[Suggestion] Increase Damage Resistance vs. Liberator Cannons (ESF/VALK)

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Insignus, Aug 20, 2016.

  1. Jamuro

    I am not sure how bad it is nowadays (since i haven't played in a while), but before the last air changes (coyote, tomcats, integrated radar) the dalton was op as **** in a2a.

    Yes, landing a single dalton hit was even back then extremly difficult, BUT you are not just fireing a single shot.
    The time it takes (took) for a single esf to kill a liberator the gunner usually was able to empty at least rougly 10 shots.

    Now this is in a situation where the liberator pilot doesn't know how to handle an esf!

    If the pilot knows it's ****, he can do A LOT better.

    1. The lib will climb the fleight ceiling
    By comparison the liberator is already easy to hit, so bouncing off a the ceiling is not much of an issue.
    On the other hand if the chasing esf bounces ... well then he loses most of his momentum and controll over his esf, meaning he is dead.

    Even if the esf pilot knows this and avoids it, by hugging the ceiling the liberator pilot makes it impossible for the esf to ever get into the libs blind spot.

    As a nice bonus on most continents during daytime, it's impossible to see dalton tracers, when facing the sun (or anywhere close to it)

    2. Speed
    Yes in theory an esf is a lot faster than a liberator ... but that's the thing, it's only in theory.
    During combat, simply due to the high health pool a liberator has any chasing esf has to put the liberator under constant pressure and aim to finish it off as fast as he can.

    If you don't go aggressive, the lib will simply retreat behind enemy AA or if less than 2 hexes away from the warpgate can simply return there without ever beeing at risk.

    Now regardless of the healthpool, putting pressure onto a target as an esf means, that you have to face it (all your guns are nose oriented).
    Which means, your only means of keeping distance during a fight is to either maintain a reverse manouver or do a 180 and burn away to get distance.

    *doing a 180 while facing dalton shells is a death sentence, not only because you slow down quite a bit, but also because you can no longer see the incoming shells and therefore give up any chance of activly dodging them.

    *Maintaining a reverse manouver simply is your best option, BUT sadly a reversing esf is quite a bit slower than a lib.
    (Not even talking about the fact that you usually cannot maintain a reverse manouver long enough to finish a fight vs a lib anyways).

    The result:

    Your average esf pilot will open fire, the lib will climb to the ceiling and therefore ensures that i can stay with the belly side facing the esf, or the esf has to close in an pray that he can outrotate the lib for a minute or two.

    And even if your dalton gunner sucks, the pilot only has to close in on the esf ... as in fly in a straight line at it.
    If the esf stays, it gets plinked away by some tankbuster shells (usually not immediatly deadly but it adds up) or it risks getting rammed.
    But the real issue is, that a liberator closer than roughly 200-250m thx to lag/reaction time/dalton shell speed, nullifies any chance of ever dodging the incoming shells.

    And at that range almost anyone will land 1 in 10 shots!

    Also, just as a little question to anyone claiming that the lib dalton combo is (or at least was until recently) not as potent as i stated.

    Please explain why EVERY 2 man Lib ever, decides to go for dalton shots instead of using the tailgun (with it's "dedicated" AA options.
    • Up x 1
  2. Saturax

    After cca 1000 hours i did spend flying in PS2 only think i can call ( nonsense ) are low skill players who want change balance of game, when they dont know basic about flying :D - Why not just creat another topic: PPA is OP, or ZOE need nerf ? Its sonds same like this topic to me... Good pilots can spend moust of time in liberator blind spots and still make dmg on them, if you dont know how do it is another story...
  3. Insignus

    This weak point happens to coincide with the tangent of the coverage cone for the dalton on the rotational axis that presents the belly gun at an engaging target. While rolling to engage someone in that zone can expose the liberator to a death roll, the act of rolling to present on that target can often spook ESFs into breaking off, and will give you a fairly good coverage for a shot with the dalton.

    Thus, that weak point seems to be most effective at low altitudes only, which can give the liberator the option of rapidly pitching up and then (1) Engaging you as you fly under or by in and overshoot (2) Rolling to track you as you break off.

