I've never heard anyone defend 'Redeployside' so why do you continue to let this kill the game?

The hex system was whack-a-mole. Any large fight PL had to send people around to stop all the little ghost caps because everyone else wanted to be in the large fight too and not deal with ghost caps.

I'm missing what your getting at here. Are you suggesting that removing the lattice system will somehow allow smaller groups of people to defeat larger groups? Ignoring the fact that a lot of bases on the lattice system give you multiple directions to take, what is it you expect to do? Go somewhere else and do what? Ghost cap the base? That's still a numerical superiority. All the other side has to do to stop that is bring in people to reestablish the numerical superiority on their own side.

I could give you an explanation of an idea I'm working on for a lattice/hex hybrid, but I'm not invested enough into this conversation to put all that effort into a personal presentation for you.

An example I'm talking about would be Bio Labs in the old Hex. If you're the attackers then there's more to do than just take the outlier and go through the teleporter. You have to fight for the other outliers to secure multiple ways to get into the Bio Lab, and you need those so that your capture time isn't excessively long. As the defenders you have a similar objective. It adds more to the fight than simply taking as many people as possible and having them all move to the same spot (in such a case even real-time tactics are secondary to numbers).

Alright, thanks for explaining. I don't play in outfits so don't really know how the system works.

But I do know how current span system in bases works. You can go closer to them by redeploying and spawning and repeating once you can spawn to the base you wanted. What I would change, is that you won't be able to spawn those bases near the zerg, even if you used that "spawn hopping". But yeah you're right. It wouldn't stop outfits.

The trouble with redeployside is that it is uncounterable, and it ignores the scale of the map. That means it is always the right answer, and when there is something that's always the right answer, it's bad game design. In this case it's particularly bad because the correct strategic move is to let a cap get down to 1:30 or so with the enemy wasting 2 squads there, while you deal with another base, and then throw 2 or 3 times their numbers at it, which results in an experience of ghost caps and zergs and nothing in between.

PS2 has lots of transport options. Sundies, Galaxies and Valkyries are explicitly designed as assault transports. If you're soloing then Flashes are available everywhere and basically free (and they don't flip any more!). We should be encouraged to use them.

I've suggested lots of things in the past and I quite like the idea of SCUs in all bases, but I think the best is simply to disallow spawning in to any contested facility, including AMS spawns there, from outside the proximity spawn zone (whatever's used for allied AMS right now). Beacons and squad vehicle spawn would still work so you could still get people there, but not through an uncounterable spawn room.

One of the arguments in favour of redeployside (or at least free and extensive redeploy abilities, which facilitate it) is that it will make you spend too long travelling and not enough fighting. But I think this is wrong: it takes 2 minutes tops to get to any territory, and fights, even now, typically last much longer than that. If redeployside is nerfed then fights on lattice lanes are likely to stay balanced and fun for longer. And if we use a variant where you can still deploy to the uncontested friendly facility behind the front line, your travel time to the front is always under a minute.

Simple solution: Redeploy timers for a spawn increase as spawns / second increases. This encourages using other spawns such as surrounding sunderers or, "GASP" spawning in another base to bring in alternate spawns and / or bringing in reinforcements to kill the enemy siege.

redeploy system is fine as is.. People want to be able to find fun fights.. this system works fine. The system may hurt a few very select peoples play style but for the most part its makes the game more fun for people looking for fights. In other words redeploy helps this game many times more than it has ever hurt it. People just use this as an excuse... your platoon can still capture bases very easily, you can still help defend bases easily with help from other faction members of course.. in this I don't see it hurting the game at all.. If anything it allows reasonable response time for the enemy to react to your assault and that is also good for the game.

This is a non issue.. people having been trying hard to make it a big issue but its not.. it doesn't hurt the game in the least and allows people to still do what they otherwise would be doing except it doesn't take traveling every 2 minutes. the end.

Can you give me one example of a time where dumbing down the game to extend its lifespan actually ever worked?

Mechwarrior Online and Tribes Ascend both tried that. Guess where those games are now.

