Infantry weapon comparison tool

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Axiom80, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. TheBloodEagle

    Yes but the EXACT same thing can be said about all this DPS/TTK stuff. The difference is 1 bullet in most cases. You just showed, 1 bullet difference even at far range. Yet a ton of people argue about it for pages. plus I will say that even though, you mention it's barely a difference, that difference can mean getting Assist EXP, finishes off someone in the red, with latency, that tiny bit can help you, it all can help you in some minute way. It's a shame that this is downplayed but 1 bullet difference on most of the game world gun play is overplayed, especially when TR and VS have pretty much the same ROF in most cases but VS have NO bullet drop. The majority of kills are under 200 feet (not past 65 meters).
  2. Tenhi

    Well I'm not sure if or how this game rounds the damage values. But logically speaking there will be NO situation were 1.8dmg more will kill a target that would survive otherwise. The only situation I can imagine is with HE splash, I'm not sure if its a linear progression or if its just 0-1m 100%, 1-1.5m 90% etc. Then again even then I dont believe that you will ever survive with 126.8HP.

    Same with the Assists. As far as I can tell the assists are % based... and again the situation from above applies.

    That being said the only difference between the TR and VS weapons is the 71m+ damage fall off for the VS. BUT, and this is important, 90% of the infantry fights are at 0-50m. So yeah the "disadvantage" of having harder fall off is kinda moot.

    Edit: Also looking at the damage again. I dont think there is a weapon that will deal such a small amount of damage that you will ever go from 8 to 7 shots with the Vanu Weapon and at the same time keep 8 shots with the TR one, the difference in damage is just too small. The Devs crafted those values very carfully if you look at them, its allways made in a way that they achieve certain shots to kill.

    Edit2: And to clarify it again. The only reason the harsher damage falloff is a moot point is because the distance it starts to actually affect our weapons is out of standard infantry combat range. If they ever manage to fix the render distance to allow us good fights over 70m+ it will start to affect the Vanu, for now its just a disadvantage on paper...
  3. TheBloodEagle

    I'd had many situations where my health bar didn't even show I had any life yet and I was able to get my ASC back up and medic heal me. With multiple ways to get hurt, and ways to be "finished off", especially when multiple people are firing at you, I'm sure it's worth more than you think. 1.8 is more than 1.0, correct? It's still a slight edge. If it sounds trivial, then you understand my point about DPS.

    I've been saying that. Most infantry fights are under 65m, my earlier reference was at 40m. The VS have a very slight edge, as you have even pointed out, even if you think it's miniscule. But if it is miniscule, then it's just as miniscule as 1 more bullet is when a lot of other variables actually come into play, not just pure DPS.
  4. xen3000

    I personally do not think the DPS you have in your program is an accurate way to calculate TTK or even good way to determine a weapons effectiveness for that matter. Here is what I got from crunching the numbers, tell me if they make sense or not.

    Interesting facts about Planetside 2 Firearms

    This is some interesting facts I have accumulated pertaining to Planetside 2 firearms. It is intended to show factual information to compare weapons from the three factions and to see the impact of various weapons mechanics.

    Bullets to Kill

    This information is assuming body shots only and no modifiers on the weapon or target. Assumes 1000 health target; 500 shield, 500 health. (last I checked this is accurate info) Bullets to kill range is the number of bullets from max damage to min damage. Organized by weapon type and number of weapons per category of bullets to kill. Does not show distance for damage fall-off as, other then VSs extended damage fall-off, distances are equal in each category of bullets to kill.

    5 = (7-10 bullets)____6 = (7-9 bullets)_______1 = (7-9 bullets)
    1 = (6-9 bullets)_________________________4 = (6-8 bullets)
    ______________________________________1 = (5-7 bullets)

    5 = (7-9 bullets)_____5 = (7-8 bullets)_______2 = (7-8 bullets)
    1 = (6-8 bullets)_____1 = (6-7 bullets)_______3 = (6-7 bullets)
    ______________________________________1 = (5-6 bullets)

    4 = (7-9 bullets)_____5 = (7-8 bullets)_______1 = (7-8 bullets)
    2 = (6-8 bullets)_____1 = (6-7 bullets)_______4 = (6-7 bullets)
    ______________________________________1 = (5-6 bullets)

    Battle Rifles
    1 = (4-6 bullets)_____1 = (4-5 bullets)_______1 = (4-5 bullets)

    SMGs (first batch only)
    1 = (7-? bullets)_____1 = (8-? bullets)_______1 = (6-? bullets)
    Note: minimum damage is not known yet

    Conclusions: VS damage fall-off means one extra bullet at extreme ranges to drop a target. NC extra damage means, on average, one less bullet to drop a target. Carbines require an extra bullet at max range to drop a target compared to ARs and LMGs with similar damage attributes.