    Even then, you are still presented with a situation where you must dodge perfectly or you'll die in one hit while also aiming and shooting and trying to predict their next move. Liberator is presented only with managing his coverage and the altitude limitations for a death roll. Part of this is because liberator is delegating aiming and shooting - but even this is an incredible disparity in risk margins for such a weak point.

    Even at the proposed values, even using fire suppression, getting hit by a Dalton will not be fun for an ESF. ESFs are notorious about spooking from damage, even the experienced pilots do it. Its a correct response. If you hit them with the Dalton under these changes, they will still likely break off, or you can slide into them and try to ram them off, both of which will force them to either afterburn into your main guns or maneuver into your tail gunner's arc.

    Finally, as others have mentioned, the Liberator can go to ceiling and stay there, negating the weak point and also putting them at an ideal firing point.
    • Up x 1
  4. Saturax

    There is 1000 beginers tutorials how fight vs liberators, so i will post one ( try copy this guys ( time 1:35 ) and you will get where liberator blind spots are )

    This guy is in position from where he can shoot liberator and he will never roll on him :D ( i copy liberator move and move with him same way but from ( litl behinde + above ) First part where he attack liberator from front in good strategy too ( i dont like it, because last weeks so many lagy players from closed server did come and you get dmg stacket from multiple shots or on place where you was before 3 days.) So... i prefer catch liberators from top, but from front i just fly directly on him in close distance ( evade main gun ) go above liberator in close distance make roll and stay in my position litl behinde and above.
  5. LodeTria

    I can understand for the valk because it is much slower than the lib and it's currently way under-powered.
    Not for the ESF though, as it far trickier to hit an ESF that knows what he's doing.
  6. IceMobsterrr

    You do realize that the Valk takes reduced damage from below? If you allow the Dalton gunner to shoot you from above, it is your fault.
    Plus, you obviously haven't seen good Valk pilots (not that there are many). That stuff is not easy to hit.
  7. Insignus

    Your opinion has been noted and dismissed for the following reasons:

    1) Stating things we already know
    2) Stating irrelevant things.
    3) Posting "Git Gud" with no context or actual underlying points.
    4) Failing to understand engagement geometry
    5) Failing to understand how the Valkyrie actually flys. Specifically, the fact that the Valkyrie achieves maximum velocity by flowing angled to the side and down. This makes presenting the under-armor to the liberator sub-optimal if one intends to disengage from the Liberator. Furthermore, even if the hit was taken on the under-armor, the damage would still likely be critical enough to set the Valkyrie on fire in most flight scenarios, just from random ground fire. The decreased maneuverability from being on fire would enable an easy follow up shot that would end the engagement
    6) If your response to the above point 5 was "Well if you're not using Fire suppression its not my problem" then unfortunately, if you are in fact a Valkyrie pilot, you are hereby officially excommunicated from the Valka.
    7) Since you are not likely a Valkyrie pilot, please feel free to continue posting should you wish to contribute something useful.

    Not to be salty or antagnostic, by the way. But we're trying to have a serious discussion here, and you rolling in and stating an obvious point that we've already covered, then dismissing the entire airframe and everyone who flies it, is not helpful.

    Or, put more simply, paraphrasing Futurama:

    "You should use your Belly armor, Valk! Maybe you haven't seen how people actually use the Valk well!"

    "Gee ya think? You think that maybe I should fly this Valk, the way I've flown it for 110 hours of flying only, that I use everyday at every opportunity?....YOU'RE A FREAKIN GENIUS YA IDIOT!"
  8. Devrailis

    • Up x 1
  9. KaoticSnake

    Ye Good job, I can't even be bothered replying to morons who don't want to put in the time/dedication to improve, it's really the easiest thing in the world to dodge a dalton when you're in an ESF you should be winning at least 9-10/10 fights a majority of the time even against some of the best dalton gunners.

    Seeing posts like this now just triggers me, rofl.
    • Up x 1
  10. Vakex

    I agree with OP all the way. And it isn't difficult AT ALL to hit an ESF with a Dalton. Even piss poor aim players can afterburner full speed, crank the Liberator sideways, and nail an attacking (or worse, unsuspecting) ESF from a HUGE distance away, with no damage drop off like the ESF's long range attack against Liberators; a nose gun, and EASILY nail that ESF OHK dead, usually within a few shots, even a ****ter aim Dalton gunner.

