[Suggestion] Increase AA skill floor and ceiling

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Movoza, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. Scr1nRusher


    The bias is showing.

    If "pilots" didn't spend so much time facing the ground....... maybe AA wouldn't have to be pulled so much.

    Also because AA is so bad, you HAVE to pull alot of it to even stand a chance or even hope in a blue moon to kill something.
    • Up x 1
  2. Demigan

    and for once, I'll be glad to be going there.

    Improving flak velocity wouldn't change much. It still has too much RNG on the COF, and it would still have a bad multi-functionality so the moment aircraft are scared off you are sitting there doing nothing but be a target. If you don't have enough DPS/AA backup to keep those aircraft away you are a target for everyone, ground and air alike.

    Also current flak is simply bad for the game. Aircraft should be just as much part of the game as infantry and tanks, and therefore have to endure the same dangers. Tanks and infantry always go into a fight knowing there's going to be weapons designed against them and fully capable of killing them, and fight there anyway. Aircraft should be similar: No matter what counters or how many (up to a point of course) AA sources there are aircraft should simply be joining a battle. They should simply join a battle because AA sources would be par of the course but not a guaranteed death, and because AA sources would be present at just about any battle so picking a different fight in the hopes of finding not a single AA source/not enough AA sources would be futile.

    That's how a fair and good system would work. That's how lethal but skillful AA would work.
  3. Scr1nRusher



    Understand this.

    AA is ground based.

    Ground takes out AA(which is taking out Air), so Air can take out ground.


    Thats how things are supposed to ******* work.

    They don't. And that is why PS2 has problems.

    Also, why is it a bad thing if Air can't dominate every fight anymore?
    • Up x 1
  4. Littleman


    It's more of an issue of the way flak multiplies itself. One dude with a flak cannon ain't a problem. ESF takes a few hits and ducks out for a quick tune up. Two dudes and lone aircraft start feeling the hurt. Three aircraft and it doesn't matter how many aircraft are in the area, it starts getting real hairy to fly.

    Four and it's damn near outright denying air to operate at all.

    Now, the problem with the AA vs aircraft paradigm is almost entirely the ESF's fault, really.

    1: They're a jack of all trades SOLO craft - no other aircraft operates entirely on one player and has a solid answer for everything.

    2: Can pack multiple solid answers at that. See below for why this is a problem...

    3: Some weapons are too broad in capability - rocket pods have splash, making them preferable to the nose gun for infantry farming. So why take an AI nose gun over a pin point AA capable nose gun if you have rocket pods? Now a pilot can engage everything. Especially rookie pilots trying to play hero, discouraging them from ever flying again, and instead taking up the flak cannon. REKT! Remove splash, add drop (seriously... the ONLY non-energy projectile in game without any drop) and that should force rocket pods into engaging solely armored targets.

    4: Flying itself is a royal PITA. The control scheme is completely dumbfounding for an FPS. There are flight games with better control schemes suitable for a mouse and keyboard - see: Warthunder or the Planetside-a-like, Angels Fall First (really worth checking this one out, but it won't actually replace PS2.) Basically, a little circle serves as the mouse cursor, and the craft attempts to align its crosshairs with the cursor. BOOM. Intuitive and easy to grasp control scheme for flight using a mouse and keyboard. Not this junk where we have to learn to manipulate roll and pitch to turn and maneuver while yaw is absolute trash. And the reverse maneuver? Either fix it so it isn't a thing, or make simply holding "reverse throttle" will actually cause the craft to move backwards. I prefer the latter, since it's very much about putting distance between oneself and the other aircraft while keeping them in sight.

    Y'see, the trick to nerfing/balancing AA isn't getting sophisticated with it, it's making the original, intended counter to aircraft - which is aircraft - easier to get into without getting absolutely $#!% on by the pilots that have more time in the air. Lower the skill floor and skill ceiling of flying, more rookies will take to the skies and hopefully not be as effortlessly trounced on. When there can be a fair number of decent pilots because the gate to entry isn't a booby trapped 20ft high barb wired wall, then AA can be restored to its former role as a deterrent, not a hard counter. ...Except against the bold and the stupid... like C4 and rocket launchers are to oblivious tanks.

