Infantry weapon comparison tool

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Axiom80, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. TheBloodEagle

    The claim isn't about VS being OP, only pointing out that there is a lot of misinformation about VS weapons that is constantly spouted, especially about "range" shooting. The fraction more damage is just as trivial then as 1 more bullet in DPS when there are so many other things going on at the same time. Yet the DPS argument still goes on and on and your tool helps insinuate that. It's a neat tool, no doubt.
  2. TheBloodEagle

    100 meters is NOT normal infantry engagement distance in PS2. Most of us are killing each other under 50 meters, heck most likely under 25 meters. Most infantry are seriously not shooting each other at 328 feet (100m) & especially not getting most of their kills at that distance. That's what the Infiltrators might be doing. That small advantage is an ADVANTAGE no less. Especially when people make a HUGE deal out of DPS when all it really means is 1 bullet more or less. 1.8 instead of 1.0 damage (for example) is still an advantage, especially in a game where it's not pure 1vs1 hit for hit; a lot of other damage is coming in also, that .8 damage could be the difference if you die, or are able to heal.

    Like I said, if it sounds trivial, then so are the numbers everyone judges regarding DPS.
  3. Vastly

    A little factoid from the stats spreadsheet states that, if you aim for the upper torso, you'd have to be shooting at a target about 175m away for the shot to miss.
  4. MrEclectic

    I have a question: I have read in other threads that SPA damage degrades faster over range, so you're not only sacrificing bullet velocity, but also DPB. According to the data here though, the only downside to SPA is the reduction in bullet velocity. Which is true?
  5. Axiom80

    That's a myth. The thinking used to be that SPA reduced the damage another tier at range, but in fact it does not. See this youtube video for a test. A developer confirms the same in this thread.
  6. Kite Carling

    A poor app. For example: It gives an Orion as having a slightly higher dps than a gauss saw at 120m.

    Are you kidding me?

    The SAW has perfect accuracy and does 167 damage per round. Rate of fire at 120m is tap...tap...tap...
    The Orion has a max accuracy (crouching ADS) of 0.1 and a damage of 112 per round. ROF as above.

    Erm...obviously the SAW wins.

    If you genuinely want to make an effort to compare guns you just must include all the other factors. The Orion, for example, could be said to *suck*: it has bad recoil like a typical LMG, bad accuracy typical of an LMG, and it sucks in the role LMGs are invented for: large ammo clips! If you compare the Orion with, say, the TR carbines then the Orion has got worse recoil, is less accurate, does no better damage etc. etc.. The only real bonus is the LMG's trait of extra bullets...but here the Orion only gets 50 as opposed to a typical 40 for a TR carbine. 10 more bullets for that trade-off of accuracy/recoil/applied damage! Weird!

    Note: I do quite like the faster ADS movement for the Orion, but can't spare a loadout for it. Also, I'm obviously comparing weapons a little across-class, but still: LMGs with small clips have obvious failings compared to other weapons which do what they are supposed to do (hail bullets in this case).

    It just ain't as simple as you'd like.
    • Up x 1
  7. Axiom80

    I just updated to v0.4, now with SMG data and some estimated Pistol data for the tier-2 pistols. I also modified the verbiage to make it more obvious that the DPS graph is unrealistic 'Ideal Damage/sec' that just represents the gun's behavior if you never miss and never have to reload. I'm working on a more complicated model for TTK based on COF, shooter position, fire mode (auto vs burst), and distance, but that's kind of complicated (thanks to Snotgurg and thefissk for their offers of help) so give it a little while. It's not like you're paying for it. :)
    • Up x 1
  8. Snotgurg

    You're the man Axiom. Modelling "reality" (we're talking about a game here) is always a hairy business. But we are bound to learn something interesting in the progress!
    • Up x 1
  9. Ture

    1.8 instead of 1.0 damage lol ? Please get your math straight.

    And i think 1 less bullet to kill at range allways is way better advantage than hypotetical "player has taken damage and 5 more damage kills" -advantage. Besides, if the enemy has allready taken damage you have the advantage anyways.

    Judging from your posts (and from count of them) you are one of these Forumside 2 players who want IMBA weapons for their faction.
  10. Loegi

    Looks sweet. Maybe add a theoretical ideal TTK mode? I know it's basically just dividing the Y-axis by 1000, but I'm too lazy for that constantly, and that's a bit more interesting then DPS in my opinion.
    Maybe some way to add the reloads in the time too? After magsize in shots add the reload speed without damage or something.
  11. Paperlamp

    Would like to point out that under 200 feet that "NO bullet drop" is inconsequential.

    My experience with all factions(BR 41 VS, BR 25 TR, BR 21 NC):

    VS have best LMGs, TR have better everything else, NC has nothing.

    That sounds like a TR whine, but I'll also admit that heavy assault seems to be by far the most played infantry, so VS having the LMG advantage is still a big deal.

