Infantry weapon changes - 12/12/2013

These new recoil patterns have to be reverted, they are completely random and essentially make all .75 movement speed weapons close to useless.

Increasing recoil is fine but making the pattern with random number generator simply makes all these weapons unusable. You can not compensate for a recoil pattern which reminds me a letter S.

So please revert the recoil pattern changes.

If people manage to land shots at that range, they deserve the kill. Making it more than one hit, in any capaity makes snipers - sharpshooters.

And as everyone has been pointing out, people might as well just run scoutrifles.

The problem is not that ALL LMGs are overpowered but that SOME LMGs are overpowered. nerfing them all evenly still leaves them unbalanced.

The striker has been vastly overused since its release. Sure you can joust and use flares but I always prefer attacking VS / NC instead of TR because of this and other balance issues.

I'm fine with the hipfire and LMG changes, MSWR with ALS always felt really cheesy. But I'm quite worried about .75x ADS weapon changes since they seem to be getting pretty bad nerfs to both hipfire and ADS.
Semi-OT: How many NC weapons have .75x ADS?

I don't quite understand the hipfire nerf to LMGs. Most of them are terrible at hipfire even the ones that are good at it there are ARs that are flat out superior at hipfire. For example; the MSW compared to the TAR. The TAR is better than the MSW in almost every way (RoF, hipfire CoF, and ADS movement speed). The only thing the MSW has over the TAR is the class holding it.

Nerfing the hipfire on ARs and LMG is going to push people more into using SMGs and basically into the most accurate hipfire weapons they can get. The lesser accurate hipfire weapons are going to be pushed well pass the acceptable accuracy threshold (they were barely in it to start with) and considered not usable.

Also nerfing LMG hipfire to make them more in line with hipfire ARs but nerfing ARs hipfire as well? Isn't that going to just put them in the same place?

In short I think this change is going to just cause the lesser accurate weapons to be used even less and the more accurate ones (while not as good as they used to) to be even better in comparison. I also would not be surprised to see an SMG nerf a few months after this goes live, as they will probably become THE CQC weapons (much like shotguns used to be).

I was against the first 150m changes to snipers, but as to these new changes I don't mind them, they actually make sense. Gives more of a reason/differences to the other weapons, there still needs to be a few tweaks here and there, but I need more testing with new weapons to respond proper.

But I can say that the 250m range on lest the NC14 & LA80 is capped at 300m not 250m currently on test. The SAS-R and Longshot OHK range is correct. I have yet at the moment been able to find an angle to test the full 350m Render range on all weapons, as can only get an angle so far on Maxes lol.

Hardly any, From my research only 2 and their both assault rifles. While the vanu get 2 LMG's and 1 Assault Rifle and the TR get 2 Carbines and the TAR.

Assault rifles with better than average hip fire, the Carnage BR, GR-22, TAR, H-V45, NS-11. All of which have the same hip fire as a standard Carbine.

These changes don't make a whole lot of sense. First every hipfire LMG pales in comparison to a hip fire AR/Carbine. Both in damage (some really bad like the EM-1 or Polaris) and in COF / accuracy. The trade off is pretty clear, weaker stats for 10 or 20 more rounds per mag. If you wanted to change something, it should be that the MSW-R, Orion, and the Anchor lose two damage tier's like hipfire AR's and all carbines.
*note* While you are at it, ranged carbines like the Trac 5 AMC, Pulsar C and the AC-X11 should only lose one damage tier at range.

Hipfire AR's get stuck with the two damage tier drop like Carbines, why make them randomly worse?

With the laser sight nerf in general, I can understand where its coming from. A lot of people throw them on because most of the infantry fighting is crammed into close quarters. Why? Because if you step outside you'll be shelled by HE, your best hope at infantry combat is to cram yourself behind enough walls that some clever tank driver can't lob an HE shell through. You'd probably seem forward grips become more viable if you allowed infantry fights to occur at ranges greater than 30M

With the ranges on OHKO ranges, there is currently no real need for a range cap as 300 M is the render cap as I'm sure you know. If you are going to give infantry OHKO protection from direct hit explosives, there should be a viable option for random sniper shots as well. Previously the problem was Nanoweave was too good at everything, there were few good reasons to use anything else, that and you could survive a head shot @ something like 70 M.