    It's ridiculous. Worse yet, God forbid you run into a GOOD aim gunner instead. Another great example: Mediocre, AT BEST, aim players can afterburner, crank the Liberator sideways, jump in the Dalton, acting as their own gunner with no other players onboard... And STILL, EASILY nail a far away ESF. Then jump back into the pilot seat and mosey along onward their mediocre way just fine and dandy before their Godberator comes even remotely close to pancaking the ground below.

    THAT situation ALONE, in ITSELF, just SCREAMS there is something horribly wrong here, and has been for a LONG time now.
  11. Sh4n4yn4y

    Esf pilot here.

    I agree that the Valk needs to be able to resist Daltons better. It can't outfly the big boys easily.

    ESF? No. I routinely go up against multiple Dalton libs, and while i occasionally screw up and die, I usually win. One liberator is usually just a chew toy that takes most of my ammo.
    An ESF can easily outfly a lib. If you get hit by the dalton, you meed to stop and rethink your tactics. Rushijg and barrel rolls, for instance, are sucicide.
  12. Imp C Bravo

    In the case of the Valk, 4 engies being able to rep it in flight giving the Valk unapproachable AA ability is based on the above players choosing to get in the valk and rep. The skill ceiling for each of those players is 0. The only players that need any skill are the pilot and gunner and even that doesnt have to be Ace tier if you have 4 engies repping regardless of their skill. That's a choice limited by player lazyness.

    For a Lib to be able to use the Dalton as an effective AA weapon the pilots and gunner need top level skill. That's limited by both time and talent.

    As player ability is not the same as player choice the op's earlier argument of the 'Lib needing super high skill to use the Dalton as AA not counting towards the argument that the Dalton is not OP just as the Valk is not counted as OP for being balanced around 4 players repping it' was in itself flawed. Player Choice, or should I say player lazyness, is not the same as player skill.

    It's the same reason that G2A stayed in the state that it is. Libs and ESFs currently dominate small 12v12 man fights. However, were every player on the team to pull a non nanite costing heavy, send a lockon missle at whatever air vehicle was farming them, then any air vehicle in the game would die very fast and move on to other areas. This is because G2A weapons are, in fact, insanely destructive to air...more so than any other weapon system in the game.

    However that doesn't happen. Air kicks the crap out of most AA. Why? That's because people ignore the air threat and leave it to someone else to deal with. When in truth, 6 people per team are all you need to remove air from the hex entirely. This is viable in any size fight. They don't even have to focus on it -- just pop off their rockets -- watch the air explode, and go back to the ground game. Do this once every minute or so for about 5 to 10 minutes and air ceases to exist. But they don't. They leave it for someone else to deal with. And air farms. This is player choice and player lazyness.

    -->Because G2A HAS the potential to remove air at an exponentially unequal rate compared to air ability to kill ground G2A never changes or gets meaningful buffs. This potential is ONLY limited by player lazyness -- not skill and not nanites.
    -->Because Valks HAVE the potential to destroy large numbers of aircraft and everything else under the sun with a full crew they never get buffs. This is only limited by player lazyness -- not skill and not nanites.

    Dalton hasn't been nerfed because the potential is not limited by player choice or player lazyness --> it's limited by player ability.

    I am not arguing that the Dalton should be able to combat air as well as it does. I am simply stating that the argument is flawed as is most of the arguments in this thread. They only account for the limited availability of player skill when in defense of their beliefs and then discount it when it goes against their beliefs.

    As it stands, the point of the Dalton being insanely high skill and hence highly limited as an AA weapon holds up in an unbiased argument for its current performance. The point about Valks and balance around player choice does not hold up as a counter in the respect of this thread's OP. They are two different things and should not be referenced with each other in this argument.