    Damage Drop-off

    This information is assuming a linear degradation in damage from max-damage range to min damage range. VS damage at standard max-damage range for NC & TR is calculated with this assumption. Organized by weapon types, by damage per shot categories, and faction.

    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 65m )--------------( 115m )

    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 75m )--------------( 115m )

    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 85m )--------------( 115m )

    ARs & LMGs
    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 65m )--------------( 115m )

    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 75m )--------------( 125m )

    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 85m )--------------( 115m )

    Battle Rifles
    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 85m )--------------( 125m )

    SMGs (first batch only)
    -----------------( 10m )--------------( 65m )--------------( 115m )

    Conclusions: At ranges before TR/NC reach min-damage, VS weapons (other than the BR) deal comparable, if not more, damage per bullet. The VS damage degradation only effects bullet damage beyond the ranges at which NC/VS guns reach their min-damage. This effectively makes VS equal to TR in the average weapons "bullets to kill" category until past the TR min-damage range, the exception being the battle rifle.

    Ideal TTK

    This information is assuming a linear degradation in damage from max-damage range to min damage range. It assumes all shots fired are body shots and that no modifiers are on the weapon or target. Assumes 1000 health target; 500 shield, 500 health. Assumes perfect rate of fire and no misses.

    Information is organized by weapon type, max-damage, and then the highest and lowest ROF for each max-damage category. TTKs are shown only for the highest and lowest ROF weapons for each max-damage category to provide a TTK range. TTKs are given for min/max ranges and VS max range where applicable. TTK is calculated based on how long it takes to fire the number of shots needed for a kill starting with one bullet shot (thanks toMrKfor pointing this out). Bullet velocity and other variables are not taken into account

    Max Damage= 143
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 65m )--------------( VS TTK @ 115m )--------------Weapon Examples
    845____________0.426s ______________0.568s ______________0.639s__________________Serpent, GD-7F
    652____________0.552s ______________0.736s ______________0.828s__________________T5 AMC, Solstice SF

    Max Damage = 167
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 75m )--------------( VS TTK @ 115m )--------------Weapon Examples
    600____________0.500s _____________0.700s_______________________________________AF-19 Mercenary
    550____________0.545s _____________0.763s_______________________________________Razor GD-23

    Max Damage = 200
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 85m )--------------------------------------------------------Weapon Examples
    500____________0.480s _____________0.720s_______________________________________AC-X11

    Assault Rifles
    Max Damage= 143
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 65m )--------------( VS TTK @ 115m )--------------Weapon Examples
    845____________0.426s ______________0.497s ______________________________________Cycler TRV
    652____________0.552s ______________0.644s ______________0.736s__________________CME,Equinox, NS-11A

    Max Damage= 167
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 75m )--------------( VS TTK @ 125m )--------------Weapon Examples
    600____________0.500s _____________0.600s_______________________________________Gauss Rifle (Burst), SABR-13
    526____________0.570s _____________0.684s_______________0.798s__________________Corvus

    Max Damage= 200
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 85m )--------------------------------------------------------Weapon Examples
    500____________0.480s _____________0.600s_______________________________________Reaper DMR

    Light Machine Guns
    Max Damage= 143
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 65m )--------------( VS TTK @ 115m )--------------Weapon Examples
    750___________0.480s ______________0.560s______________0.640s__________________T9 CARV, Orion, MSW-R
    652___________0.552s ______________0.644s______________0.736s___________________EM1,VX29 Polaris, T32 Bull

    Max Damage= 167
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 75m )--------------( VS TTK @ 125m )--------------Weapon Examples
    600___________0.500s _____________0.600s________________________________________EM6, Anchor
    550___________0.545s _____________0.655s_______________0.764s___________________Ursa

    Max Damage= 200
    ROF-----------------( TTK @ 10m )--------------( TTK @ 85m )--------------------------------------------------------Weapon Examples
    500____________0.480s _____________0.600s_______________________________________NC6 Gauss Saw

    Conclusions: All ideal TTKs are less then 1 second. VS damage drop-off tends to only add about 0.1 second to TTKs. ARs and LMGs will have better TTKs at range then similar damaging carbines. Weapons with lower damaging bullets will always have greater ROFs then those with greater damaging bullets. Greatest disparity in TTK and ROF is in the carbines and ARs with max-damage of 143.

    Personal note.
    With the number of contributing attributes to a weapons behavior, and the small differences in TTK, TTK appears to be a poor metric to measure a weapons performance, except perhaps the carbines and ARs with a max damage of 143.

