Just how bad is the client side issue?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by DarkQuark, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. Towie

    You just don't get it do you ? You were stating that people aren't interested in cheating in PS2 - so I check how many are currently reading the PS2 section of a public hacking forum (as in - at that moment in time - i'm going to keep saying this until it sinks in, I acknowledge I could be in for the long haul) and you just take that number to be the absolute ie. nobody before - nobody after - it's 22 full stop - then extrapolate that to calculate the number of cheats in PS2. Asinine.

    Then you come out with this 19 hitbox cheaters nonesense - ask yourself this, if there were 'only' 19 people fiddling with the PAK files, do you really think that DBG would go to such lengths to obfuscate the PAK data, create a condensed pak image format then spawn a file checker thread to constantly keep tabs on it ? Do you have any conception of how much time/effort/money that took ? Sounds like an awful lot of effort for 'only 19'.

    Likewise Battleye - why bother introducing it (at a cost) and potentially annoy people (it did at the time) when, as you have constantly suggested, there isn't a cheating problem (or numbers so low so as to be insignificant) ? Clearly DBG thought it was needed and it made a massive difference to the gameplay at the time - sadly a long time ago now.


    I applaud their efforts, for such a small outfit they have worked hard on the problem but the relentless nature of cheating makes it difficult for even the largest game producers to stay ahead.
  2. JustGotSuspended


    Woah. Take a back now yo

    What I said:
    "Yeah it's a game with so little pop and motivation for cheating, few people really bother to cheat, regardless of exploiting or hacking."

    What you say I said:
    "You were stating that people aren't interested in cheating in PS2"

    I said few people are interested, not none. And as I calculated in the previous response, you validated the fact few people seem interested in cheating unless 22 players, or below 0.0005% is significant in your eyes.

    Now English isn't my native language, and although I've studied for 14 years in English, maybe I misunderstood what you said, or wrote in a way too confusing for you.

    You're gonna say DBG lied about how many people they banned? They only did the crackdowns cause a bunch of ignorant fools such as yourself which constitute the majority of the playerbase made so much drama they had to waste resources for...nothing. And you guys still aren't happy.

    They added battleeye so you guys would shut up. Literally the main reason they did it.

    I'm not sure how long you're been playing, or how much you even understand of what's going on. But you're heavily misinformed. At least now with your statements about why they did the bans and the battleeye, you confirm this.
  3. JustGotSuspended

    To all you people who think hacking is a huge problem in this game, and that there's subtle cheaters that aren't being banned...would it shock you if I told you Santa Claus isn't real? Instead of chasing superstitions, and coming up with absurd excuses for why you suck, try to challenge yourself to become better. Ask these "cheaters" for their youtube, their twitch. Learn from them. If you can't, check out cyriousgaming or camikaze for tutorials, though I'm sure there's more great youtubers out there. LerroyTwizzlers is a good one too, and a great guy to look for if you play on Emerald.

    The fact is, you're more likely to win the lottery, find a gf, AND start WW3 than you are to encounter a scripted cheater in this game. Even less likely to find a scripted cheater that's been playing on thhe same account for weeks/months/YEARS without getting banned. So each time you think you've found a hacker, report them, and remind yourself there's a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% chance you're a clown. And when you see that player one the next day/week, see it as a confirmation you indeed belong in a circus.

    So if you're attracting cheaters like crap attracts flies, you need to git gud:eek: , aim better:eek: , or just quit trying to play online games:oops: altogether. Just boot up a version of minecraft creative mode and suck your thumb as you construct a golden house.

    OR, you should seriously consider starting a youtube, and/or streaming your sessions because you are truly special, and I'm sure people would pay to see you get mowed down by cheaters each time you try to play.
  4. Towie

    Sooo - you are basically saying - that DBG have spent all of this time and effort and money to try and stop the cheating (and they have done WAY more than most people think) just to appease people like myself who suggest that cheating is a problem ?

    The mind literally boggles.


    It is also doing a disservice to all of the efforts and cash that DBG have poured into the problem.
  5. JustGotSuspended


    And that's why you're too childish to be speaking about this issue.

    You're thinking like a kid. The point of DBG, like any other game company is to make money. They wouldn't worry about cheaters if it didn't cost them money.

