Jump Jets as an Alternative to ZOE

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Quiiliitiila, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. Quiiliitiila

    So, it's safe to say most people do not agree with ZOE in it's current form. However, it's also safe to say most "fixes" that the devs will come up with for it will make the ability useless.

    I'm of the opinion that we scrap ZOE altogether and instead give the VS MAX jump-jets like their PS1 counterparts. Now, the argument that the devs gave us was that giving the VS MAX jump-jets "was way to OP", something I find really hard to believe.

    The other argument against it was that VS MAX units would then replace VS Light Assault troops. A silly argument. At 350 resources a pop with CQC weapons and very slow speed, I think we'll continue to see VS LAs up there as well. A further argument along the same lines states that LAs for other empires will become outclassed on roofs when fighting VS. I'm not sure I completely agree with this, a MAX on a roof is just as easy to take down with small arms fire and explosives as a MAX on the ground. Just hide and C-4 his butt. Problem solved. Or just get another LA friend and shoot the MAX to death, problem solved.

    Now, if the jump-jets were to be implemented what would a sufficient balancing factor be? I propose that a small armor reduction be in effect with the jump jets equipped. Why? We could justify it by saying that the MAX's armor is lighter to allow flight. The armor reduction would not be as great as ZOE's reduction, perhaps about half of what it is.

    Secondly, if the armor is lighter we could assume that the MAX is able to move a BIT quicker than their other bulkier counterparts, giving them a slight speed boost. (Again, perhaps half the speed boost of ZOE?)

    Finally, the jump-jets themselves would function much like a LA's, only with a reduced fuel pool? I've read the idea of drifter jets being thrown around, but I'm not so sure how useful drifter jets would be on a MAX. LA's can use them to C-4 bomb things and quickly outflank an enemy, but a MAX without the benefit of C-4 and with a lower speed and fuel reserve would just be awkward with drifters.

    That's really what I came up with as I pontificated the idea, I look forward to a CONSTRUCTIVE conversation and perhaps together we can all come up with something we agree upon.


    Give Jump-Jets to VS MAX units, slightly reduce their armor and give them a slight speed boost as well.
    Not drifters.
    • Up x 2
  2. Hosp

    No. To many Light Assaults already, we don't need a flying MAX.
  3. KnightCole

    I really never thought the JJ MAX in PS1 was all that balanced.....Lets go give the Vanguard the ability to climb walls and see what people say.

    Or why not, lets give the HA cloaking cuz the shield is OP right?

    JJ would be just as ******** as ZoE.....Would you really want the VS swarming all over a tower with 48 JJ max suits? Or on an AMP station with 48 JJ MAx suits? Then you would really have MAX in ur freedom fries........
    • Up x 1
  4. Van Dax

    anywhere a LA can go a max can get there already. I assure you that those saying its op off the bat have not fully considered the situation and options for balancing.
  5. Ruvan

    I would rather have a cloak option, suggested by someone in another thread.

    Same damage taken and movement speed as live. Can't fire while you're cloaked, like Infiltrator.
    • Up x 2
  6. Pikachu

    Luperza said in a video that they tried jump jets and that they were very overpowered. Much more than ZOE.She said they were in PS1 too but that PS2 has more vertical gameplay and therefore the problem would be scaled up.
    • Up x 4
  7. Schwak

    I think Jump jets would be fine because while they are at higher places they have no support. If they are attacking without support then their chances of dying and not being able to revived are a lot higher.

    Also, I just started a thread on changing how MAXs are revived which would actually compliment this idea, leave your opinions and support.

  8. isilyan

    Well sure it would be a game changer, but you cant support a Max that goes away from its Engi support.....
    • Up x 1
  9. Rogueghost

    I'd take ZOE over jumpjets any day, even if at max rank MAX jump jets only preformed as well as rank 1 LA JJs.
  10. Quiiliitiila

    Ah, thanks for pointing this out. I'd not thought about support and the ability to be rezzed.
  11. Quiiliitiila

    While I respect Luperza's statements and I'm sure the devs did do a little bit of testing, but honestly how long and with how many people? Was it a small test group of 10? 5? What were the tactics used? What happened to make it OP?

