[Suggestion] Liberators Nerf, Nerf, Nerf!

Translation: "Statistics that disprove my point but that I cannot refute so I just completely ignore what does not fit with my worldview."

Really the only thing I can think of that would skew these statistics are 1/3 Liberators. Where the Dalton remains empty until the nosegunner switches over for that killshot. Sort of how sidearm KPHs are unusually high.

But this can't possibly be true, as Liberator pilots tell me that 1/3 Liberators are horribly ineffective and totally not a thing, because if they were a thing then it would absolutely break the balance of a vehicle that is meant for at least two people to use.

These are of course the same Liberator pilots who are enraged when you suggest that seat swapping limitations and auto-stalling should be a thing for Liberators.

Oh, the Titan AP is great at AA you say? Let's compare AKPH values!

Air Kills Per Hour
NC Dalton: 12.03
Titan AP: 2.05

So the Dalton is 487% more effective at killing aircraft than the Vanguard's AP cannon.

Why?

Probably because of the chassis. For a vehicle meant for A2G work, the Liberator has surprising agility, able to quickly turn and track mobile targets with its "belly of death". The Vanguard on the other hand is stuck in a 2D plane and has very limited traverse so cannot engage enemy aircraft without foresight and planning (or if the pilot just happens to be really, really stupid). Additionally the Liberator has the speed to keep up with and destroy most aircraft while the Vanguard can only trundle along.

I don't even think you can compare the Dalton to the Titan in an AA role and keep a straight face.

Yes, the Titan AP puts up good AA numbers. It accounts for a decent % of Air deaths.

I wasn't listing Titan AP as a comparison to Dalton. I was listing it as an example of something else that performs well beyond its intended role.

It all depends on what you are looking at. More ESF Pilots die to Titan AP than they do to any specific Faction's Dalton. This is a heavy warning to non-NC ESF Pilots to be extra wary of Vanguards. Sure, there are LOTS more Vanguards than Libs, but because we are looking at Causes Of Death, it still registers as a target to watch out for. Just as there is terrain all over the map, but an ESF Pilot has to be extra wary of it cause it causes the vast majority of all ESFs Destroyed.

I think the lesson to take away though is if an ESF pilot is facing off against a Vanguard and a Dalton Liberator, then very clearly the Liberator is the greater threat. Sure Vanguards might appear more frequently, but strictly between the two the Liberator is more to be feared.

And that's a problem. Because ESFs are meant to be fighter craft who should swat Liberators down with ease. Instead you have a situation where the mouse chases (and eventually kills) the cat.

In my opinion Liberators should have next to no AA capability... only enough self-defense options to allow it to survive for a few more seconds until its ESF escort can catch up to deal with the enemy air presence. Sending in a Liberator into a contested airspace without an ESF escort ought to be a suicide mission.

Sure it's nice to pull statistics like this and adorn it with a nice use of the nearest calculator...
Of course daltons kill way more air, libs actually engage in air to air combat and therefore have many more opportunities to kill air. Vanguard's main targets are ESFs doing ground attack, most of which are scrambling for cover from the massive amounts of AA everyone pulls. I assure you however that shooting with a faster cannon from a stationary platform is much easier than daltoning.

I guess you will argue that libs should have no AA capabilities whatsoever, but, well, why? To create some imaginary air metagame where imaginary ESFs would escort libs and chill with them while they did their thing? Because that wouldn't happen, unless the lib got a massive A2G buff in tandem with the massive A2A nerf. We're talking one hit kill from above on lightnings or it just wouldn't be worth it, I can't even imagine the tears this would cause. Besides, I guarantee that there isn't a serious ESF pilot who would rather take on an equal amount of equally skilled people in ESFs than those people in a Lib. If we're going to remove playstyles that can be very fun (and that is pretty much the only thing holding up most A2A daltoners, because it's fun) but don't really fit the description of what is used in them we can just continue dumbing down the game until any form of variety is dead.

