the Sunderer, it would be fine to have Lightning HP, armour, and resistance be reduced to that of a simple truck. I think that would be plenty fair, because how well-armoured could a dinky wheeled little truck be?

Only a few APC/AFV have STANAG 5-6 armors (25-30mm APFSDS) most of them have STANAG lvl 3 sometimes 4. Basicly, APC/AFV can only stand against AI weapons and light AV ammunitions.


I would not mind to bring lightening armour a bit down (maybe bring up the addon armors) and give it a coax machine gun.
I'm a bit affraid that a kobalt like weapon will make HE gun useless in most situation. Maybe a weak version with less RPM.
Definitly not a 20mm guns. There are enough drums of war on the battlefields right now, and it would make the skyguard useless against liberators.
A secondary gun could be a dumb fire rocket launcher.
I would replace the HE gun by a banshee/PPA/HA version.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Lightning with an option to use downgraded weapon systems like dual-linked Kobalts or a Basilisk.

No. BMD4 and 2S25 are not comparable to the lightning. They both use light weight aluminum armor because they are air-mobile AFVs intended to be air-dropped to support the VDV. By definition their armor is lighter for this reason, not due to incorporating additional armament. If they used RHA or conventional composites, they would not be air-droppable, and thus would have no advantages over the BMP and BTR series.

Furthermore, the 2S25 is actually based on the chassis from the BMD-3, and the BMD-4 is a direct evolution of the BMD-3.

The armor and armament on the Lightning, including the weapon loadouts, does not bear much comparison to those contemporary weapons. The nearest comparison would be the Leopard 1, a 1963 West German MBT, the chassis of which was re-used and adapted to create the Flakpanzer Gepard, which would be classified as a skyguard for our purposes.

For our purposes, the lightning should be considered an older generation MBT, or an MBT created for Export (Which, being NS, it is), with the Prowler, Magrider, and Vanguard being the current, top of the line MBTs. It functions as a light tank, but was designed as an MBT at the time.

A good example of this is how T-54s and T-72s are still in service around the world, and in some cases still in production or rebuild cycles, yet are easily outclassed by the current generation of MBTs. Both are designed using similar principles, but are not a good match anymore. The armor values of the lightning reflect this notion, and should not be changed.

I feel it would be more prudent to simply provision a single Kobalt HMG to all lightnings as a co-axial weapon, MBTs should not be modified as such, nor should any other aspects be changed. MBTs already have additional weapons, and adding more driver controlled weapons would not be beneficial to the game experience, as it would encourage farming and would not encourage people to actively seek gunners.

The problem with that is that HE is incredibly weak on tanks. Consider for example the effects of 120mm HE (the Lightning is 100mm, but it's still a valid point):



A single HE tank shell should do significant damage to an entire platoon... and two HE tank shells should put that platoon out of commission. IRL 120mm HE tank shells have ~2,000sqm of potentially lethal damage, whereas in PS2 120mm HE can't kill you unless it lands right on top of you.

The danger isn't that potential Lightning secondaries are too strong... it's that Lightning primary weapons are far too weak. Buffing tank HE weapons so that they reflect a range-compressed version of their real life power would mean that no one would care about coaxial Kobalts on anything.

The Lightning was pretty much made to be air droppable... you can tell by the handles on the Lightning model. Since no current option exists for that, I suppose it's made up by the Lightning's ability to be pulled from any base to reflect the greater ease of deployment over MBTs.

But the Sprut SDM1 that I was referring to is indeed based on a BMD-4, not a BMD-3. The "M" stands for "modernized", and you seem to be confusing the original Sprut with the M1 version.

But those are not "light tanks", which of course makes sense because they are classified as MBTs (just old MBTs). Modern "light tanks" are not T-54s, T-72s, or Gepards, but include a series of vehicles that were built from the ground up as true "light tanks". These include:

M551 Sheridan Light Tank

152mm low pressure primary gun, 7.62mm coaxial MG, 12.7mm roof HMG, could also fire ATGMs

The above-mentioned Sprut SDM1 comes with a 125mm primary gun (that can fire ATGMs), a 7.62mm coaxial MG, and a 7.62mm roof MG.

ZTD-05 Light Tank

105mm main gun (ATGM capable), 7.62mm coaxial MG, 12.7mm roof HMG

ZTQ Light Mountain Tank

105/125mm main gun (can fire ATGMs), 7.62mm coaxial MG, currently no roof MG

Each of these has fairly light armour. Can definitely resist HMG fire, and possibly autocannon fire from the front. But probably would not be heavily armoured against other tanks (after all the purpose of these weapons isn't to fight other tanks directly). Those are characteristics of current generation light tanks.

All I want is a xipos turret for the lighting.

Those are indeed MBTs that I mentioned, because I view the lightning tank in the same fashion - a first generation MBT on auraxis that has been superceded by the current ES MBTs.

What I'm saying is that I don't think we should be playing with the Lightning's armor, even if it does get a co-axial gun. It already feels fairly weak to me.

Then I think you will have no problems at all about "downgrading" Lightning durability and armour to the levels of a mere Sunderer.

The reason that MBT's don't have co axial weapons is the lack of need as why should the driver get the Big Gun (except on the Magrider seeing as most of the secondaries do more damage than its main pea shooter, but that's a completely different gripe) and a machine gun?

If the driver was merely to drive the MBT and needed a crew of at least one other person to fire the main gun and another for the secondary, then it might be a good idea (in fact it would be a rather good idea, but the magrider would need to get a second turret added).

As to the Lightning at least the Skyguard should get a secondary weapon system (15mm or 20mm machine gun?) so its not so fecking useless when the airs ran away.

I'd like to see the Lightning at least get a new main gun with two AI machine guns like those on the Xiphos (Anti-Infantry) Phalanx turrets. Why? Because you are more than likely to not find any in the many, MANY locations, and most likely the majority of them all is in Hossin. (Who knows why.)

I used to be against this but time wises all. It would be a proper counter to c4/mine soloist.

Just what I said.

Incredible how suggestions and interests for more vehicle specializations and variations go completely ignored for two years. And in the opposite direction.