    I think it would've been better if they'd thrown the test server a version and allowed us to decide. We all SCREAMED that ZOE was a bad idea and we didn't like it. I personally liked the speed, but everything else sucked. If the jump-jets are as OP as they say, we'd agree and move on.

    Currently, as DAX pointed out, most places a light assault can get a MAX can get to, via drop-pods or vehicles. When we see MAX units in these situations they often get out of them as quickly as possible. Because, as stated in another post, there is no support structure for them. A MAX on a roof is a vulnerable MAX, one that cannot be re-supplied, repaired or resurrected. Furthermore, MAX weaponry is designed for CQC and will often be at a disadvantage when trying to fire on enemies from so far up.

    I theorize that with jump-jets VS MAX units will use the added mobility to outmaneuver and outflank enemy units, not snipe them from roof-tops. However, that's just my opinion.

    Thoughts? I do respect your opinion Pikachu, you've proven time and time again to be a strong voice on the MAX threads.
    • Up x 1
  12. Quiiliitiila

  13. Takoita

    Dude (or dudette, can't see from here), imagine that only one faction would be able to get their MAXes where only LA may get without aircraft assistance. Do you honestly not see the problems it would cause?
  14. KnightCole

    Yes, except the current MAX has to use the stairs, the door ways...its not just going to jump up the side of the wall, dakka a bit then LA away...........
  15. Quiiliitiila

    It's Dude, the "a" at the end of the name lead some to think it's feminine :p

    To answer your question, I'll ask a question; what situations would you view as the most OP in regards to this power? The tops of towers/tech plants and amp stations can already be reached easily with a gal-drop and/or drop-pod, in fact, it'd take longer and a lot more effort to jet up there with the reduced JJs.

    These JJs would really be good for smaller buildings, allowing the MAX to traverse some bases in new ways. Not allowing them to jet around and get to really high and normally unreachable places. But, even so. What problems would a MAX cause on a roof so high he can barely hit people on the ground with his weapons?

    What form of JJs would you consider to be OP or not OP? What would a balancing factor be for you?
  16. Takoita

    Will non-voice-coordinated squad or simply a bunch of random players be able to coordinate enough to flush out a MAX group that was able to find a place unreachable by HA, MAX or (in case of an outdoor fight) concentrated tank fire? I doubt that.

    The most dangerous place would be the Biolab base. While it is not impossible to get a regular MAX on some of the higher points in there, it cannot be done in timely fashion under fire. LA on their own do not have enough firepower to deal with that threat. Same with any other base where there is a higher place not immideatly reachable by rocket launcher and tank cannon fire.

    The vulnerability to aircraft is very likely to occur in a good deal of non-Biolab situations, yes, but do you really suggest the opposite side needs to call in Liberator reinforcement to deal with each and every pocket of such MAXes? Really?

    Suppose the jump-jets are balance-friendly enough to deny the jump-jetting MAX an overwhelming advantage. Question: who would like to play with nerfed Drifter Jets in exchange of the ever-useful Charge or some other ability?

    Maybe I'm wrong and just suffer of Lockdown bumache overly paranoid. But giving a MAX a not completely impotent jumppack would cure a MAX of its biggest downside - very limited mobility. Which is.. well, I have no further comment on that.
  17. OldMaster80

    Yeah but there's auto-repair and some bases are just too vertical, they would be out of reach for C-4ing LA and rocket launchers. A Group of Max Units covering a rooftop would be likely to create a no-pass zone.
    I'm for keeping the ZOE as it is, but they must add a cooldown. The "on/off at will" is just too much.

    Then I believe large part of the problem is not the skill itself but the massive spam VS do of ZOE. Today on Miller there was a 12-24 of VS attacking Rashnu Biolab, they massacrated us but they didn't capture any point and we couldn't understand why. Then we suddenly realized they were ALL Max Units.
  18. Dead soldier

    give the VS "crab" looking max wings! bigger hitbox and more reason for it flying
  19. isilyan

    The reason is think ZOE is kind of broken, is that it does 3 things. Where TR and NC max powers does 1 thing(ok TR 2), and is somewhat in line with their Tank power...
    But i am all for a cooldown because i think SOE would not remove ZOE to give VS a new power....
  20. Mhak

    The image of flying MAXs raining comets down on enemy armor from the sky suddenly makes ZOE seem not all that OP.

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