K/D All servers all factions.(repost from reddit).

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by MurderBunneh, Nov 27, 2013.

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  1. axiom537

    This has been an issue for a long while now. First documented by veteran players, who felt the NC where off compared to the other factions but had little to no proof other then personal observations. Then we had the WDS, which immediately showed this faction disparity observed by veteran NC players and now this metric once is introduced which again supports the observations NC veterans have been discussing for months.

    None of us think the NC are severely gimped, but there are some minor tweaks that would bring us on par with the other factions.

    #1. An AI Max Weapon, that is effective beyond 10m, something that is not a shot gun.

    #2. An AI Secondary weapon to replace the horrible Enforcer C85 modified, on both the harasser and vanguard, again anything other then a shotgun.

    #3. An AV ESR launcher, that had a range beyond 300m or something with enough speed to actually catch a retreating vehicle.
    - Both the TR and VS have an ESR that has a range up to and beyond 500m & both are very capable at hitting fast moving vehicles, ie the harasser, or ESF's. The NC really do not have any good Infantry counters the the Harasser, which can farm NC infantry with little risk.

    I am sure there are other minor tweaks here and there, but these three changes would make a drastic difference, IMO.
    • Up x 4
  2. CDN_Wolvie

    When its an average, its already included in the stats. Server > Faction KDR is an average of all the worst players, the mediocre players, the veteran players, the smokin hot players, and probably even the aim assisted hackers. Add together and divide by the number of KDRs that were added together.

    Somehow, someway, I want to break through the mental blocks that are stunting that comprehension.

    Because people keep bringing up just individual KDRs like they haven't been accounted for when they have. And all those KDRs were already forged in the heat of every possible scenario that gains one a kill or death.

    Its a great indicator of imbalance even if it doesn't tell you what is causing the imbalance - probably because an imbalance that big is caused by a multitude of specific categorical issues ranging from small to big that add up over time.
    • Up x 6
  3. Aegie

    FYI, if the data is coming from all players then there is zero need to randomly select a subsample because you have included the entire population.
    • Up x 6
  4. Aegie

    Convergent evidence is convergent.
    • Up x 3
  5. Odin

    I guess according to the vs/tr anti nc campaign the devs are doing it wrong too.
    Because they used max stats and posted them when über nerfing the scatmax and also used the same kdr when talking about buffs to the tr max.
    Funny how stats are relevant when u want them to be but in this case they are "useless" hahahha
    Let me tell you again if you people are not paying attention. Nc was last on every server for wds, nc is last on every server in kdr, nc is last in every single kpm, kph etc in every class and vehicle. And dead last in alerts won.
    One of them could be explained away. Last every time without a single 2nd place shows u how screwed up the overall balance is.
    But keep telling yourself nc are fine, it's what the devs have been doing so it's no surprise.
    Why u people wouldn't want a more fair game makes no sense, other than "nc is fine I am just awesome with my leet Zoe kills and do not want to admit otherwise"
    • Up x 4
  6. Odin

    This is what will kill a game with 3 sides eventually complete stagnation on the part of the development team with regards to balancing empires.
    • Up x 1
  7. Aegie

    Yeah, like a lot of people have been saying all along- it is not that there is one peice of evidence but rather there is convergent evidence from many angles and that is what becomes so difficult to explain away.
    • Up x 4
  8. Selerox

    I'd say it was a pretty good explanation actually.

    Cobalt VS respect Cobalt TR. We may not like them, but we respect them.

    We don't respect Cobalt NC.
  9. that_darn_lurker

    Something is definitely wrong with NC; some of which SOE may be able to control and some of which they may not. IMHO, it boils down to two things:

    1) Gauss Saw as the default HA weapon. Its harder to use than TR and VS starting equivalents. The EM6 would have probably been a better starting weapon, and would have still effectively conveyed NC's faction trait of hard hitting weapons. Can you imagine if NC LAs and Engies started with the AC-X11, or Medics started with the Reaper DMR?