    You'll often notice bugs in non-multiplayer games rarely get addressed, or aren't a priority. That's because if people chose to cheat in a solo game, what difference does it make? They are cheating themselves, but no one cares, it's contained cheating. In multiplayer games, especially online, cheating can be quite damaging to a game. Even if there aren't that many cheaters, if people perceive there's lots of cheaters (and spread it), or cheaters go viral, that can be really harmful for a game. The SOE mods were banning cheaters, and were pretty efficient from what I can remember. They used to broadcast the bans, and I remember times where they banned the same guy making alts every 30 minutes. But that wasn't enough. Some people were "too good", they could've only been hacking, more specifically, modifying hitboxes. Quickly the issue was blown out of proportion, by people understanding even less about computers than our mothers, and the devs were forced to react.

    Why? Because with such bad publicity, they would lose money and players, if they didn't take the matter seriously. So tons of hours, months of effort to ban and attempt to take legal action against...a handful of cheaters. 19 The first wave, 6 a few months later. Granted, it SOE's fault for not properly securing their assets, but the amount of paranoia and false hackusations people started spreading was just unreasonable. The point is, they still had to take the ridiculous claims seriously, because of how many people were getting involved, and the potential damage it would cause for the game.

    Following that, they tried reassuring everyone, particularly by installing battleeye and a bunch of fixes. And you'll notice it's apparent through all the community interactions that the main goal of this was to appear like they were on top of things, to try convincing the community they were taking this ridiculously small issue seriously.

    Now there's some positives yes, the more secure the game the better. But really it goes to show how stupid people can be. Money spent doing these investigations, subscribing to batteleye, etc, could have definitely been better invested in the game, on things that would have had an actual noticeable impact. Because despite all the right actions the devs took, despite the miniscule amount of hackers that hop on from time to time for a few hours, despite all the attention to this unworthy cause; people are still unhappy. That's because these people aren't complaining about hackers. They just want a scapegoat for their mistakes; they just can't accept the fact there's better or advantaged players out there. And that's why instead of wasting time on morons they'll never be able to satisfy, I'd rather the devs invest resources into actually impactful stuff for the game.

    That's why I dislike when people try to blow this issue out of proportion, and get the devs to waste even more time and money chasing (or pretending to chase) wild fantasies; because people just can't accept the fact they suck, or can't/don't want to understand lag/skill/clientside/the game's mechanics, etc. Pouring more resources to act like the devs are combatting cheaters is just a waste, since there's not enough cheaters to make a difference, and the core issue isn't cheaters, it's just the mindset of certain players. So no matter how much the dev invest into fighting cheaters, these players will never be happy; someone will always be better than them, and they will rage and curse the devs for not banning that "cheater" that's ridiculing them.

    Luckily, DBG doesn't listen to the community like SOE did. Every time I get mad at them for that I remember the horde of imbeciles that demonstrated it was a bad idea, and I can't blame the devs for no longer taking anything we say seriously. Would be cool to see whatever ban/cheat statistics privacy laws allow, although I'm sure the numbers would disappoint a few people.

    https://www.reddit.com/user/PromptCriticalSOE/?sort=top

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/4eitls/hitbox_hack_fix_going_out_shortly/
  6. pnkdth


    Reading the response to the conspiracy theorists was hilarious. Looks like he had just about enough of the baseless innuendo and claims.

    Plus, when all else fails you can just claim there are subtle cheaters since nothing is quite as awesome as an irrefutable claim to cast doubt. Doubt just need a bit of water to take root. Like in politics you just gotta repeat the same lie over and over and it becomes "the truth." No one really used "fake news" before but now it is a popular way to discredit anything "you" don't like to hear.
    • Up x 1
  7. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Yes, Clientside can cause moments like that. One thing I would suggest is to try using Shadowplay or some similar program that can retroactively record gameplay to save back moments like these and rewatch what actually happens. More often than not you'll find that you weren't quite as accurate as you supposed and the other guy hit you with more bullets than you thought. That isn't a knock against you, personally, that's just the way the human brain works.