To touch on something related to infils, in most games when you have snipers everywhere, there is a risk/ reward ratio involved that basically says, your team gives up firepower for precision range. In planetside, this isn't the case as there is no "team balance' you simply have more people which can randomly pick you off from any distance they can see you. If you are trying to move away from 1 hit kills you can't react to / do anything about, infantry should have an option to protect themselves. Movement only works against bad snipers (which lets be real, most of the people we see playing infil, with very few exceptions are pretty terrible, so it works okay)

Really the best thing you could do (which would take way too much work) is to implement a head slot option for infantry where one of the options is a helmet with protection vs. headshots. (Others being like, advanced optics spotting bringing the old Q spot HP bar options back. Target painter, where Q spotted vehicles stay spotted longer and get locked onto up to 25% faster. Advanced sensor that acts like acts like a mini sensor dart that can be certed up to 7-10 M range for the player only and unsupressed shots fired track from longer distances etc etc etc. )

What LMGs were they comparing the HIpfire stats from? Ive never seen an LMG be to amazingly accurate at hipfire beyond a few meters, even with a Laser. THey using the MSWR, Anchor and saying all LMG outperform AR at hipfire? Im pretty sure thats a load of crap. If the LMG is outperforming the AR its only cuz the 100-200 rounds lol.

Thank you for bringing the Sniper rifle distances back up, that should quiet a ton of people.

The problem still exists though, where snipers have no real role. Is there anything being done to try and fix That problem? There were a TON of good suggestions put out as a way to improve sniping after their killing power was taken away, have any of these been weighed?

We do have a role...the eradication of high priority targets. With that said, the recon drone will be the tool of a long ranged sniper because we will be in the most lucrative position to use it. If you were to use this device in close...you're a sitting duck for the enemy as you fly the little device around.

...as a long ranged sniper, it's another facet that can delve further into our role.

Hmm... I do seem to remember a certain member bringing up this exact idea way back when they first introduced the nanoweave balancing ideas. My numbers weren't exactly this, but I'd like to think maybe my post had some actual influence, though I would drop the TSAR teir weapons down to 150m, then make the 100 cert bolt actions + bolt driver 200m, just to differentiate the rifles a bit more.

...As long as the target is standing still, and half asleep.

This has been said a hundred times, but apparently it needs to be said yet again: Snipers can take out high priority targets only very infrequently, more often than not all it is, is stat padding. The only case where you can reliably take out targets is when it's people using lockons, in that case it's useful to be a sniper, most of the time otherwise, you are picking off random people. The reason for this, is that snipers lack the tools to get good positions outside of extreme circumstances, without the mobility needed to changes to positions without having to walk all the way back to base to get aircraft, a sniper will be limited.

The reason for this, is that you have to hit a headshot at a long enough range to not immediately be downed by reprisal. Also, because of the sheer number of people who are on the battlefield, and since death isn't even a somewhat significant set-back, your work will immediately be undone by a medic standing 2 feet to the side of the other medic you just killed.

The things that could balance this are:
Allowing sniping shots to be kills, that take away the respawn ability.
Allow shots from the BASR to cause some kind of effect on people that isn't death, so that the weapon can disable as well as it kills people
Allow greater mobility by the use of grappling hooks or short range blinks

The role of a sniper right now is information collection by dropping radar pins, and killing targets by means of an SMG. This isn't sniping, they may as well take sniper rifles and give them to Light Assaults, who can actually Use the weapon to it's fullest.