    All calculations used information available on provided link.
    Weapon Stats
    • Up x 2
  5. Axiom80

    Tenhi is mostly correct, I think -- you can't fire fractional bullets. However, you can come up with situations where the edge matters -- against a standard soldier with Level 3 Nanoweave, for example, the distance before the Orion drops to where an extra bullet is needed to kill is 37 meters rather than 36 meters for the T9 CARV. It's a very small difference, and hardly the hill I'd die on when making claims that VS are OP. As I say right there on the page for this tool, damage isn't everything. It's just the easiest thing to model. :)
    • Up x 1
  6. Dingus148

    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Using dps as a metric is all well and long as the only comparison you're talking about is theoretical dps.

    Numbers =/= the game...this isn't an MMO, the numbers here are a bit more complicated than that
  7. Granicus

    Great job but people using this need to keep in mind effective dps, how easy it is to keep on target and the first few shots on target are what ussualy determine the outcome.
  8. Tenhi

    Yeah I guess there are some situations where you gain an advantage as VS under 71.5m. Then again like you said its all very miniscule. What I kinda dont understand is why the devs didnt choose a point for the lower dmg tier to kick in so that the graphs coincide. What I mean is shifting the range for the lowest damage range for the Vanu Weapon (comparing Carv vs. Orion) to something like 110m instead if 115m. I didnt do the math (to lazy... its 6.45 in the morning here^^) but that would eliminate the miniscule advantage we could gain above 65m.

    Edit: Looking at your numbers... are you sure?^^ Its 8 bullets @0-10m for Carv/Orion and becomes 9 at ~37m for the Carv and ~40m for the Orion^^. Nanoweave 3 gives you 1.15*500+500 EHP, that means you need less than 134.375 to drop from 7 bullets to 8 bullets. The Carv stays at 9 shots over 37m. The Orion falls to 10 Shots over ~90m.

    Edit2: Then again nobody ever said that the Vanu weapons suck at close-medium range?^^
  9. Aractain

    Don't forget about how nanoweave interacts with damage at range (its always 1 extra bullet but at range different nanoweave levels give more than 1 sometimes 3 extra). VS get a small advantage in the primary kill range and a disadvantage in longer ranges (for no bullet drop which they can overcome if they can use that to get more headshots but still a disadvantage).
  10. XRIST0

    Nice good job .
  11. Tenhi

    The main disadvantage at range isnt the damage falloff. Its a combination of higher CoF and higher first shot recoil multiplicators. While our recoil is slightly below the average TR recoil our CoF is slighly above. The thing about CoF is that you cant compensate it, the only thing you can do is burst. Then again the high first shot multiplier means that your 2nd shot will already be off target at long ranges (if you go for headshots).

    Thats also the reason why "skilled" players are better with NC guns. High recoil is something you can compensate if you learn your weapons. VS weapons are easy to use, but basically have "hardcoded" weaknesses that you cant overcome. Then again the difference is miniscule.

    Also in the end you will die by a Tank/ESF/Lib/Grenade anyways :p
    • Up x 1
  12. Ture

    You serious ? VS has really small advantage under 70m but loses after that big time.

    I cannot imagine 246 feet since i'm used to SI-units. But 100m is normal engagement distance in PS2.
  13. Pixelshader

  14. WalrusJones

    So apparently the T1S cycler has a DPS advantage over the NC-6 Gauss saw past 70meters, while virtually tieing with it at all other ranges.....

    I know there are other factors.

    However, the fact that it looses less of its damage overall with range really makes me question the value of damage per shot outside of semi auto fire.
  15. Goretzu

    Nice site. :)
  16. Kurreah

    As far as I'm aware, VS damage dropoff is identical to TR and NC until the others hit their minimum damage. They then suffer an additional drop down to a lower minimum damage after the TR and NC have levelled off.

    Hopefully the VR system will let us do solid testing to confirm how it works.
  17. Weirdkitten

    Think you are misreading the graphs. It extends your lowest TTK range by 5 meters at the cost of lowering your bullet velocity and basically does nothing else. A TTK graph would show this more clearly than (a fairly useless IMO) DPS graph.
  18. drNovikov

    We need to adjust the BTK and TTK with CoF, bloom and hit probabilities in mind. Take the target size at a given distance and calculate how many bullets will hit it if the weapon is fired in different modes + calculate how long it takes to achieve the necessary BTK amount.
  19. Snotgurg

    I have exactly such an analysis worked out in a spreadsheet, which I shared with Axiom so that he can do something similar in his webapp.
  20. drNovikov

    Link please?