    Until the day flying is more accessible, this game is better off without a constant air presence. There is no way to balance the system such that either too much AA is required to stop ESF farming thus it will fail entirely, or it's too easy to stop ESF farming. History has proven the game is better off making it too easy to stop ESF farming, so AA should and will stay where it's at until flying and success aren't reserved for a select few players that managed to make it.
    • Up x 1
  5. Demigan

    Understand this:
    The idea proposed would remove air domination, and allow all units (infantry, tanks and air) to participate with each other, as it should. All unit types need to be powerful. ******* over air will not solve problems. Also, buffing flak velocity does not **** over air.

    Even if ground takes out AA, there is absolutely no reason why aircraft should be completely barred from participating (that's participating, not utterly dominating) when there's AA around. Just like having infantry with AV weapons does not mean there's no tanks possible, or that tanks with anti-infantry weapons completely bar infantry from participating in a fight.
  6. Scr1nRusher



    Each part(Infantry,Vehicles.Aircraft) interact with eachother.

    Thats fine but if one counter isn't working it leads to imbalance.

    AA is fixable, and so is the "airgame".

    No re-works needed.
  7. Movoza

    You always either ignore posts, repeat what you said or simply scream something unrelated. Stick to a discussion for once.
    I appreciate that you understand a lot of what is wrong with the game. Still, what is your opinion on the proposed changes?
  8. Reclaimer77

    There's no fight where aircraft is unable to participate. Flak can't even touch you if you are at flight ceiling.

    What pilots mean is that when people get pissed off enough at them, and pull AA en mass, it gets harder to hover over people and groundspam.

    Boo freaking hoo.
    • Up x 1
  9. Pelojian

    That's exactly why it isn't balanced, devs want air to be able to have complete freedom of movement and target selection. air and infantry can almost completely lock ground vehicles out of fights, air and ground vehicles can almsot completely lock enemy infantry from a fight, but ground based AA can't almost completely lock out aircraft from fights unless there is more AA users then aircraft users.

    that is why it is broken, it takes 2 AA users to kill an ESF and only one mutlipurpose ESF loadout to trash multiple ground units, even if it takes a few attack runs.
    • Up x 2
  10. Demigan

    You can't participate in a fight from the flight ceiling. At least not with ESF. A Liberator might be able to bomb vehicles and a Valkyrie/Galaxy can drop infantry but those are separate problems that need adressing, preferably with powerful AA that has the accuracy and firepower to deal with them.

    While there's a million things wrong with most of what dedicated pilots say, they aren't wrong about AA. It's the fastest scaling weapon system in the game.
    Just look at lock-ons: A single one, even two, are practically meaningless. An aircraft can tank them and cruise away to safety, killing a target of opportunity in the process. Bring a 3rd one and you can OHK ESF (however unlikely it is that this succeeds).
    Flak is worse. Flak works on the basis of "spam in their general direction, distance and COF will determine the % of shots that hit". This means that aircraft cannot approach flak weapons without being hit (unless the flak user is a real dummy). Since each additional flak player will deal a minimum amount of damage, you quickly get to a point where an aircraft entering a certain distance will be automatically killed simply because the RNG will determine enough hits and damage to kill them.

    Now most players are complaining about large battles being inaccessible, and that's actually pretty much bullcrap. You do encounter more often enough AA to at least scare them off, but it's just as likely that an entire 96+ battle doesn't feature a single AA source anywhere.
    (un)fortunately these are high-speed aircraft are capable of moving to a small battle with practically no AA in a matter of seconds. Why risk hanging around a large battle where it's more likely someone will grab a dedicated AA weapon, if you can pick a small battle where a single AA gun hampers the team's capability of fighting off the ground attackers? And where the more powerful vehicular based AA won't be available?

    Aircraft shouldn't be able to pick a battle based on the amount of AA. No matter where they go there should be some AA available, simply because it's a good choice for the defenders to have even when there's no aircraft around yet. This means that the AA needs to have different advantages aside from being able to kill aircraft. Think of a simple "it can engage infantry well too!" or by giving AA weapons special capabilities against other units. Example: repeated hits from a Skyguard will eventually lock up the ability of the target vehicle and remove HUD. Walker hits on infantry cause a small concussion effect (20% of the full effect of a concussion grenade), making them easier targets for repeat hits etc.
    Of course AA shoulnd't be dealing damage based on "you came within X distance of AA now you got some damage", it should be based on player skill vs aircraft skill, otherwise it would be a deathblow to the entire air game. And yes, we do need an air game.
  11. Reclaimer77

    That is the exact opposite of a "OHK". I'm not understanding your logic here.

