Liberators, walls of text, and you.

The other day, as I was playing support in a random zerg platoon... a blob of Air approached, and ruined our day... leaving my repair sundy in ruins. Yep, it happens! It was a coordinated strike, and we didn't have nearly enough AA to touch the sudden appearance of 2 squads of ESFs and libs. This type of scenario is common, and the ability of Air in general to coordinate strikes adds an element of difficulty and fun to the game in general. (No, not going to comment much on render ranges here - but they need work for ground vs air to interact properly.)

As any good versatile player would do, I redeployed and hoofed it to the nearest tank terminal, and grabbed a Skyguard. Unfortunately for me, a smart liberator crew anticipated this, and was stealth hovering just out of render range, above the vehicle exit point. As my Skyguard rolled out of the bay... I looked up, and instantly began firing at the descending dalton launcher with it's cross-hairs up my nose. It took about 2 seconds for the gunner to return fire. Hitting 90-95% of the time, at 200-225 meters... he won the DPS race after missing 2 rounds... 60% health or so remaining. This is the only time this has happened to me, so no, i'm not all that angry... he anticipated the flow of battle, positioned well for it, and collected certs for his forethought.

What troubles me, is that a hard-counter AA unit, even with first strike advantage can loose a DPS race with a unit it was designed to remove from existence.


And now, rambling.

The main problem with Liberators is that of the typical scaling issues the game faces. It scales well when faced with anything but dedicated AA units. Multiple AA units are needed to do much of anything versus a wily Liberator pilot, as a single Skyguard will fall to a good lib crew, and if the lib has armor... the lib won't even take half damage in the time a shredder / dalton can melt the lightning. Since Liberators have enough mitigation, HP, and escape utility to effectively participate in 48+ vs 48+ encounters.. this means they have the ability to absolutely dominate smaller fights. Six people in G2G tanks won't be able to do much of anything but scatter and panic vs a competent dalton gunner sitting at 400 meters.

The argument of 'Even a 2/3 Lib should be able to outgun a 1/1 lightning!' is one worthy of consideration, which makes this a difficult problem to approach. In my opinion, the versatility afforded by 3 weapon systems and a potential 3 crew members is great enough that the Liberator should be able to effectively engage all targets, provided they are equipped to do so. Such a powerful system requires counters, and that counter should be a hard one to overcome if it's present (Skyguard, anyone?)

It's true that anyone can pull a Skyguard to counter a Liberator, once they've unlocked it... but the same is also true of a Liberator. A liberator, however, can effectively engage all targets, and relocate swiftly to other fights when desired - the Lightning cannot do either of these things. For a hard counter, the Skyguard is lackluster... for everything it gives up to shoot at air effectively, it's just not strong enough. Add to the fact that a Liberator can be pulled from ANY base with air consoles, and is highly mobile... while the Lightning can only be pulled from tank consoles, and is relatively non-mobile... perhaps something needs to change.

While it takes a high degree of skill to learn well... the liberator can go where it pleases, and engage anything it pleases... this is fun.

The Skyguard is typically pulled in a reactionary manner, more often then not. The driver gets to sit there and stare up, while occasionally frantically searching for C4 Navi's wanting you to listen to their song of C4 with an accompaniment of jet-pack flatulence. This is not fun, and is less so then it was prior to the removal of proxy radar. (Seriously, it might as well not exist for the lightning, given the slot it was moved to.)

Some possible changes:

Buff the Skyguard's level of fun to encourage accompanying platoons for air-guard duty. This has been asked for many times, by many people, for many vehicles... but the addition of a coaxial Kobalt for the skyguard would go a long way. Give the skyguard an AI-specific solution along with it's dedicated AA cannons. Sitting around waiting for air to shoot at sucks once it's gone. Even an AP lightning can farm infantry with good aim, the skyguard cannot do so at any effective range that wont result in exploding.