I was really hoping they were going to do this with the Duster. Make it a superior payload to the Zephyr, but give it a crazy long reload of 10-20 seconds. There should should be at least one gun where you want to fly in, dump the payload, then fly off while you wait for the re-arm. Bombing runs. It'd be a fun alternative to hover-camping targets.

Let me guess, primarily an objective based player, and not a cert farmer?

Its ironic, farmers get farmed and then think something is imbalanced. They don't realize they have to pay the piper once in a while. If you're farming certs, you gotta give certs to someone else once in a while. Even Libs get farmed once in a while by organized players when they get too close.

Downside to a lib:

You just don't know if that massed formation of infantry are zerglings to be farmed, or a group of hard-d-cked organized players looking to hit you like a (cert) pinata. Not until its too late.

And then we get useless stats posted like KPU against a chain flak gun. I want a new stat. NoBC. Number of Bases Captured. I bet the medic class has contributed more to this than Libs.

My 2 cents:

If the Liberator had its resistance to Skyguard reduced, by say 20%.(tweak a bit).. and ESFs would do 15% more damage to the Lib (tweak a bit), when closer than 150meters (so the lib has a chance to defend with its AA), then most arguments would fail to matter.
After all, it's a Joint Arms game.. right?

I.E.: if the above would be implemented, then...
if your squad or team didn't bring a Skyguard to the battle, then you can't complain when a Lib ruins your day.
if your side doesn't have enough ESFs getting close enough to fight the Lib, then you can't complain.

If we look at balance in the overall game, not on a solo tank gets caught by a Lib..., then there are counters, Skyguard, ESFs.. but, right now, they are a bit too weak against the Lib.
Once the Skyguard and ESFs can dish out a bit more damage against the Lib, those counters will get pulled more and balance the issue. Then the Liberator crew has to decide if it is worth it to shoot the dalton one more time, or get the hell out of dodge, because the HP is dropping fast on the Lib..

It would not require and speed nerf or dalton nerf on the Lib.. because, with the above, the lib would need that speed to get away, it would need that dalton to dish out some damage in a short time, before they have to turn tail with smoke trailing behind them..
That would be a bit more balanced.

If you get caught alone, unaware, by a Lib, you die.. same as if you are any Infantry and I get you with a Prowler AP or Magrider FPC in the face.. that doesn't mean they are not balanced in the overall game.

top crews are doing a good job of supporting objective play, but top crews don't really farm unless there is honestly nothing else to do. and even then with all the AI nerfs we're mostly just farming reps and making 1-3 kill passes over high pop zerg battles.

no, most often a dalton lib will be the one that breaks the siege at places like SNA, or Howling Pass, Quartz Ridge, NC Arsenal, Auraxis Firearms, all those places that infantry like to get sunderers and tanks lined up on two sides and circle jerk all night. we're the ones who rain on that parade by knocking down guys who aim their tank cannons at a tower doorway and tape down their left mouse. we're the ones who float over the target-fixed rocketpodders and boop them out of existance. we're the ones who seek and destroy even the best placed sunderers and even if we don't get the kill, it's our alpha damage and probable loss of our vehicle that allows someone to get in there and break those engineers abusing the sundy terminal to reset their repair gun cooldown. yes that's a thing.

and now that redeploy is much more difficult, it is we, again, breaking inbound galaxies and maintaining friendly airspace (or tanking flak and lock ons, assuring that many less guns pointed at our ground guys.)

so no, we don't capture bases. but we very often make it our business to be sure that our ground forces do.

this is newberish solo-playing nonsense... if you get farmed in your magrider driving all alone in the pampa, it's your own fault...

it's just a matter of counter measures... (on cobalt) 50% of vs are playing maxes 100% of their playtime... so they always have enough bursters running around.... 80% of tr are playing heavies with logons, rest ist playing mossis and lib... nc is playing completly without any AA....well, they dont even know that there are any aa weapons (on cobalt)

also, try to fly a nc lib on cobalt.... if an esf pilot knows what hes doing and isnt a complete newb, he keeps his distance and/or circles easy around a lib...only a bad pilot gets too close....

you obviously dont fly a lib, else you would know how frustrating it can get sometimes... and how easy it is to create a no fly zone (at least for tr and vs- nc is too stupid)

Lib (1/3) vs Maggy (1/2) & If Lib sneaks up = Lib wins - easily , else Maggy can strafe, climb some 90° wall and it can get tricky -> But Lib wins anyways

Lib (2/3) vs Maggy (1/2) = Lib wins - easily

But this not singleplayer game.... join a platoon and stay with them, if you're not on cobalt & nc there's always enough AA to protect you...