Edit: Also, I take it you noticed then that the weapons for the infiltrator now have a clear progression... people who want to do long range sniping from 300m, looks like they Have to buy into that. I try to avoid saying this, but this is one of those things that makes people scream P2W, and when you are tieing objectively better objects to the cash shop, it's kind of hard to argue otherwise. What other class has the most expensive weapon options also being the objectively better weapons? The best TR LMG is the default, the TR AR can be upgraded for a reasponable price. Now, to get the one weapon that you can use to reach out and touch people at 300m, you have to earn 1,000 certs, or just buy it. This is one of those things slanted against new players that makes buying the gun just more sensible to people starting out.

That is why these changes Bother me. This isn't rebalancing the weaponry very well, it's bowing to complaints of the forumside community as opposed to trying to actually make the weapons Better, and in the process new players who want to be snipers get shafted.

All excellent changes! LMGs are supposed to be squad support weapons, I am glad that they will be used as such. However, heavy assault should be able to obtain assault rifles as compensation. I would have preferred that bolt-action sniper rifles would all be OHK out to a considerable distance (with scopes affecting render distance and other statistics specializing the rifles), but still, a huge improvement. This warms my heart and proves that SOE does care!

Look throughout this thread...

How many non-sniper oriented players understand just how easy they can avoid most snipers by simply moving?

Aside from that, the high priority situations still exist.

1. I still see Engineers repairing turrets.
2. I still see Engineers manning AI and AA turrets.
3. I still see Medics and Engineers hiding behind walls, completely exposed to long ranged snipers, and remaining motionless because they think that they are safe.
4. I still see smoldering tanks duck behind a pile of boulders as the Engineer jumps out and just stands there stationary to repair because...he's behind a pile of boulders.

Death might be trivial in Planetside 2, but time is not. If you take a high threat down, that has given your faction a bit of time without that target posing a threat. With that said, we obviously have the psychological factor incorporated into the mix that places enemy infantry on edge due to frustration and paranoia...again, all you have to do is look through this thread to see that effect taking place even outside of the game.

Regardless of all that, we're getting a recon drone with applications we're not even aware of yet. No matter what this device does, it's going to be downright suicidal to use this while you are in close proximity to the battlefield. The recon drone is undoubtedly going to be geared towards giving long ranged snipers something else they can do aside from killing.

Now, I want to make this very clear...

Their decision is not pay to win...just pay to advance quickly. If you've played enough Facebook games, you'd understand what pay to win actually entails...and this is not it. Were any of these sniper rifles exclusive to the cash shop, unable to be obtained through certification points, then that is a pay to win aspect of the game. Were the implants to go live as they wanted, temporary boosts, that too would have been pay to win due to the temporary aspect causing a constant bleed. This is not pay to win...this is just crafty business.

Would it be nice if all our bolt-action sniper rifles killed at long range?

Sure...but hopefully the alternative rifles all excel in their own aspects. I have heard that the 250m rifles have a faster reload time over the 300m rifles, for example. So, this may not be an ideal catering to snipers...but it's perfectly fair and adequate.

We have our long range option and it kills in one shot at maximum range without a hard counter...........................that's not too shabby for a class that was about to lose the entire playing style of long ranged sniping. When the recon drone comes out, I think we'll shine even further...hopefully.

I'll just link to this post by SOLAR15 on reddit. It sums up what a lot of players, especially VS ones are thinking about the 0.75 changes as well as the hipfire changes.

SOLAR15 is a guy who knows what he's talking about, and has tested the 0.75 weapons enough to know what's changed and what hasn't. It makes for pretty depressing reading for anyone who likes infantry combat.

An awful lot of people are very worried about the 0.75 changes ruining weapons, especially VS LMGs. A lot of people within my outfit are very, very angry about this, as are a lot of people in other factions as well.

Best changes, still one of the best updates so far.

For TR, the MSW- R is going to be less effective. The reason why it was used over the CARV was because of the little extra accuracy it provided. Before this change, it used to be decent at hipfire, making it a viable CQC weapon. Without this ability, this gun drops from good to sub-par and just becomes an inferior CARV again. There's no point to taking the MSW-R when you probably will need a 100 rounds (CARV) to get kills in CQC. I doubt that these guns were ever outperforming SMGs at hipfire anyway.