Buff the Skyguard flack versus the Liberator specifically, with no changes vs ESF / Galaxy. I can live with current engagement ranges - if the Liberator is flying high enough that all I can do is tickle him, chances are I can run effectively due to shell travel time from extreme altitude. If a Liberator stoops on a Skyguard for a point blank salvo, the Skyguard should be able to shred the thing into a fine, nanite-laden mist of tears and debris.

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The Liberator can hard-counter armor, while the Skyguard can be taken out by literally any air vehicle geared for A2G Burst damage. Rocketpods are blinding, you can't return fire... if the ESF catches you off guard, ok - it snuck up on you, pay more attention. Thermals can see through explosions (Last I checked, at least) so that effect can be mitigated.

Liberators have too much health and resistance, even if a skyguard sees it coming, and strikes first - the Lib can still win with health to spare. This should be changed.



If anyone has read this far, feel free to comment


TL;DR Words. Lots of them. Consecutively.

I spend almost all of my time with my feet planted firmly on the Auraxis ground as well, and sympathize with you. Good job in complimenting the skill of the Lib pilot and gunner, but that must have been a frustrating situation.

The most recent changes to the Lib have allowed the pilots to play a much bolder style. They can hang around in an area much longer than they should and continue to absorb the damage as they leave their area of operation for repairs. Unless something fast like a friendly ESF is able to follow and continue to cause damage, they will be back at full health in about 45 seconds.

Your suggestions of what to change would fix the situation, but I am of the opinion that things should remain the same. No single SkyGuard, Burster Max, or Lock-On Rocket Launcher should counter a Lib. ESFs, yes, but not a Lib. Any combination of two of these weapons should bring fear to a Lib pilot, though.

I would support the addition of faction specific AA weapons designed to engage slower moving air targets (for example railgun for NC, 4 walkers strapped together for TR, a charge up laser beam for VS - a charge up mechanic that would make sense!!) mostly just because I like faction weapons over NS.

Skygaurd is amazing anyway btw and the game certainly doesn't need any more AA options. It just needs to stress that by not learning to fly and A2A ESF you are not being as helpful to your team as you could be.

You can say "I only play infantry" or "I don't like to pull tanks" or similar statements but I don't want the game to cater to this attitude. Atm we have 3 resources which build up separately so clearly you should try to use all 3 for maximum effectiveness. If SOE change the resource system to encourage specialization then i will retract that statement but right now they clearly intend for you to play what is needed when it is needed and to be versatile.
I have over 75% of my kills as infantry but I can still effectively pilot an A2A ESF or anti-tank MBT to deal with different threats. It is your decision not to learn to fly.

TLDNR - It is not unreasonable to expect people to use the counter (ESF) given to them and the current G2A deterrents do a more than decent job of lowering the effectiveness of uncontested enemy air many-fold without eliminating the need for friendly air support (you know, combined arms).

IMO, they should lower the cost of AA weapons (or make them a default option) and give vehicles refit stations. Biggest issue with G2A is not that it can't do it's job, but that it takes a commitment, isn't accessible unless you spend 1k certs on something (1-burster arm Max is a joke), and leaves you with a near useless tank/ESF when the air is gone.

I only go MAX for AA now exactly because I know that when the liberator gets driven off/bored/goes to find small fights to farm/makes a mistake and crashes/gets shot d--lol, couldn't finish that with a straight face--I can swap my weapons to AV or AI (and then back to AA) without having to dump my resource-pulled unit.

A single skyguard shouldn't out DPS a partially or fully manned lib. The point has been made here time and time again.

In a game where developers hunger for "food" (funny commercial in-game) noone can expect them to hunger for balance....

A single Skyguard should be able to hit-trade with a 1/3 Lib. This point has been made time and time again.

However, the Liberator with Composite and a Tank Buster can face-trade with the front of any ground vehicle in the game.

This is not correct. The Liberator has extra maneuverability, it should be forced to use it. It shouldn't be able to absorb as many rounds as an MBT and fly away.