Casual players are ****. Casual players aren't going to play long enough to fork out significant amounts of dollars. Casual players do not form a worthwhile community. Casual players owe no 'allegiance' to the game and will leave the second something else comes out that catches their attention. It's like you want to open a sweet aquarium exhibit, put in two cool, unique fish, and then populate the rest of it by dumping in bags of goldfish. Nobody wants to see your dumb goldfish exhibit and they aren't going to come back.

People have been playing ArmA for YEARS because of things like this.

That's like saying aimbots aren't a problem because you can just use one yourself.

Define: 'jumping through hoops'. It sounds like all you want is to hop from Team Deathmatch game to Team Deathmatch game, using redeploy as a 'changing map' screen.

We're talking about a game where you have to conquer a continent. There's hundreds of square kilometers of territory to cover. There's a ton of transport options to get you around. This game is the direct sequel to a game that had people drive resupply vehicles to refuel bases, because pulling tanks would empty the base's nanite reserves.

And all you want to do is get from one fight to the next instantly, with the push of a button?

Why did you ever even want to play a game like this in the first place?

What happens when a battle is 50/50 and at the exact same time, I have every single person in my platoon spawn there?

That is why redeploy abuse sucks. It's 24-48 v 24-48, and then you instantly watch as suddenly it's 24-48 vs. 96+.

Which could've been solved in various ways, like introducing spawn queues.

The original design of Planetside 2 - from the hex system, to the tiny bases, to the 'visible player limit', to the total absence of platoon-level 'abilities', strongly suggests that it was originally designed to have multiple smallish fights happening at once, instead of three big fights on the entire continent.

Players who are packing an entire platoon into a single room and are literally unkillable are not playing the game how it was supposed to be played, and the devs never bothered to curtail this kind of behavior in any sensible format. Then they broke the game completely with this lattice nonsense and it's been a downhill slide ever since.

I'm not suggesting dumbing down the game. I haven't suggested changing it at all. I'm saying your suggested change would drive away a lot of players--namely, anyone who isn't part of a coordinated outfit. Personally, I play solo and do a lot of redeploying to defend bases. I'm not part of "redeployside" because I'm not an entire platoon who's going to save the base. I might make a difference in a close-ish fight, but I'm not a one-man army. More than anything, I do this because often the only alternative is to follow the zerg and camp spawn after spawn.

What's my point here? If you took away easy redeploys, I couldn't do this. It'd be a waste of time to pull a flash and maybe show up at the base in time to get farmed a bit before it's captured. A coordinated squad might be able to make this worthwhile with a galaxy drop, but by myself, it's a waste of time. That means I'm stuck following the zerg most of the time, which is boring, so I'd probably just quit playing for the most part.

Regarding casual players, you have to remember, they're content for the paying players. Unless you think you can have epic battles between you and 5 friends, you need those casuals filling out the ranks. No one's going to pay to see your two-fish aquarium, no matter how cool the fish are.

They can still redeploy, but of course they will need to plan it out more effectively. Say the base starts to cap and there are 5 minutes remaining. The squad must be aware of that and start "saving up" for a redeploy. Maybe 2 minutes later most people in the squad have enough nanites and can jump directly to the base in question. They'll arrive understrengthed, but them's the costs of redeploying.

Or they could just redeploy to the nearest uncontested large base for free and use your usual transports to get to the contested base. I think most of us would be ok with the uncontested large bases as free reinforcement points.

I don't think redeploying backwards (away from the fight) should bear any cost, especially if it's just one base back. The problem with Redeployside are players who directly deploy into a fight. Players who deploy away from a fight to prep the defenses of the next base or set up a counterattack wouldn't be penalized.

Taking that a step farther, I'd love to see Redeploy restricted to:

1. Base you're in.
2. Sundies in the immediate area.
3. Next base behind you in the lattice (assuming there is one).
4. Next base behind you that can spawn MBTs (assuming there is one).
5. Next base behind you that can spawn aircraft (assuming there is one).
6. Warpgate (assuming there... nvm).

If you want to magically teleport directly to a fight - Instant Action.

Yeah, this was never an issue of Redeploy...
Your small squad ended up pushing too far and drew the attention of the Enemy Zerg.
Sorry, but as long as we are stuck with every Continent split three ways via Permanent Faction Footholds, you can't avoid the Zerg because they've got nowhere else to go.

