[Suggestion] Liberator: -50% Damage vs. Air Armor Types

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Insignus, Jan 30, 2017.

  1. Insignus

    This change would apply a 50% damage reduction for liberator belly cannons (Non-shredder) against air vehicles.

    Liberator main guns and tail guns would not be affected.

    The principal change would be a reduction in the effectiveness of Liberator belly cannons in A2A.

    • Up x 2
  2. adamts01

    As long as the tail gun gets re-worked. It's really sad that the anti-armor canon is the premier AA gun and the AA tail gun is laughed at by even moderately skilled ESF pilots. Nerf the belly guns against air, buff the hell out of the tail gun, but maybe limit it's side to side range of motion so that it can't be easily used offensively against air, only then the Lib is running away.
    • Up x 4
  3. zeroxpain

    Yeah lib is far too good at A2A with the belly gun thats pretty much ment for ground targets i shoud do minor dmg to ESF
  4. ColonelChingles

    Just make it so the Liberator can't go belly up, and significantly reduce the ability of the Liberator to climb. Maybe also reduce the flight ceiling of the Liberator such that it can't get as high as an ESF.

    Given the design and engine layout of the Liberator, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the Liberator can flip over without propelling itself rapidly into the ground.

    These changes will make the Liberator highly vulnerable to attack from the top, where ESFs would be out of range from the belly cannon or tailgun. In turn, this means a Liberator would need to travel with an ESF escort for protection, instead of swatting ESFs out of the sky.

    Liberator Daltons already had a fairly easy time killing ESFs...

    Air Kills Per Hour
    Dalton- 14.6
    Skyguard- 5.7

    In other words, Liberator Daltons are over 250% more effective at killing aircraft than the dedicated AA weapon in the game. That simply can't be right.
    • Up x 5
  5. Gundem

    Once again, your statistics are misleading and do not tell the full story.

    The discrepancy between Skyguard and Dalton kills can easily be explained by the difference between the relationship of the ESF and the Lightning and the Liberator.

    A lone Skyguard poses a significant threat to an ESF at close range; ergo most ground-pounding ESF's and all Skyknights who don't even attack ground leave them alone. This means that once again, the Skyguard is likely to deter an ESF rather then kill it outright.

    Liberators on the other hand are actively attacked by ESF's, forcing the engagement to come to one of two conclusions; the ESF destroys the Liberator or vise versa. This is exacerbated by the fact that the ESF's margin for error is rather slight, where an ESF can make multiple unsuccessful passes against a Skyguard, one hit from the Dalton and you are grounded, and thus your statistic is further inflated.

    Now, this isn't to say that the Dalton is more effective then the Skyguard, since if you bothered to look at the whole picture instead of framing whatever fits your narrative best you'd notice that ESF noseguns top the list of Liberator deaths.

    TL;DR, it's a simple matter of ESF's put themselves in danger of being killed by a Liberator more often then they put themselves in danger of being killed by a Skyguard, and the difference between the way the platforms interact. This speaks more towards the problem of the Skyguard being a low-skill deterrent rather then a high-skill killer like the Dalton. Saying that the Dalton is more effective then the Skyguard is simply dishonest, as a Liberator with a Skyguard bellygun would be far more effective against ESF's then a Dalton could even imagine.
    • Up x 2
  6. Hajakizol

    So basically then, the skyguard is bad because its platform is bad (the lightening). And the Dalton is good because its on a good platform even tho the Dalton is bad? If thats the case should the Dalton platform be nerfed so its is not an Op platform combined with a dalton?
  7. Weeblz

    Please stop making threads like this, the reason this game is suffering so badly for vehicle based players of all types is the endless cries of nerf this, nerf that... Time for a reality check, if you get hit by a Dalton you are really, really bad. If you don't realize that then you must fall into one of 2 categories:

    1. You need to spend some time on the Dalton to figure out just how difficult it is to hit all but the most ******** of ESFs. (You know, the oblivious ground farmers hanging there long enough for the lib pilot to sit right on top of them or the fly straight at the belly crew cos duh lib is over der)


    2. You have forgotten how difficult it was when you first started on the Dalton

    I am a terribad ESF pilot who thanks my lucky stars when I see a dalton lib coming since I can easily dodge the belly gun and stay at range while the lib itself is big enough for my ****** aim. I would go as far as to say that the overwhelming majority of my kills in the air are libs... They aren't even fast enough to get away and their tail mounted tickle cannon is a joke.
  8. ColonelChingles

    Hardly. In fact, statistics, unlike limited personal anecdotes from particular individuals, do tell the full story. It's those little "snippets" thrown around that are biased and misleading.

    Is there a difference between the Liberator and the Lightning? Sure.

    The Liberator gets a OHK weapon against ESFs, with a TTK of effectively 0. The Skyguard has a TTK of 4 seconds, which is infinitely longer than a Liberator's TTK.

    The Liberator can chase down or manuever to ESFs. A Liberator can get up to 225km/h, which surpasses the top cruise speed of a stock ESF. A Skyguard can only go a fraction of that speed, plus is slowed down by terrain.