Also, @OP, that Liberator didn't "tactically anticipate your move". He was jsut hovering far behind the lines of battle, locking down an un-capturable facility, because that's what the vehicle is capable of. Never attribute to tactics what can be explained by farming.

I agree entirely.

Additionally, IMO, I think things like AV Phalax turrets, tank primary cannons, and dumbfires should be effective AA weapons. They're fun and skill based, the opposite of flak and lock-ons.

Yep, the skyguard is amazing, nope, we don't need any more AA options. I play everything from infantry to armor to air, with a minimum of 3-5000 certs in every vehicle there is. The thing is... I was being versatile. Going from repair sundy to anti air is me adapting to the battle - I pulled 2 bases behind the front lines. ESFs are not the only counter for air (Skyguard - it's a ground based, quad-barrel rapid fire flack cannon - had to get more AA specific then that)

I know how to fly, thus I knew that pulling ONE esf to face two dozen air units was an exercise in pointlessness... thus pulling a Skyguard from behind the lines. The lib anticipated the move, and came to counter it, great. Yes, I mentioned to the platoon that pulling ESFs / libs of our own would be a good thing, but given the zerg platoon... no gurantees, and I wasn't about to solo engage.

... How did my commentary on Skyguard vs Lib balance turn into "It is your decision not to learn to fly." anyway? That entered into my post exactly nowhere.

Stating that "The point has been made" doesn't contribute all that much. Allowing the Skyguard to counter Liberators more effectively was only one of my suggestions. It's fine against other air units.

The Liberator is effectively "Air versus everything" ... with virtually every possible non-duster loadout, with high mobility and high mitigation. This is a good thing, I enjoy the hell out of mine.

The Skyguard is exclusively ground versus air, with almost no defenses vs it's hard counter (Tanks with anything other then a skyguard) and minimum AI capabilities. Sitting around waiting for air to float through sucks.

All I am saying is that it should either :
a) do it's job slightly better against what it was designed to counter. Libs have versatility, Skyguards don't. Due to this, they are typically only pulled AFTER they are needed. An alternative to this would be to give skyguards slightly more armor versus liberator belly guns.

OR

b) Be given a higher degree of versatility. With a coaxial Kobalt (Or something that allows it greater versatility) More Skyguards will be pulled. (You know, combined arms) Due to drivers no longer being stuck staring at the sky, waiting for targets. AI seems the most fair here, as it would still leave them almost completely vulnerable to enemy armor and other misc AV solutions. Limiting optics to the standard 'nothing' seems fair in exchange for being allowed to exist.

Um....
OP actually said this. Did you read?

Probably, but the result was the same on my end. I do this occasionally as well... when friendlies pull piles of air, AA will be pulled from the nearest available base, making for a few easy targets while the initial reaction scramble happens.

As you said, it's just what the vehicle is capable of. It's not the player's fault they are using the vehicle within it's abilities, just as it's not my fault for not seeing an air unit hovering above render. When pulling AA, I almost always hop in the nearest AA turret to do a quick scan before visiting the terminal... so this was either bad luck on timing, good planning, or good farming

On one hand, I kind of have to agree with lib pilots that coordination is and should be overpowered. On the other hand, there aren't enough fun effective ways to take down heavy air. I'd personally like to see a dumbfire rocket with really small drop, fast speed, fast reload, and the same resistances against air as the stock dumbfires, but no blast radius and piddling damage against tanks and infantry.
Eituer that, or make the skyguard do more damage to infantry.

I agree with this, for the most part.
Coordination is, and should be overpowered - Learning where your gunner can see compared to what a pilot can see is the most difficult part of liberating (For me, at least.) ... as is communicating with one another, due to general voice chat buggyness. Liberators are easy to fly once you know enough to land and take off without crashing. The sheer versatility of the platform after even minimal experience is staggering. This results in LOTS of liberators, especially after the recent buffs.