    As for the cheating discussion, there are cheaters in every game and by their nature they will always be a step ahead of moderation. That doesn't make them endemic. The term "Subtle hacker" is nothing more than a blank check for the ignorant to go witch hunting.
    • Up x 2
  8. JustGotSuspended

    ^^^^

    Yup, wholeheartedly agree with this. Even after the guy ridicules them by pointing out how silly they're being, they still gotta take out their woke "subtle hacker" card.

    It's at that point you can pretty much be certain these guys have 0 idea what they're talking about, and the best thing to do is just ignore their fantasies.
  9. Towie

    We've had this discussion before too haven't we TRSPY - I offered to share my credentials / network / qualifications on the subject of Cybersecurity (which just so happens to be my specialty) via Linkedin - https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...about-the-cheating.254397/page-3#post-3551815 but you declined didn't you.

    Still - people burying their heads in the sand has given me a terrific career so i'm not against it personally.


    As for PS2 - please keep putting your cash into the game, it's an amazing achievement and deserves to survive. Long live PS2 !
  10. JustGotSuspended


    I don't recommend sharing personal information on online forums, as a cybersecurity expert I'd assume you can guess why. Even if we did exchange linked-ins (which I don't have), you've proved many times you have little knowledge on the matter. If you did link a profile with relevant qualifications, I wouldn't believe its you, because you've made statements that blatantly go against factual mechanics. If I recall you even accused people of hacking because they had the name "AimBot". You couldn't even tell the difference between lag and hacking. Sure, I'm guessing you wouldn't be familiar with such things if you're setting up defenses for websites and non-game related stuff. But if that's the case, you can simply admit you know little to nothing about how games work.

    I also offered many times to go over some footage of your sessions, so we can discuss what you're seeing, why you're seeing it and get a clearer idea why you think hackers are a significant issue. Seems more reasonable and easier to do. Oh wait, you're the one who doesn't have a graphics card right?

    And you can pull back things I said, or simply take a trip to Connery and see me in game. I don't spend money. I won't spend money until wrel quits his nonsense. I can't spend money even if I wanted to, because it doesn't take payments from my region. I won't bother finding a workaround because I'm not motivated to spend money on a game wrel's trying to destroy with his storms and explosions and piss-poor revamps. Most I'll do is help new players out, and provide a target to shoot at. Topics for other threads.

    Happy new years!
  11. Towie

    AND Right on cue - Soltech kicks up a couple of headshotter accounts (same guy presumably) - Soltech really is the gift that keeps on giving.
    Circa 90% HSR using LMGs anyone ?

    Or maybe it's just the client side issue do you think ?

    [IMG]

    [IMG]
  12. JustGotSuspended

    Does this even need a reply?

    You start off by saying this *presumable* cheater is the same guy cheating on many accounts. So much for being a large-scale issue.

    Then you bring up the fact the dude has 90% hsr on the starting weapons. Keep in mind the accuracy, and the amount of kills this guy has.

    Yeah the guy's got amazing headshot stats...for like 50 kills. Then proceed to look at the accuracy. The guys trying his best to aim for the head, misses nearly all his shots. The few headshots he manages to land grant him a kill. Given the fact it's soltech, and most of em are running vpn, I wouldn't be surprised if lag played it's effect.

    That's not to say the dude isn't hacking, though I'd really love to know what/how. But I'd much rather you show us footage of people hacking in your sessions so we can see and analyze relevant sample date, then you pulling out random irrelevant player stats out of the blue.

    Check out my daimyo, I have 90% hsr, and I've got 12 times the number of kills that dude has on his carv.

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=trspy007&show=weapons
  13. Towie

    That's exactly what I want to prove - that I do have considerable knowledge on the matter - yet you don't even have it (I guess they don't allow school children onto it just yet, due to no business experience nor desire for contacts in the industry) - think of it as a version of Facebook for grown-ups in business. You will get there one day.

    You see that's the thing about Linkedin - when you write articles or create contacts, they don't just accept anyone. It's very hard to 'lie' - you can't pretend you are someone you are not, you cannot say you have experience or skills that you do not have. Why don't you give it a try and see how far you get ? It's not like a forum where you can pretend as much as you like - until you are found out.


    No I said presumably the same person due to the closely matching names - I didn't say presumable cheater. In fact this guy is MOST DEFINITELY a cheater - you can tell by the way his HSR stats get backed out over time on the fisu activity stats, it happened on both accounts. I forgive you for not knowing this as you didn't witness it happening - but it is a thing to look for.