Once we finally get WORKING WARPGATES and enough Continents to string together a basic Intercontinental Lattice, then we might actually have room for on the sly Pushes, but right now there is just too little of space for that sort of thing to escape notice.

Well this is EXTREMELY well executed Spawn Suppression Tactics, something I doubt Frostiken, or many Outfits for that matter, would be able to pull off...

I'm guessing he only had about a Squads worth of people to work with, if that, which would be much harder to keep a mass Re-spawn suppressed with.

But again his issue isn't one of Redeployment, because he'd still run into this same problem without the Redeploy option, just with an extra five to fifteen minute delay as the Zerg pour in via Vehicles.
He's just mad that he can't use that fifteen minutes to pull of a single Pyrrhic Capture.

Oh hell yes, especially on Emerald...
Back on Waterson, our VS got used to being underpopulated, so they developed a very good intra-faction communication network in order to what little people they did have to where they needed to...
(This is also why I LIKE the Redeploy Option, it allows guys like me to respond to Bases that need Defense without wasting Resources on Disposable Aircraft.)

...Come the Merger with Mattherson and its Tryhards, and now the VS have this huge hammer to drop on ANY fight in their Territory, usually bringing with it an insufferable mass of Cheeseheads.

That's not so much an issue of Redeploy as it is the busted Alert/Continent Lock System and a COMPLETE lack of any real Intercontinental Mechanics...
As I've been arguing with someone on PSU who is trying to bring back the OLD Resource System, the inability to move from Continent to Continent and the constant Deadlock that leaves us in makes the Territory we fight over worthless.

Exactly!
The issue here isn't the ability for massive amounts of troops to move from one base to another, because if they REALLY needed to they have plenty of options to do that already, it's the LACK of LATERAL maneuverability that makes these large numbers so noticeable.

Since we don't have the framework for actual INTERCONTINENTAL WARFARE, we are all stuck with, AT BEST, four different flavors of "Fight X or fight Y."
You are never NOT facing an Enemy, so any time an Enemy is able to concentrate their number it is that more effective.

Honestly the current incarnation of Redeploy helps HINDER these sorts of massive movements, because being only able to move to directly adjacent Bases makes mass Transports much less of a hassle to coordinate.

Yeah, again the current version of Redeploy makes jumping to the other side of the map almost impossible...
The only way you really can is to mass jump on the "Reinforcements Needed" Spawn options, so unless a group is specifically lying in wait to do this (IE, Emerald VS), a squad is often better off just grabbing an Aircraft with Squad Spawn Support.

This isn't an issue of the Lattice...
Rather, it's that the Lattice only implemented on a CONTINENTAL level and we have no INTERCONTINENTAL gameplay to speak of.
Combined with a rather poorly implemented Continental Lock System, you have a setup where which ever side has the most numbers can take the most Territory ends up Locking the Continent just to concentrate the opposing Populations into fewer, now mostly deadlocked Continents.

In the Original Planetside, with it's Intercontinental/planetary Warpgate Lattice, each Faction only had permanent access to TWO Continents/Planets, but each of those Continents/Planets had Warpgates leading to almost half a dozen others!
So even if you were pushed back all the way to your "Sanctuary Warpgates" due to low Population, you could still push hard enough and work your way to another Continent/Planet/Map.

Yeah, but that's a netcode issue, and Planetside has a LONG history of Netcode issues...

That's basically what Redeploying is NOW, just without the "Reinforcements Needed" option...

Frostiken, as much as it pains us all, PS2 isn't the original...
Plus, the Original had the HART Shuttle, which could drop you pretty much anywhere but an SoI within 6 minutes...

Yes, the Devs built this game around Call of Battlefield FPS style maps, which was INCREDIBLY stupid because that's not what Planetside IS!
The Lattice was the first thing that actually got things going in the direction they NEED to but, like everything else, they've half-***** it.
We need WORKING GOD DAMN WARPGATES, and a Lattice that goes from ONE Continent to the NEXT instead of just one Faction Continental Foothold to the others.