Skyguards ... the hardest part of using these is learning to gauge distance and lead targets effectively. Given my prior shooter gaming experience, this took about 40 minutes to get good at. Looking up and holding down Mouse 1 is about as easy as it gets. It's the mitigation that removes the Skyguard's effectiveness, along with it's inability to do anything when there isnt air around. Lots of skyguards can clear the air quickly, 3 or 4 are enough to counter almost any amount of air if they coordinate, you can obliterate a platoon of average ESF and lib pilots with half a squad of dedicated AA.


The problem with the above two mechanics, is that it leads to there being lots of liberators at all times. They can engage anything, anywhere, and can make a big difference in the largest of fights. Skyguards are effective at clearing the skies, but are boring when there arent any targets, thus there are so few of them... until after air has already devastated friendlies. Once the air is cleared, the skyguards are disposed of due to sheer boring-ness. Taking on a limited, but effective (Kobalt without optics would be wonderful) anti infantry role when there's nothing in the sky to shoot at would alleviate this. The rarity of AA until Air appears to shoot at is why AA in general is so powerful. If there was more of it, individual units wouldn't need to be quite as potent as they are. The easiest way to affect this, would be to give current AA solutions alternate roles when there's nothing to shoot at.


Or, they could just give us vehicle refitting stations already, which would fix virtually every issue I listed. I'd pull a skyguard on a whim if I knew I could head back and grab my AP cannon when it was needed.

Sorry GaBeRock, kinda hijacked my own response. I blame my colorado-stabled horse. It's difficult to dismount once he starts gaining altitude.

OP ended his wall of text with this:

Now reading comprehension has never been my forte, but I believe my comment is still an appropriate response.

Instead of vehicle terminals, what I want to see is the "advanced vehicle deconstruction update." It'll basically work like a vehicle terminal where you have to pay a resource cost to switch loadouts, and comes with the added benefit of effectively serving as vehicle zoning.

That quote is taken out of context, and is an appropriate response to one of my suggested solutions. Farther up my wall of text, I stated
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"The argument of 'Even a 2/3 Lib should be able to outgun a 1/1 lightning!' is one worthy of consideration, which makes this a difficult problem to approach. In my opinion, the versatility afforded by 3 weapon systems and a potential 3 crew members is great enough that the Liberator should be able to effectively engage all targets, provided they are equipped to do so. Such a powerful system requires counters, and that counter should be a hard one to overcome if it's present (Skyguard, anyone?) "
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The Liberator is versatile in terms of the variety of targets it can engage. That, paired with it's mobility and mitigation makes it much too powerful compared to what is designed to be it's counter. Currently, even a 1/3 Liberator can facetank and obliterate a Skyguard unloading into it's cockpit, and fly off with health to spare.

In terms of buffs versus liberators, specifically... I would be in favor of granting a damage bonus at extreme close range. If the lib wants to park it's landing gear on my hatch, they should pay for it. Additional mitigation versus the unit it was designed to counter would not go amiss either.

What I would personally prefer over any additional offensive or defensive bonuses, is an increase in versatility. The Liberator can fly as well as take more damage then your average MBT, while retaining the ability to damage armor, infantry, and air to a devastating degree. The Skyguard... can shoot air, and occasionally infantry in a manner less effective then the Vulcan. Skyguards are as specialized a unit as you can pull, it should either do it's job well enough to counter it's intended targets, or be granted an additional measure of versatility to encourage use.

if you buff the skygaurd it makes being a esf pilot a suicide mission. just make a slow ROF high damage flack weapon were its very hard to take out a esf even if you hit 1 it will put it into burning not kill it. but a slow lib/gal will be relatively easy to hit and will kill it in about half the time of a skygaurd maybe less or more depending on what the test server shows.

If you read my entire post, you will notice that this was only one of the options I listed, and even then... I noted that any buffs in damage would be specifically versus Liberators. Performance would be unaffected when facing ESF / Galaxies.

Such a thing could be done very easily by giving Skyguards their own resist type and reducing the Liberator's resistance to it.

Sorry I noticed that after a re read the post my bad a read buff the sky guard and replied without reading all of it.