    As for comparing Daimyo to a CARV or Orion - I know damn well you understand PS2 much better than to make such a ridiculous comparison.

    So comparing a Sniper (that very much requires headshots) to an LMG ? Asinine - again. You might need to look that up.
  14. JibbaJabba


    It's not that it's easy to manipulate client side data, it's that it's hard to accomplish this game without it. The issues are not here because dev doesn't care. The issues are here because they are hard to solve.

    The upside of clientside? Things feel "tight" as a player even if the network gets dicey.
    • Up x 1
  15. Towie

    So I guess I may as well answer this lie too. AND i'll cover lagging in a follow-on post.

    So this is what I actually said on the thread that I highly recommend people read - if only to make those long winter nights just fly by:
    "Well like I said - just scan the leaderboards and you'll see some fishy people. Not saying that they are cheating but they need further investigation for sure..."
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...about-the-cheating.254397/page-2#post-3551636

    This was from May 2020.

    After that I literally just scraped the top players off various servers - some of which TRSPY allegedly knows, so may be able to shed some light on what happened to them.

    Connery:

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=a1mb0tt
    TRSPY Said: 1) I know the dude, he's just an NSO alt, and I don't see anything wrong with his stats?
    I say - Oh this is the Aimbot character that is being referred to in the OP - well what happened to him ? He was a regular player until a few days after this post, then never played again ? Since last May ?

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/killboard/?name=llllllllllilllllllllllll
    TRSPY Said: 2) I know him too, that's one of his alts, and there's nothing that says he's cheating, his stats are pretty mediocre tbh 27% accuracy? lol he's legit for sure, check his kill-board.
    I say - played until November then hasn't played since ?

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=goninjagoninjagoninjagoninjago
    TRSPY Said: 3) Another alt, I've come across him too. He's good, but he's not the best, and his stats don't really scream "cheater".
    I say - hasn't played since a few days after the post, what happened to this guy ?


    Miller:

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=tuvija
    TRSPY Said: 4) No clue who he is, the stats don't really indicate he's a cheater, except for the fact he's really low and has very little playtime. Could be a cheater or (more likely) a meme alt.
    I say - well he has since been deleted so I guess that's somewhat conclusive

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=fataldatingfever
    TRSPY Said: 5) Probably an alt, nothing really indicates he's a cheater, except the low BR/time played.
    I say - Just like those on Miller - after a few more days, didn't play again

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=deadshooterx90
    TRSPY Said: 6) Like the other 2, it's most likely another alt, nothing screams hacker about him.
    I say - still playing - either hasn't been caught yet or is simply a very good player



    Cobalt:

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=enlargentheboxes
    TRSPY Said: 7) I've come across him, it's just one of his alts. Stats look totally legit too.
    I say - still playing - either hasn't been caught yet or is simply a very good player

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=vdus
    TRSPY Said: 8) Likely an alt.
    I say - hasn't played since last November

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=noskillnoaimbansheemain
    TRSPY Said: 9) That guy I know, he's legit, it's once again one of his alts where he (mainly) farms people with his banshee, as a protest against air.
    I say - is still playing, maybe he is trying to prove a point after all


    Now of those who haven't played in a while, we cannot tell whether they are just having a break or have been banned - unfortunately DBG will sometimes (rarely) delete a player but mostly just place a temporary or permanent ban. The net effect is that those polluted stats just flow into the overall quagmire and really muddy the waters when trying to spot 'good' vs 'ridiculous'.

    ANYWAY - just wanted to clear up the statement made by TRSPY - I have no idea who these people are nor what happened to them.

    More to come on hacking vs lagging - watch this space.
  16. JustGotSuspended



    What happened?

    Let's see....

    Escalation, and the campaign. Lost a bunch of vets cuz of that. And then in December, the banning/renaming spree due to "offensive names" cleaned up a few more vets. That's not to say the guy who got deleted wasn't cheating, but again, out of all these presumable cheaters, that leaves us only with....maybe 1?

    What, you think everyone read your thread and thought "oh no, I'm found out, time to never play again"! Or that the devs saw your post, immediately acted upon it...but only decided to ban one dude? lol, seems logical

    Most definitely a cheater? Didn't you argue a while back that it was impossible to know?