Do you run with just a 2-3 man lib crew or in support of a larger squad or platoon?

Your new nickname is going to be Bill O'Reilly.

Ok Bill, here is the context you left out that may deflate or even inflate your numbers (may hurt or help your argument) but you left out because you'd rather take a zero context argument than...reality.

Translation: People who purposefully ignore the whole picture are unable to handle the truth -- as such they twist what part they like to fit their world view. In this argument this is you.

Some, but not all, of the context around Daltons vs Skyguards.

1. Recovery from hit time: The Dalton has none. If your ESF gets hit its done. Whereas the skyguard you have a few seconds to get away. That doesn't make the Dalton better -- just more instantaneous. If skyguards waited until ESFs got closer instead of firing at them as soon as they rendered they would probably get more kills. Relatively speaking (I dont know if this exists or not) it would be better to compare damage done vs air with a skyguard vs damage done vs air with a dalton.
2. Counterability: ESFs can counter daltons far easier than they can skyguards. Lack of situational awareness is also something you decided to not mention.
3. Prevalence: There may be more daltons firing in general. I honestly don't know about that. There may be more skyguards.
4. Accuracy: The Dalton is FAR more accurate than the skyguard -- unless the target is moving -- in which case the dalton is less accurate and requires FAR more skill. ie. it is much easier to hit a dodging zig zagging esf (and of course lib) with a skyguard than it is to hit a dodging zigzagging lightning (especially with their awesome acceleration). Of course you don't need to hit as often.

I am not drawing any conclusions arguing for or against your argument Bill, because here is the thing -- you may be right. The Dalton may be better at AA than skyguards. But that math alone is not enough to say so -- much LESS say it is x% (specific numbers) "better." Discuss the context and situations as well as the numbers and you might end up being right.

I don't know about other MBTs but when you're in a Magrider and a Lib has decided to get you, nothing can prevent this from happening. Even if you got that turret mounted "AA" gun (LMAO) the pilot will just get close to a heart attack because of an an uncontrolled laugh and then will puncture your Mag as if it was butter. It will then go away while th epilot will think "Oh, I'd rather repair that scratch on the paint, it's so disgraceful ! Wait, I don't need that, I certed auto-repair too !!"

it depends. it's both. we were in one really great objective based outfit on Connery TR for a long time, with good leaders. and we played ground with them too, when it was like, OPs night or what have you. but after a while they sort of devolved into zerg play, and then the air players turned into this really gross gank squad that we didn't want to be a part of. then ultimately they all left for VS and were taken over by someone with a very toxic personality that (side story) actually went behind our backs to all our friends to turn them against us like something out of a teen novel for 14 year old girls. no joke/true story. the sad thing is we lost really good friends because of that. an especially sad loss of two of the best lib pilots in the game, that i had considered friends.

so. we play in our own squad, with my gunner as squad leader or PL. and we play like i described, and have played for all factions on Connery, TR and NC on Cobalt, and TR and NC on Emerald. we've built Libs from scratch to 25,000+ certs 7 times. we've joined outfits a few times, and watched them go the exact same route as the other. zerg platoons, sloppy play, and orders that have no understanding of what we are able to do, and not able to do. very often orders from the ground are just ignorant of the reality we face.