    Basically you are saying that AA is only effective in large numbers, because it SUCKS against it's intended target.

    This is the exact thing AA users have been complaining about for years.
  12. Pelojian

    Everything scales well in numbers, the issue is AA (even ones that cost nanites) does not do well in small quantities as well as infantry and ground vehicles and air is highly effective even in small numbers more then ground vehicles.

    devs need to wake up an realize what they don't want for air is done to infantry and ground vehicles, sometimes by each other, sometimes by air.

    air is not special, if infantry and tanks can be locked out of fights so should air. AV nests need to be taken out by infantry or air, if there is AA around killing air then air should have to rely on infantry and ground vehicles to take out AA nests, if infantry are getting suppressed by ground and air vehicles then they should have to rely on infantry and vehicles counterattacking from another base.

    it's not combined arms when one of the three can ignore it mostly.
    • Up x 3
  13. Movoza

    That is why I hope my proposal offers a way that AA is strong, especially when used well and mitigating the scaling problem.
  14. FateJH

    How exactly does it do that?
    • Up x 1
  15. Scr1nRusher



    The scaling is only a problem for the ones who get "annoyed" by there counter.
  16. Imp C Bravo

    To discuss this point I think you all need to discuss in what way and WHY G2A scales up so much. Then it might be easier to tune other mechanics.
    • Up x 1
  17. FateJH

    That's not really much of a curiosity. When you shoot at one target with multiple sources of incoming firepower it takes damage at an accelerated pace. It's like one TR running headlong into a room of NC that haven't TKed each other yet are watching the door - he will get mowed down quite fast. This is true of all targets and sources in the game. Accumulated firepower is powerful against targets when taken individually. We have assists to organize who shot and whose shot registered last.
    (Han shot first.)
    If there is something to consider, it's that air vehicles normally experience pretty decent TTK. The lone TR's death, whether at the hands of a lone gunman or a firing squad, will feel relatively the same to him - quick. When you compound AA, however, the aircraft has enough health to realize what the accelerated pace feels like because it isn't what it is used to.
    • Up x 1
  18. zaspacer

    They should not raise the skill floor on this game. This is not a boutique game that can run with a 40 players community. It needs a ton of people, it needs the general population of gamers. And it needs for those general population gamers to be effective on the battlefiend. And so it needs to have Reliable, Effective gameplay available to the masses. Not just those who have High Accuracy.

    Rewarding High Accuracy is already terrible in the game. It kills the importance of strategy, situational awareness, surprise, etc. K-Style GunZ is also bad in PS2. And it caters to a small % of the playerbase and to those who use hacks.
  19. ColonelChingles

    The problem is that the "lone" ESF is the only target in the area. You need at least 2 versus 1 for the aircraft to start to be upset. 3 v 1 and it's "hairy". And 4 v 1 to kill.

    Meanwhile a Skyguard and an ESF cost exactly the same and require the same manpower... yet you really need 3-4 Skyguards working together to kill a single ESF.

    As Pelo mentions, this happens to everyone. If I crest a hill in my Skyguard and I find 4 AP Lightnings staring back at me, I am unlikely to walk away from that situation. Same thing if I waltz into a room as an Infiltrator and find 4 shotgun/darklight wielding HA's looking back at me. I'm probably very dead very quick.

    But with aircraft, it's completely possible to fly into those situations and then escape. That's the main problem with AA.

    If we were to balance a 350 nanite 1 person Skyguard against a 350 nanite 1 person ESF, the Skyguard should probably blow up the ESF in short order, as the Skyguard is the dedicated counter to the ESF.
    • Up x 3
  20. Imp C Bravo

    So you are saying that Aircraft don't have incoming fire from multiple sources regularly? Or Do have? Or -- just that if multiple people shoot ANYTHING in the game they die fast?