    I mean what cheat is he using? Because to get 90% hsr with 30% accuracy....he's using his carv like a sniper lol
    how fumy, he must've read this post too cuz he switched to using a sniper

    As for linked-in, if you stepped out America, you'd know most countries don't use/need it. A cool thing sure, maybe I'll do one one day when I get the time, I'll start a facebook too, for old time's sake. And yeah its definitely possible for you to link me Jeff Bezos's account, and pretend to be him. How am I gonna confirm that from a ps2 forum lol

    Just provide us some real data, or analyze some footage of your gameplay together, it's not that hard
  17. JibbaJabba


    Incoming youtube video from 2014.... proves everything today. :p
    • Up x 1
  18. Towie

    Apologies for the delay - work got in the way.

    Anyway wanted to discuss lagging.

    Lagging is either accidental (you didn't force it - your internet spiked, your housemate was downloading **** etc etc) or forced (the classic lag switch).

    In many ways it is the perfect method for cheating. Although the servers can see the lag spike there is no way it can determine what caused the lag - it can NEVER be 'detected' (you can build one yourself - split open an ethernet cable and find the right wire, they are color coded for your convenience, place a switch in-line on said cable and job done). Alternatively you could just unplug the cable from the PC or router - but that's a bit heavy handed. Or you could just buy one.

    So what happens when you are disconnected ? Well - you are invincible (nobodies shots get through to you - they can't as you're disconnected) but everyone and everything will continue in motion on your screen - in exactly the same direction / speed as they were when you disconnected.
    Somebody posted a video recently showing a lag switch in action where the characters 'froze' when the switch was activated - this DOES NOT HAPPEN in PS2. In fact it's a brilliant piece of coding - in PS2 with the potential for such large battles and such varied internet speeds, it has to calculate this compensation and keep everything moving just so it looks smooth(ish) on your screen. It also causes a lot of the WTF moments - as when the spike ends (or the switch is off), whatever you did while disconnected will suddenly be sent to the servers (TCP/IP is a wonderful thing) and everything updated in a flash. Whatever position you've moved to - you will instantly appear. More importantly, every shot you fired will instantly register on your opponent. If anyone complains - you can just blame client side.

    If you are the recipient - it will look like this (watch from about a minute - incidentally this video was shown on the mega-thread i've been referencing throughout from last year)



    Now there is a tell-tale way you can identify that people have been killed during a spike period - but only if they are stupid and/or greedy if doing so deliberately. If you kill multiple people with 0 seconds between with a 'normal' gun (ie. not explosive or a weapon with AOE or multiple bullets) - this can only be achieved during a spike.

    I used the video above because the person is still doing exactly the same thing:

    [IMG]

    5 people - all killed with headshots - at exactly the same moment in time. Looks fishy to you ? It should...

    Not sure how lenient PS2 is these days before it will force a disconnect - in the past it used to be about 3 minutes but I doubt they still have such a ridiculously long allowable period. This method was used to fly under the map too and as I don't see that anymore, i'm guessing it is less.
    • Up x 1
  19. JibbaJabba

    Good post. Couple nuances to mention:

    You can get those spikes of activity in a kill log if the API is running like **** that day. I've had a whole sessions kills attributed to me all at the same time... the next day. Recursion goes into fits trying to spew it all out when you login.

    Not saying ignore it, but definitely roll it in with other observations.

    Look earlier in the kill feed for sure. If you see a rapid killing of repeated names, blame it on the medic who keeps tossing a rez grenade at the feet of some killer that just cleared a room.

    There's not a completely free lunch with a network disconnect. Timestamps count. You might, in your disconnected state, go kill 100 enemies. You'll be frozen or stuck running in the last known direction on others screens. If they kill you during that timeframe then all kills you logged after that won't actually happen.
    • Up x 2
  20. DarkStarAnubis

    Considering that the TSAR-42 has a 1.1 sec chamber time the kills are fishy enough...

    I have been killed once by RejvenTR inside a Biolab: I was playing LA and I was insta-gibbed - the kill cam (sometimes it is good to have it) showed RejvenTR outside the Biolab (on the outer border). Enough said.

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