    2) NC seems to attract more new players. Since the metagame is all about putting yourself into a situation to farm your opponent (because alerts pffft! unless it leads to farm then see my original point), there's no better opponent than a hapless noob.
  10. Yuukikun


    Your post: Lol my NC toon its 4.36, my VS chick couldnt get past like 2.6....my TR is only 4.4 cuz he rolls max suits and trolls people. Remove his MAX kills and he would have prolly 4.2 something

    Who are you referring to with ''he'' and ''his''?
  11. TheRaptorFence101

    Okay, let me respond to this fairly.

    I'm interested in these statistics being used and have pulled it for a project in one of my stats classes. I threw the numbers from DasAnfall together into a 2-Sample T Test. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, don't worry, just skip it.

    Bunneh's statement is that all the k/d's of the three factions are biased against the NC. The problem I found with this information is that to actually see if it is statistically significant enough to even make this claim would require the 286,000+ players of PS2's K/D to be conglomerated into one big happy pile rather than broken into the server populations as they are now. This would require a LOT of time to put together into a hypothesis test, including calculating the standard deviation, but even if it was done it wouldn't be a good representation of the Planetside population.

    See, the stats given on average K/D are per server, but that doesn't mean that the average K/D of the entire PS2 population can be created by averaging the server's average K/D together. This would only give the average of the SERVER'S, not the PLAYERS. An example of how this looks mathematically: if I took the standard deviation of all the players population (286,0000+) and the standard deviation of all the server population (8 servers) I will end up with some pretty different standard deviations that will affect whether this is a statistically significant hypothesis Bunneh is making.

    So a better hypothesis to make would be to say that "The average K/D of the NC for the population of the Planetside 2 servers is less than the average K/D of the TR or VS for the population of the Planetside 2 servers." This gets rid of a couple things:

    1.) We can work this out with some very simple math statements rather than finding the standard deviation for all 286,000+ players *shudder*.

    2.) It fits better with the model we are trying to work with. A server such as Connery may have a huge population of TR with a lower BR but higher K/D than the smaller population of NC (just randomly saying these, not sure if it's true since I haven't crunched the numbers yet. That'll be below). But Waterson may have differing numbers; basically each server will give a radically different experience based on who chose that server. This can also explain why people have differing opinions on how easy/average/difficult it is to play for or against NC. By calculating per server this hopefully cuts out this experience as opposed to finding the overall statistical analysis of K/D averages for the entire PS2 population, which would give skewed data.

    So, let's put in the stats. I took stats from 12/2/2013 of all servers's K/D and calculated standard deviation. I found that the TR averaged .921 K/D with a standard dev. of .111 across servers, VS averaged .95 K/D with std dev. of .127 across servers, and NC averaged .864 K/D with std dev of .059 across servers. With a population of 8 servers, putting this into a 2-Sample T Test gave me a p-value of .11 for TR K/D > NC K/D and .057 for VS K/D > NC K/D. These are not statistically significant p-values if we are going from an alpha-level of .05%. Therefore, "There is not enough evidence to suggest that the average K/D of the NC for the population of the Planetside 2 servers is less than the average K/D of the TR or VS for the population of the Planetside 2 servers."

    First, let me say what this does NOT mean. This does not say that the average K/D of all NC players is less than the average K/D of all TR or VS players. It is comparing it to all the servers rather than all the players, which I believe gives better evidence for whether there is balanced play, since every server will be radically different in terms of stats. The p-values are also quite close to the alpha level, so I would NOT be surprised if the stats per month dip into a statistically significant value.

    HOWEVER, THIS DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING FOR OR AGAINST THE BALANCE OF NC/TR/VS,

    In fact, K/D ratios will prove almost nothing for or against an NC/TR/VS balance. It's a drop in the bucket when you start looking through BR ranks, outfit stats, ivi K/Ds, SPM, and many other statistics. And even if it can be proven that there is a statistically significant value for the p-value that would suggest that the NC do have a lower K/D across servers it does NOT suggest that it come from balance. It could be as simple as who picks what faction when joining up to to as complicated as a BR ranking distribution that would suggest a larger proportion of higher BR in certain faction in certain servers.