for example we'd be told to focus on an impossible target or simply kicked from platoon for being in the next lane supporting another push. or we'd offer to do a quick resecure in a 1-12 because we can do commando work like that, being not-great but pretty experienced on the ground. for example we'll move in as 3 people in a lib, clear the MBTs, clear the sundie, deploy a LA to knock out rooftop/antenna beacons, replace with our own, and then land on a roof and clear the point. sometimes it's actually 8 dudes in that capture point, in which case we respawn heavy and report to PL since we are essentially just a heavy recon unit. but if it's just 3 guys in there, why not just clear it? if their spawns are gone and they aren't good, we'll clear it and then re-mount the lib and push the lane by assaulting whatever vehicle reinforcements were on the way. or we'll clear a path for our friendlies to get their own spawns in place. often fights like that are dominated by 1 rocketpodder that is all but mediocre in A2A, so all we need to do is engage and destroy that guy and our ground guys (maybe good, probably not) can actually get across the base to play the game.

but the average PL doesn't know to make use of us in that way. they'd just redeploy 48 guys there to sit for 3 minutes and redeploy again. and like i said, we'd often get kicked for doing that on our own because PLs see us 1500-2500m away and they want 3 more zerglings at their 96+ v 96+ farm fest.

so. it's both. we watch what our ground guys are doing, like we're pushing lanes in a MOBA. we know what they need, even if they don't always know it. we see the game from a broader perspective, literally. and so often our squad is just 3 people. and part of that is we don't get a lot of cross chatter, and we can place our own waypoints, and we can split-push so we don't get bored. but we have played in support of larger platoons and organized outfits, it's mostly a matter of not being put to use when we do, or just not having what we do even known. an example of this would be that PL obliviously places a marker and smoke on a sunderer location we just obliterated. it happens all the time. waiting around for ground orders to filter up to air units is just that many more seconds the enemy has to do what they were doing uninterrupted.

does that explain it? wall of text i know. sorry. i don't talk about it much so i guess it's sort of all coming out. if you have more specific questions i can have a conversation in PMs or we can arrange to play on your server/faction some time. i kindof want to stop bumping these ****posts.

there is also a degree of survivor bias, in that the only daltons to actually get kills per hour as opposed to just getting wrecked in one of the many ways bad libs get wrecked, are the ones that can fight A2A against ESF and other Libs. these Libs are being attacked by ESF on average 1 per 2 minutes, and while there are rare times you go 10-20 minutes without an A2A attack, that quiet time will suddenly be broken by a 4 v 1 gank.

there is also selection bias towards A2A in that experienced Libs must always prioritized air first in order to begin taking select ground targets. the exception to this is spawn camping AI libs that basically just follow large friendly zergs and rely on that for some amount of AA. but they still usually die to an ESF or a Lib team like mine, that primarily focuses on aggressive A2A first, and AV in support of friendly ground forces second.

This is also all true.

Sometimes when no one is focusing on the air even the zephyr or duster will wreck all of the armor. When people are paying attention to the air the lib can't get a single kill in. The problem is situations are too varied due to fight size numbers changing the game so much.

Because... balance? Counters? Fair gameplay?

Think of the MBTs. They are supposed to wreck anything on the ground, but their counter is aircraft who can attack them outside of their main cannon traverse. As shown by the statistics, MBTs don't kill off aircraft very often at all... with the Vanguard's ~2 AKPH that means on average it's killing one aircraft every 30 minutes. In comparison, that's a little less than what the Valkyrie's Hellion gets, and everyone knows the Valkyrie is harmless as heck.

So what would happen if we massively buffed the Vanguard's AP cannon so that it had the same AKPH as the Liberator's Dalton? Made it almost hit-scan and do massive damage to aircraft? To the point where its AKPH matched that of the Dalton?

Well most pilots would probably be throwing hissyfits. And they would say that it would be unfair for a vehicle to be both good at G2G and G2A roles, because it would give nothing up for that.

And yet... isn't that the state of the Liberator? The Dalton currently kills more vehicles per hour than any AP cannon save the Prowler's, yet also shows tremendous viability as an A2A craft. Your position is that the Liberator shouldn't have to rely on air superiority fighters because of "fun", but in this way it would also break balance. The more freely Liberators can roam about without effective counters, then the more they can use their powerful weapons. And this means it's not "fun" for other non-Liberator players.

