Last try: An overview of my (unbiased as much as possible) views on AA FLAK balance

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by TheRealMetalstorm, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. TheRealMetalstorm

    You are forgetting that the skyguard is getting an extreme buff to long range AA capacity.
  2. TheRealMetalstorm

    Not really saying AA maxes are OP.
    Just saying that their nature limits the role of air in base capping and drastically limits the possible tactical moves that can be undertaken. You -can- eliminate an AA nest that's out in the open, and that's a tactical move, but when said AA nest is hiding inside buildings that you're trying to attack, it more or less requires you to cap the base itself before you can actually kill the AA MAXes. Why? Read Post.
  3. Phazaar

    Would love to see the OP stream some of these ops; they sound really interesting.

    Not sure I feel the need to buff the Skyguard's clip AND its projectile velocity. It's either sustained fire and a lot of leading (tradional approach to flak) or it's less leading but more reloading. There has to be a way to not get hit eternally, is what I'm getting at. I love my Skyguard as it is tbh; I just totally agree that it needs to be switched with the MAX in terms of effective range.

    Other than that, all great points and a good read.
  4. TheRealMetalstorm

    You're tunnelled into the idea that the only AA option are burster maxes. Please read the entirety of my post.
    To summarize: Burster MAX units should be effective as point defenses, and not deny the entire area from enemy air. Regional AA should be more vulnerable to tactical decisions but in exchange much more deadly against air units, ala upgraded skyguard. That is all.
  5. TheRealMetalstorm

    I would love for some actual serious threat to my A2G work, giving my friends on the ground a mission to do - take out AA before I can get in. IMO deadly counters force people to cooperate just because it's deadly. There is no value to "life" in this game, just a general wish to avoid the inconvenience of death. This makes people risk takers. Hence, in game deterrents need to be the real life equivalent of "you're totally fk'd" in terms of effectiveness. The beefed skyguard would be insanely OP, but about as OP as an esf (like mine) podding the rear of an uncovered tank.

    Also gives me an excuse to reply those damn texts. You can't text while flying LOL.

    anyway, as for streaming, no go - I live in s.e. asia and the uplink speed to US/CANADA servers like isn't the best.

    Thank you for your contribution to this thread though.

    I am thoroughly enjoying the mature discussion here.
  6. AceMF

    Burster TTK on maximum rank composite armor is too high , compound that with additional bursters and the situation approaches ridiculousness.

    Bursters should have to max out flak armor to stand face to face with an esf
  7. Travesty

    I would agree with you about the Burster being too effective at long range. The trouble is that if their long range is nerfed they will be food for Libs. Once a Lib gets within medium range, the Burster is toast against a decent Lib crew.

    Perhaps nerf their long range effectiveness, but buff damage against Libs?
  8. Hovis

    The Skyguard is different to the burster though. You don't want one to complement the other, they are either/or weapons. In defence, you want the Burster. In attack you roll a Skyguard.

    You're comparing an apple with an orange just because they both happen to be chucked at an ESF.
  9. NoctD

    As much as AA is today totally locking down air, I'd have to say you got it pretty spot on. Not sure about the Skyguard buff, but the GD-40F looks like it needs a buff.

    You nailed it right on though... the Burster MAX is THE problem with AA. It was fine back in the day when the other forms of AA were bad and weak, and A2G weapons were a lot more powerful. These days - the Burster MAX is just destroying the air game totally, making air pretty much a non factor.

    Look at MAX scores, these guys that just sit and fire way in a bio-lab at infantry or with dual Bursters at anything that flies, are just way too powerful and easy mode. You don't need much skill to play the MAX, its just point and shoot away endlessly. A MAX can be raised endlessly and repaired too.

    If the Devs care about balance, then reduce the Burster MAX effectiveness... its not so much their TTK but their effective range and AOE. If they keep the AOE and current damage, the radius of their flak AOE needs to be reduced as well as something else like projectile speed to reduce their effectiveness at range.

    The Walker and Skyguard actually requires some skill to use. The Burster MAX is just easy mode and totally senseless!
  10. NoctD

    Flares. They're plenty annoying, but you can actually counter them.

    Burster MAX is just plain stupid and broken.
  11. Blarg20011

    Can you explain why?
  12. TheRealMetalstorm

    I know what you're trying to say, don't worry. I see your point. It's easier to think of the lightning as a convoy protector, and the burster as the thing you pull during a base defense.

    However, I believe that my idea is superior to the current state of the game. Why?

    Splitting the burster/skyguard pair, we allow for the following:

    • Important assets like sunderers can have point AA defense (defense of an offensive sunderer as well) - a couple of burster MAXes will effectively stop hoverspam and easy strafes by ESFs on the sunderer. However, it won't deny the entire territory from enemy aircraft. It serves its role as a powerful point defense for local airspace control.
    • Skyguards will be the new powerhouses of AA work. Their upgrades to ranged anti-aircraft fire allows for serious denial of enemy air within a large radius. However, they are vulnerable to tactical countermeasures. They allow for AA to be effectively neutralised if the opposing forces deem it necessary.
    Right now,
    Burster MAX units have only one viable coutner - overwhelming infantry. However, if infantry can get into the base and actually kill the MAX suits, the base has probably already fallen. This effectively negates nearly all possibility of CAS playing a role in the cap.
    Skyguards are way too weak to be an effective, viable alternative to the Burster. It can't hide, and doesn't hit as hard in practice.
  13. Pella

    Again, Your attempt on this argument has failed. PS2 balance is so unforgiving. More Flak in the skys now would put us back to just after the burster buff at launch. When flying was impossible.