    TL;DR : Stats are ****, please stop trying to use these as proof for or against the balance of NC/TR/VS because the K/D ratio across servers per faction isn't even a statistically significant value.
    • Up x 1
  12. Goretzu

    It doesn't stop people trying though. I must admit at this point I'm fairly impressed by the people that just keep rolling up to try and dismiss the next new thing that seems to suggest the NC needs a little bit of polish and buffing. :)
    • Up x 3
  13. Bape

    There a reason why you don't see any outfit for example DA or Future crew go on their NC and be tactical.

    Not gonna probably reply to you again seeing that you just made a NC player and have yet to use the phoenix/nc max/ ravens etc etc so until you get your NC to say about br 50 with phoenix etc then come back to me and then I will listen to you.
    • Up x 2
  14. Posse

    Because they chose to play VS when the game came out?


    >just made
    >created in September

    lol'd

    ad hominem at its finest, I see.

    I see small groups of NC MAXes destroying everything too, same as the other factions.

    So what? We do the same, the Fury is much better than the PPA.

    You can say all you want, but numbers don't lie, and in this case yes, they're relevant because as far as I know, the Phoenix worked exactly the same way against vehicles from launch, so it's a consistent number.

    My argument for the overall K/D being worthless is that there were a lot of balance changes, so that K/D reflects all the unbalances in favor of different factions up to this day, it doesn't reflect the currect unbalances, on the other hand, looking at Phoenix AV stats does reflect the current situation because it just wasn't changed (aside from removing the OHK against infantry which, obviously, doesn't affect VKPH)
  15. axiom537

    Sorry, but you are wrong. There is a difference in the K/D ratio across all servers per faction and it is measurable, even if it is a statistically small number, but that statistically small value becomes significant because across all populations the NC finished dead last every time, while the other two factions alternated between 1st and 2nd places. So, yes it would be a statistically insignificant value and meaningless if the three factions all traded positions, but that did not happen only two factions traded positions, while the third faction remained last in every population.

    So, the stats are not crap, only p-values are. As they further support and indicate a problem that has been previously highlighted during the WDS Series, which was preceded with reports from veteran player & outfit experiences.
    • Up x 4
  16. TheRaptorFence101


    1.) I never said they were not measurable or statistically small, simply that they were statistically insignificant and that there was not enough evidence to support the statement that the average K/D of the NC for the population of the Planetside 2 servers is less than the average K/D of the TR or VS for the population of the Planetside 2 servers. That is a very different statement than that the average K/D of the NC for the population of the Planetside 2 playerbase is less than the average K/D of the TR or VS for the population of the Planetside 2 playerbase. If you do not understand the nuances then you weren't made to reply to the post.

    2.) You obviously do not understand how to perform a 2-Sample T Test or you would understand that the math proves it to be statistically insignificant. So don't reply, or if you will then please reply with your own hypothesis testings (maybe with other statistics than that are given here) that might contradict mine, because then discussion can follow.

    3.) Do you even know what a p-value is? You know, no need. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_hypothesis_testing and this http://www.isixsigma.com/tools-templates/hypothesis-testing/making-sense-two-sample-t-test/ (but ignore the whole jab about figuring out whether they come from the same population; we're using it for a different reason, to see if it can be found as random occurrence).

    For all other people, IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HYPOTHESIS TESTING IS THEN DO NOT REPLY TO MY POST UNLESS YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS.
  17. Bape


    Like I said I will wait until you gain more experience with your NC. Let end the conversation here to be honest me or you don't have a say what get changed or not that up to SOE. You need to understand when someone comes to me saying the phoenix is fine compared to the lancer/striker it strikes me as odd.
    • Up x 1
  18. Posse



    lolwut? EXOC is a completely different outfit, what are you talking about. The alt outfits of DA are DLUV (VS waterson) and SBW (NC Mattherson)



    Lol,. because you used it that much... 5 and a half hours, lol (just to compare, I have 43 hours on the Lancer), and following your logic, you can't say it's worse than the lancer since you don't have a clue about it.



    Which affects all AV weapons.
  19. Bape

  20. Posse

    So you can know about the Lancer without touching it but I can't know about the Phoenix without touching it? haha, come back again when you have a better argument dude.



    The Lancer is better at its intended range? No sh.it sherlock!
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