    The entire G2A, A2G, and A2A needs a complete dynamic change imho. I do not believe that the Dalton should be an AA option ever even though I know that goes counter to my argument above.
  13. LodeTria

    The only vehicle in the game that could survive 12 locks ons is the galaxy, and maybe a vanguard with the shield on. Don't try and claim that G2A are more deadly than G2G.
  14. Imp C Bravo

    This is also ridiculous. EsFs at equal skill levels are not at all disadvantaged to liberators vastly out ranging them. ESFs can reliably damage libs at great ranges while easily avoiding any dalton rounds that come their way. More to the point -- the comparison begs belief that cannot be supplied.

    In no way is an ESF fighting a Lib similar to a flash fighting a MT. The disparity between flash and MBT mobility is far smaller than Lib to ESF. Esfs are, quite simply, far more mobile in relation to Libs than flashes are to any imagined MBTs. Second, a weapon comparison shows almost an inverse relationship between the ESF to Lib when compared to the Flash/Basilisk to the MBT of your supposition. A flash with a basilisk has far less range than a MBT main cannon in relation to the Lib whose Dalton is only equal range to the ranged noseguns of the ESF or the lock on tomcats which never miss. The dalton has far less muzzle speed and more drop being easier to dodge by anything, but especially the more mobile ESF, compared to the main cannon of the prowler.

    The ESF, while more fragile than the LIB, is far better in terms of versatility over all whereas the Flash is far more of a niche vehicle in relation of MBTs.

    ESFs are far too powerful against every other vehicle as the vehicles stats prove resoundingly.

    Are you supporting my point or arguing against it? I am not sure. G2A is more deadly potentially for many reasons. The problem is, as I mentioned, it is player choice -- people choosing to not use it. 6 skyguards are 350 nanites each. 6 ESFs are 350 nanites each. 6 skyguards will destroy 6 esfs with no effort. The issue is that people WILL pull 6 ESFs, people do not choose to pull 6 Skyguards for various reasons. The main one being that skyguards are free certs to anyone ELSE, whereas ESFs are able to fight everything.

    Even 6 players using lockons will be able to kill a gal in 2-3 salvos. They can keep doing this against all air with (relatively) far less time and resources invested. The Gal will have no chance to escape the salvos as it is simply not fast enough to get out of range once the missles start coming in. ESFs and libs die faster of course. The problem here, again, is that people don't use G2A in this manner. If they took a minute, just 1 minute, out of their ground fight to do so, they would destroy air. In a larger fight this DOES happen to varying extents-- hence in 48-96 person fights most air can't stay around long (or at all as the chance that a half dozen people decide to G2A increases as the number of players increase. Their survivability against ground threats also increase as numbers increase giving them more time per life to rocket the hell outta air.)

    My argument is that, because this COULD happen at any given time for no nanite and no skill cost (hence, it is limited only by player choice...ie. player lazyness) G2A has not been buffed by the devs. Currently, 2 or so people plink away at air and air escapes with far lower risk of death, and air feels super OP because air rarely dies. This is partially bad air/ground design, and partially player choice failures.

    This is not just about G2A though -- this extends to A2A. The reason why the Dalton hasnt been nerfed against ESFs is that the potential lethality of the Dalton is limited by more than just choice or resources -- but also player skill. The ESF, being vastly more mobile, more versatile, cheaper, and reasonably deadly in terms of firepower, is able to get more returns in terms of combat efficacy vs the lib with increases in skill. Again, I don't say that G2A is strong vs air, its not and needs to be changed...but not because it is weak...but because it is not attractive. I am not saying the Dalton is fine vs air...I'm saying it hasn't been changed up to this point due to the limitations outside of the inherent weapon mechanics and that such a change would only further insulate higher skilled ESF pilots from dangers in the air.

    I mean, if you (royal you, I am not saying YOU you) are an ESF pilot of course you want less stuff to be able to kill you...but that is personal bias and not healthy for the game....the rest of us are looking for balance because the mechanics have hurt the population out too much and we want to play and enjoy PS2 again...
  15. Saturax

    One think i realy miss on valkyrie.... after burner, like lib and esf have ;)
  16. Insignus

    I fly Valks. I'm going to tell you right now that the 4 man repair Valk is not nearly as useful or widely used as you think it is, and to be honest, I wouldn't mind it being dramatically reduced.