I like the idea of assigning a nanite cost to redeploying. I think that it is probably the most reasonable and easily implemented as well. Probably the biggest argument against that I've seen is people complaining that it takes too long to get to fights. I would respond that if people were to need to drive/fly to the next base, fights would naturally develop in the outdoor areas between bases. Personally I think this would be a fantastically refreshing change from the clusterf*cks we have now trying to cram 200 players into tiny little boxes. I also don't think it would negatively impact randoms/loners as much as people think. I suspect you would start seeing a lot more open Gals, Sundies, and Valks - I used to see them a ton in the original PS. That kind of cooperation and organization from randoms is also a very good thing IMO.

Like someone said, I don't think nanite-funded redeploys are a miracle cure, but I think it would do a lot of good for the game right now.

The only real reason I'd mind them at all is that I'm a bit of a scrooge with Resources anyways, so I'd be less likely to Redeploy as a Reinforcement...

You're talking to someone who primarily uses an MBT and frequently has to drive for 3-4 minutes to get to a battle.

When it comes to infantry, this game isn't based around logistics for travel. It is based around logistics for spawning. As such, I find that I often have to jump through hoops in order to spawn at a base relative to how the game is normally played.

Right now the game is an inconvenient mix between having instant spawns and long travel times where you get the worst of either.

WALLZ OF TAXTEDDDDDDD!

I've been playing this game (effectively) solo since I started and I can tell you with certainty that I think redeployside is horse**** and is killing the game.

Everything about your post hurts my brain. There is nothing fun about looking around on the map trying to (a) find an even fight and (b) predict whether or not it's about to be **** upon by redeploying swarms of tryhard *****. Especially when I spend the resources to ******* fly there because I refuse to contribute to the issue at hand.

Someone else has already called you out on this, but I really think you need some more to drive the point home.
If the only counter to a given item or mechanic is that same item or mechanic, it's broken. Period.

I don't redeploy and only run a squad when I'm playing with my little brother or IRL friends. That said, when I'm looking for the next battle, I redeploy at the warpgate, grab a reaver and fly to my destination. Since I'm not hoping around like a Mexican jumping bean, it's rare that at the end of a given fight I won't have the resources to do it again, if need be.
It takes maybe 30-45 seconds to get to any destination; less so since I've fully spec'd for speed and afterburners. It's not at all tedious and actually makes me give a **** about the layout of the world.

You most certainly do -- use your minimap. Or, if you're just standing about on the point anyway, look around. Further, galaxies can only hold 12 people (16? Don't recall off the top of my head). For an entire platoon to crash down via galaxy drop, that requires 1800+ resources and the time necessary to coordinate 48+ people.
I'll admit that if the battle isn't being won by either side, a (mass) galaxy drop into a battle isn't any different, functionally, than redeploying; but removing the redeploy option will put an immediate end to the "LOL 48 PLAYER MAX CRASH IN THE LAST 60s OF A CAPTURE" shenanigans (and those that still happen will be heroic last-second efforts that used to be youtube worthy).

No it doesn't. When entire battles are disrupted by it, squad/platoon members and loners are equally ****** over. Sure, a loner can redeploy to a different fight easier (don't have to coordinate with several others); but without squad/platoon mates, it takes longer for them to readjust to the new battle and figure out what roles aren't being filled by the teammates at the new location (without organization, that last step takes longer and is more tedious; the virtues of this, however, are a debate for another thread).

I've already discussed this above. Yes, once they get there, they can deploy the same as someone who redeployed in; however the time and resources they spent upfront to get there is the important part. Additionally, simply having that warning that (12 * galaxies) players are about to drop into your lap may be enough to organize players (or wake up AFKers in the case of abandoned bases or otherwise low-activity battles) and prepare a proper counter attack.
I've seen mass galaxy drops fail; I've never seen a mass redeploy fail.

See above. If the counter is the thing itself, it's broken.

TL;DR:
Redeploy is stupid and every argument for it is stupid. Feel free to read the above anyway if you disagree, but chances are you'll just say "just counter with redeploy DERP DERP" or "HERPY DOOoo it's not that bad!" In which case, go play the arena shooter you think Planetside is supposed to be. ******. :/