Today in PS2 Skyguards rely on other tanks and in return those tanks rely on the Skyguards to barely scare away enemy aircraft. That's teamwork and cooperation. Liberators and ESFs should have that same relationship.

And forget about buffing Liberator A2G damage... just think about the poor Skyguard who takes at the very least a third of a minute to destroy a Liberator! The day when Skyguards can kills Liberators as fast as Liberators kill Skyguards is when Liberators can even joke about getting a DPS buff.

let's see your dalton montage.

I can explain why he is correct very simply.

Air vehicle kills do not represent the effectiveness of any given anti air platform.
Why you would ask? Because ground based AA is not designed to kill,it is designed to deter.

When you need to protect an area from enemy air which do you pull?
A)Dalton liberator
B)Skyguard lightning

A)You pull a dalton liberator and become a huge target while trying to do some 360 leet tacticool dalton shots on ESF pilots bad enough to let you kill them.

OR

You can pull the inconspicuous lightning tank and force several enemy air units to vacate the area.

See how that works?One may get a few more kills while pretending to contribute more while the other keeps several locked in the limbo of running away and repairing.

And this doesn't sound self entitled to you? You are literally describing tanks role as destroying the ground infantry -- and are entirely OK with farming ground infantry easily. Then when YOU are put in that situation -- it's bad...

Hit scan? You must really NOT understand Libs at ALL. You die to them so you assume that they are OP. Classic. They have a travel time. The higher up and safer the lib is, the longer the travel time. More than half the people that play this game can't land a hit on a moving target with a Dalton. I get complaints from gunners ALL THE TIME: "I can't hit them, you need to fly lower than 250 meters..." "I got a hit marker, but man I had to lead the target LITERALLY A FOOT on my TV screen. " "You are moving, I can't hit them when you are moving." There is NOTHING hit scan about libs. We sacrifice mobility and safety (movement and altitude) for accuracy.

That IS the relationship we have. A solo lib is only going to kill if the ground vehicles are a.) parked and b.) not looking up with no situational awareness and c.)have no AA available. (Its effing easy..you don't even NEED a skyguard -- two guys switch to Burster max at one of the 6 sundies you guys have parked outside of that base you are attacking...lib problem solved -or two walkers on any one sundie because rep sundies slow down TTK with the dalton a bit) and d.)there are no ESFs.

Libs in large battles are much less effective solo than any other vehicle except in the most herp derp of zerg defenses. They require ESFs to protect against ESFS, Galaxies, and Other libs, and ground vehicles to protect against the enemy pulling more than 1 burster max or skyguard plus walker sundies. We require as much support as Sundies.

I'll tell ya what Bill, you get credit for talking a bit more about context.

Yes, that is *your* one trick pony lesson. Apparently the only lesson you are willing to take away from any discussion of Lib and Vanguard as threats to ESFs.

I agree that a single Lib is (in most cases) a bigger threat than a single Vanguard. But that was never something I was arguing against. I listed a Vanguard as having better AA than it stated role, as one of multiple examples of things that are stated incorrectly. This was in echo of Dalton being stated incorrectly. I was agreeing with you that Dalton was stretching its stated role, just indicating that this is pretty typical in PS2. Because SOE/DBG doesn't really balance much or well.

Libs and Gals are both bad targets for a single ESF. It's even unclear how ESFs will do vs. Valks when the dust settles on any rebalancing for them (seems to be in the air that maybe Valks aren't done with balancing).

ESFs seem good vs. ESFs and Valks, and pretty good vs. Harassers. With Loadout options to be good vs. Non-Skygaurd Lightnings/MBTs, Inafantry, and/or ESFs. I have no idea what SOE/DBG wants, but this seems to be where ESFs are at.

I'm not sure the Lib could function in such a capacity:
1) the notion that ESFs can provide escort is laughable. 1 Lockon, and the ESF has to run away.
2) If you take away Libs bite, it will likely start to have trouble issues like the Valk; you could massively buff its Health like Gals, but that would make it even worse for Ground trying to deal with it