    The problem I have with your assertion is that while it can sometimes be powerful, the power projection you get off a full engineer Valkyrie is dramatically lower than that of a Liberator. The limiting factor really is the weapon damage potential. While with sustained repairs to brush off ground fire can make the CAS-14 easier to use and thus inflict decent damage vs. Infantry, the fact remains that many vehicles can rapidly overpower the repair abilities of any rumble seat engineer, and certain weapons can kill the engineers in the rumble seat. This requires that one run the Valk with SLS installed instead of Scout Radar, which dramatically increases the coordination required between pilot and gunner, as the gunner can no longer cue off motion tracking alone.

    While there are specific manuevers that one can use to prolong the survivability of the Valk, all of these require operating at high altitudes (Specifically the looping RM manuever that randomizes motion), all of which reduce the Valkyrie to a flying target drone that serves to attract fire, because past about 150m altitude, the offensive power of the gunners weapons falls off rapidly due to accuracy, power, and damage type questions. The repair rates for the Valkyrie rumble seats have been reduced several times. The lack of stabilization in the rumble seats makes using lock ons require a degree of skill for both pilot and passenger.

    Versus aircraft, there are only two real viable weapons, the default M20 and (Occasionally) the Hellion, which is generally somewhat usable vs. larger targets. The hellion can be fairly powerful vs. ESFs, but because of the lack of stabilization in the rumble seats and the lack of 360 degree view for the gunner, hitting things with the Valkyrie often requires steady and predictable motions in an airframe that has extremely responsive control.

    This works out to mean that if you setup shots for your gunner, you're also setting up shots for the enemy. Liberator guns have high alpha damage (Meaning immediately applied direct damage). This means that you can accomplish a great deal with snap shots, roll shots, and hi-speed passes. Valkyries, by contrast, require a steady aiming point for a sustained period before achieving a kill. The shortest of which is the CAS14 against infantry. The only Valkyrie weapons with alpha damage are the VLG, which still requires a steady aim to guide the rocket in, and the Pelter, which no one uses because it fires too slow and has a clip thats too small.

    To your other (I feel main) point about your concerns on the effectiveness of Dalton vs. ESFs, and high-skilled ESFs being potentially insulated from liberators by these changes, I'm willing to concede that it might be too much of a stretch for this to be applied seriously to ESFs. But I stand by a contention that it should be playtested before being discarded outright.
  17. Insignus

    I've actually thought about that a good bit. I think the reason that the Valk doesn't have an afterburner is the dev logic that it would make Valkyrie drops un-interceptable, which in their minds would be unfair.

    My view of course is that we're only talking about a maximum of 6 non-max infantry , with reduced drop accuracy due to over-speeding + lag. It would also give it a situational edge over Gal-drops, and give it a nice survivability boost.

    My only concern is that the Dev's would attempt to implement in some bone-headed why like making it a performance slot option, meaning you can have afterburner or hover or evasiveness.

    This would mean no one would use it.

    Thus, they'd have to make it a default afterburner, or bifurcate it into a lower-powered booster (Applies additional thrust in whatever direction you're applying it in) or a generic forward afterburner like on the Lib.

    This would require coding an entire new set of options on the Valk. It would also make Liberator pilots scream and yell for their own default afterburner, which I do not think would be balanced. But that is an issue for a seperate thread.
  18. DQCraze

    Seriously when are you seeing all these libs, i play everyday on emerald and in a 8 hour time period i see maybe 3-4 libs. You guys are acting like like there are swarms of libs flying around 24/7.
  19. DQCraze

    Why make anything skill wise in any game. Every gun should just automatically land head shots and it should take 6 to kill a infantry unit. That way we can just all run around point and click, we can even remove the terrain and cover, how fun would that be. Gone are the days when people actually tried to get good at a game, now we get cosmetic effects so we can look pretty. Everyone gets a trophy and we can all go home winners. YEEE HAAA
  20. DQCraze

    So if im a high skill player using a weapon that gets better as my skill grows, wouldnt that be worse when playing against low skill players. You dont make any sense.