    AA is fine. And AA in numbers OP.

    Tbh i dont think the OP even knows what he is actually arguing about here.
  14. Hovis

    The fix, as I pointed out over in the suggestions board, is a weapon that doesn't require an ESF to fly directly toward the target to use. ESF pilots are forced into a spectacularly dangerous attack strategy because of how their weapons are set up, everything firing off the centreline of the plane has not been a viable ground attack strategy against a dangerous target, ever, because your speed won't help you when you are flying right into the enemy gun sight.

    What ESFs need are bombs. Simple, drop off the bottom of the aircraft when you push a button, bombs. You can overfly a hornets nest of flak, get chewed up, but you'll be able to deliver a payload and do some damage a lot more safely than you can now.
  15. Prodigal

    Yup I agree and would further add that I've never seen an AA MAX getting a k/d ratio anywhere close to 41, not to speak of the XP.

    So the question about AA MAX / ESF balance should be pretty clear.
  16. Pella

    And here is a picture to sum up what im on about. Notice that there is no Aicraft.

  17. Curved

    No talk about the G40-F, which is the best anti-air in the game? MBT + G40-F = 3x as fast as a MAX, 80-90% the DPS of a burster against air, same range, takes more than double the rocket pod hits, and is able to fight all ground threats effectively? Just have to know how to press F2
  18. Lividicus!


    I honestly could not agree with you more!

    The BEST pilots in this game (top 15%) state up and down that "killing max's is easy". As a pilot myself, I actually find it extremely difficult to take down max units that are hiding behind a rock, tree, building, turret, tank, etc. They're impossible to see from that air, and with the stupid 1500 meter range that they seem to have, there is no plausible way that a ESF would down a max in an effective way.

    I also would like to remind you all, Not All of us pilots have Rocket Pods. (Ive been pouring every cert I earn into my mosquito and I'm not going to see those pods for at least another month!) Even with that, it is MUCH easier to shoot down a Reaver or Skythe that it is to down a max unit. That's from experience.

    My friend just joined the game two days ago, while I encourage his play and love seeing new players hit the scene, he picked up a max suit and Became A BOSS! Let me explain....

    He, on his second day, had a 3.0 K/D ratio and used absolutely nothing BUT a max suit during the gameplay. If no one else sees a problem with a completely NEW player jumping on and blowing up ESF after ESF, you likely won't understand this thread anyways and should thus just leave. However, if you DO understand where I am coming from, SPEAK UP! That's the only way things change! And quite honestly, I think Max suits are PERFECTLY balanced in terms of VS infantry or tanks. But they are VASTLY more effective against ESF's. When a fresh player hits this game, jumps a max suit, and downs level 50 pilots, something needs change!

    Thanks for reading, I really am not trying to sound "whiney" or like a "troll". I WANT this game to succeed! And that includes ensuring balance among classes.
  19. Czuuk

    Flak is fine. Remember teh rules from WoW? Don't stand in fire?
  20. TheRealMetalstorm

    no, that would be fk'd up and extremely frustrating. I enjoy the danger. I relish in the "spectacularly dangerous attack strategy" these planes put me in. And I come out alive. Often above 90% hull integrity. Makes you feel like a bauss, because you actually did something nobody thinks you can do.

    ^ Found someone who doesn't like AA.
    Hey baby I'm just sayin'... maybe... we think of the people we shoot at?

    Ok, I'll be nice and patient... but Pella, if you will open your mind as I have to the other people in this thread...

    Firstly, flying was difficult when AA was crazily powerful. However, I didn't have an issue. You don't really give a **** about how powerful the AA is if it doesn't even hit you. I rarely get hit. Low approaches, 320kph full AB runs at 3m above the ground following roads or going under trees keeps you safe. No burster max really pays much attention to the ground. I regularly kill tanks in crazily hot areas, all thanks to burster maxes only looking at blue.

    That is totally incorrect. Movements to your aircraft negates the incoming damage at long ranges.. Being in the effective kill zone of a burster max, You can kiss your *** good bye.
    correct. but that effective range is too long. that range needs to be reduced, simply because they should not be the dominant AA in the defense of the sky.
    Your basing these assumptions on a solo burster max. When in reality there is always more. 2/3 Maxes can quite simply lock down the surrounding air space no problem at all.
    And yes EXACTLY that. That's exactly what I said. What's wrong about that? However it's not really a lock-down, only failures of G2A pilots get shot down by AA if they plan ahead and have information over VOIP about AA presence and recommended approaches.
    Air is the counter to Air, And Burster's are a deterrent. When you have a group of Bursters as i have said above that air space is locked down.
    Yes, that is correct! However, you are missing the point entirely.

    buffing AA is not the point, Pella.

    It's nerfing long-range bursters, and forcing forces who wish to use long-ranged AA to use Skyguards for that. Why?
    Because skyguards can be killed without having to effectively conquer the base first.

    If you can get enough infantry in to kill the Burster MAX units, then you have already won the base.

    Pella, I assume you aren't a native english speaker, since you seem to be missing the entire point of the original post...
    I forgive you based on that, but I hope you understand what I mean now.

    Nerf bursters at long range, Buff skyguard at long range.