    But any way you cut it, the Dalton is just too effective at killing aircraft, while the Skyguard is far too ineffective at the task. The numbers simply do not lie.
    • Up x 2
  9. Wargamer

    Sounds like you are describing the liberator for planetside 1, which made sense. In planetside 2 the liberator is basically a skytank, and all the important stuff at most bases are completely exposed to their fire.

    Being an effective liberator pilot in PS1 wasn't easy, slow falling bombs that weren't always easy to drop on targets.
  10. adamts01

    Skyguards don't kill, they deter, so that stat is absolutely meaningless. Gundem pretty much nailed it. Planetside 2 AA is crap and shouldn't be used as a starting point for balance, like they did with Hornet nerfs and the removal of thermals. They should let air be deadly and re-work AA to be equally skillful and deadly.

    OP obviously doesn't fly much if he's calling for Liberator nerfs, but he is right about the Dalton. You've actually hit on why that is. Weapons should be based on skilled vs skilled scenarios, and you've admitted that the Dalton only works against bad players, and that's the best AA weapon the Lib has. Against good ESF, it's half skill and half luck if the Dalton will get a kill, and that's just not right. Nerf the Dalton so that people stop playing the lottery with it, and buff the tail gun like I mentioned above. It would put the Lib in to a more balanced place and let it fill it's intended role without being a free snack for skilled ESF. If the tail gun actually became a reliable ESF killer when the Lib was being chased off, this could actually be a buff to the Lib.
  11. ColonelChingles

    You forget that if you kill something, you've done a pretty good job of deterring it. A Skyguard that is unable to kill aircraft hasn't really solved the problem of aircraft... just made it someone else's problem. A Liberator that Daltons an aircraft has effectively removed the threat. Even if the ESF pilot repulls, they are just as likely to avoid the area with the Liberator as they are to avoid the area with the Skyguard.

    A Skyguard should be getting more kills... it's just that simple.
    • Up x 1
  12. zeroxpain

    dalton shoud only be nerfed vs esf like half dmg the shot shoud basically pass though an esf since the armor is thin while contact with targets or ground for them to explode, im a fairly good pilot but i fly a trashcan the size of a tank but with paper thin armor ESF ar much bigger then you think, and you dont need to boost any guns on the lib its not ment to fly aronde alone you use it in space where you have air control so with an escort of ESF
  13. zeroxpain

    You gotta understand that a ESF cost 350 nanites and cant solo anything that cost anything in that price range inf cost zero nanites to spawn and sky guards cost about the same to spawn, So your shooting at a ESF it takes dmg has to go somwhere safeish to repair that takes time if you kill a infrentry he be able to spawn right away and somtimes close to the battle so the delay is probly the same but the cost isnt
  14. TrolKabu

    Skyguard = 0 nanite ??? Missed something ?
  15. zeroxpain

    ups was thinking about the base AA guns
  16. adamts01

    I absolutely agree, but as it's implemented in the game you can't compare kill stats from a wounding weapon with a high hit chance against those of a killing weapon that relies heavily on chance to hit.
  17. stalkish

    Plus the bombs appeared on the radar making them easy to dodge.

    When i flew libs(or the vulture) in ps1 i flew by the mini map, lining your arrow up with courtyard walls wasnt too difficult, but you needed a good bomber who knew how to aim the bombs or youd see them fly over your target. Getting a bomber who could land all 10 tank busters on a walking BFR from high alt was a rarity. Also as a small bonus, if you flew over a deployed AMS with a lib, when directly over it the AMS appeared on radar. Dont think many knew this. Plus from roof height the AMS bubble was visible aswel (bug)

    Bombers could also use the minimap to aim, zoom it all the way out(i think it was out) and push your mouse all the way forward. When you see your target enter the minimap press fire, the bombs will carry to your target even tho your not looking at it. You could get tank bombs right into the doors doing this, we used to kill people inside the AMP station lobby. You needed a certain height to achieve the best accuracy doing this, cant remember it now tho.

    Man.....now you've made me miss the PS1 liberator, i loved that thing. :(
    • Up x 1
  18. Kcalehc

    You mean 150% more effective, or 250% as effective... ;)
    However in reality its not that at all, its that the Skyguard is only ~40% as effective as the Dalton - and thus should be buffed.
    (Though to be fair as someone who's used the Skyguard a fair amount, my Air KPH is low with it, as mostly you spend a lot of time not killing anything; which skews the numbers a fair bit.)

    But only if you include all relevant statistics - you've only painted a small part of the picture, the part you want to present (which may be true, but such a small set does not prove that). It's like drawing two points on a graph then connecting them and saying that this is a straight line correlation - yeah it could be, but not necessarily)


    No but your interpretation can be poor and its easy to cherry pick numbers to show only one side of an argument.

    That all being said, I agree with your general view that the Skyguard needs to be better.

    (As an aside, I worked with the MOD Statistical Service for a couple years; those guys could really have some in-depth arguments about stats.)
  19. Insignus

    I've suggested adding free fall bombs to the Valkyrie before. Didn't get much traction.
  20. Shocky

    how about the lib turned into the bomber it was meant to be not a **** EVERYTHING PLATFORM got air problems tank buster, ground vehicles tank buster, infantry tank buster, have more then one of these problems just till up and let your Dalton or Zepher gunner kill it the only thing you have to fear is another lib.
    • Up x 1