    Why TR for Carbines and ARs? 40 vs. 30 ammo per clip for very little sacrifice is huge, and can often mean 2-3 kills instead of 1-2. If we're talking purely 1vs1, well the VX6-7 will probably beat the Lynx, barely, due to tighter hip CoF I'll admit, but being realistic the instances where it makes a difference will be far, far more rare than the instances where +10 clip size makes a difference. The Lynx also has the ADS movement advantage to consider too though, so at certain ranges it gets the 1vs1 advantage and the 1vs 2+ advantage and more overall potential kills/ammo pool. I ramble on about this particular gun type 'cause I use Carbines most. Though I'm playing mainly NC now which is making me consider a change to shotguns...
    Cycler TRV is just a beast though and outright better than the HV-45 IMO.

    NC, even after the flinch change, still just gets hit with two major penalties(high recoil and low RoF) for their one advantage(higher bullet damage, generally). The guns that are the exception to the rule are watered down versions of the other faction's guns.
  12. Suroped

    EM1, T16, T32 BULL and URSA are worst LMGs on dps graph given EM1 has SPA and last 3 have HVA. Can anyone post some info on how they perform in game.
  13. Necron

    One BIG problem with your charting system: It does not round down the number pf bullets per second when calculating DPS. DPS is Damage per second, so only whole numbers can be used. The Trac 5 for example fire 12.5 bullets per second. But you need 13 bullets to count it as potential damage and that goes into a new second, so only 12 bullets can be counted. This changes the trac 5 DPS to 1716 from 1787.5 at ideal range.
  14. TheBloodEagle

    Something about that seems wrong though, to think about it as 12, 12.5 or 13 bullets, in the sense that 12.5 doesn't mean anything. The server is adding up the damage, not just counting 1 bullet, 2 bullet, 3 bullet..3.5..that didn't count, know what I mean? Remember each bullet has a starting max damage than gradually slopes down to its min damage. So 12 bullets at 167 damage @ 10m will equal 2004 total damage. But you also have to remember that those 12 bullets could be hitting at different ranges, even 1 or more meters difference will change the damage after 10m (or 15m with SP ammo). So some bullets will do 167, some may do 166, 165, 164 for example as a target runs away (even maybe 163.50 for example). The misnomer people spread is when they talk about DPS in the sense that Damage Per Second if every bullet hits (100% accuracy) at the exact same distance is actual reality. Which, I hope most people know, doesn't quite happen in actual combat in PS2.
  15. Necron

    True, but DPS is based on potential damage, not actual damage. It is the Max damage a weapon could do if you shoot a guy in the chest at <10 meters. While it may not have an accurate translation into the game, it is a barometer that people use to judge how good a gun can POTENTIALLY be.
  16. Mxiter

    Nice to see those charts for "0 recoil-100% accuracy" aimbotters...

    But interesting to have a batter idea of the damage degradation and effects of differents ammos.
  17. TheBloodEagle

    I know but looking at it, as I mentioned, pretty much just instigates all the QQ threads. People use that judgement as the de fact way the gun gameplay actually is. It's pretty frustrating. I posted comments about this before but it doesn't really get anywhere. It's much easier for people to argue about it as if black or white (Carv vs SAW) with no gray zone. There's misnomers on many threads about who or what really has an edge and why and where. It's small things like, for example, if you look at the chart below, VS weapons actually do slightly better at actual infantry combat ranges (below 65m) than TR even with the same initial damage because of how VS weapon max-to-min damage slopes (you could say that .5 factor we mentioned above). But no one really looks at it or they think it's worthless (miniscule) yet folks argue about 1 more bullet to kill as the only thing that matters with the LMGs.

    I picked out, in my opinion and a few others, the best 3 TR LMGs (or rather actual worthwhile ones) and as you can see, the VS and NC have higher DPS potential against them except Carv. Hell, DPS wise (potential), the NC weapons completely win out against my favorite NC clone rifle, TMG-50 (my main weapon). Does that really give the "right" perspective on it? No. But not showing something in it's true, in combat light, doesn't stop the forum posts. Sucks a bit. Know what I mean?

    I put this chart together in a different thread.

  18. Axiom80

    That's not what DPS means. It doesn't have to be a whole number any more than your car can only go 70mph, not 70.5mph. In this context, it's (ROF * Damage/bullet) / 60. Divide by sixty because ROF is measured in rounds per minute. It's just an expression of the peak damage output of the gun, which is the damage rate if you never miss and never have to reload. Obviously that never happens in the game, so it's not meant to be reflective of actual in-game performance, except possibly when you're going full auto mid-clip. It will also tell you who wins if the two parties start firing at the same exact moment, and even then there's bullet travel time (you can out-DPS the other guy but still get killed by the last bullet from him, fired before your killer bullet lands).

    In fact, it says so right there on the tool page in bold italic letters: Ideal DPS bears little relation to actual DPS. I'm working on a TTK calculator that will factor in range, COF and recoil, but that's much more complicated than multiplying ROF by damage and dividing by sixty, so it'll be a while before I'm ready to make it available for public consumption.

    No, it isn't. The chart quite clearly shows DPS decreasing as distance increases. It's defined at any range 0m+. See above.

    tl;dr: If you 're quoting DPS in an attempt to win an argument, you're doing it wrong.
  19. TheBloodEagle

    It's clear you didn't really read my posts, just glanced, because that's not what I talk about (trying to IMBA for my faction) or what I'm exactly emphasizing even on here. You don't even understand what my point is/was.
  20. drNovikov

    It throws error messages today.