In Defense of the HA Shield Change

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by Jygal, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. Jygal

    TL;DR: The Heavy's shield was taking it outside of the boundaries of its role and making it over-useful, if not overpowered.

    I've seen a lot of complaining about this lately, and though I can somewhat see why, I think it's really quite a logical alteration.

    Let's contrast the Heavy Assault with the Infiltrator, a class almost its polar opposite. The HA is built around Absorbing Direct Damage; the Infiltrator is built around Ambushing Targets. So let's set up a little test scenario.

    Let's say you have an LMG HA entering the bottom floor of a large building, with an SMG Infiltrator hiding in the corner next to the door, cloaked. Now if things are balanced correctly, then in a situation tailored to a class' strength, that class will outplay another equal-skill player of a different class.

    If we have a balanced Heavy and a balanced Inf, then the Heavy will enter the room, the Infiltrator will uncloak, and the latter will use superior burst damage and surprise to defeat the former, though the heavy will probably still be able to spin and get a few shots off.

    If we have an overpowered Inf, the Heavy will enter the room, the Infiltrator will uncloak, and the cloaker will kill the Heavy from behind without a chance for the Heavy player to react.

    If we have an overpowered Heavy, the Infiltrator will uncloak and be unable to deliver the burst damage to defeat the Heavy's superior Damage Absorption/Mitigation. This should not be the case, because this situation plays to the strength of the Infiltrator, which is ambushing targets. This is, by its very definition, unbalanced. The Heavy is stepping out of its Absorbing Direct Damage role and infringing on the role of the Infiltrator, which is Ambushing Targets.

    While it hasn't been gamebreaking, this is the effect the Heavy Shield has been having on direct encounters. It's not an "i-win" button, but it's tipping the Heavy out of balance in certain situations. But if we got rid of the shield entirely, we'd have a whole different set of problems. Let's set up another theoretical example.

    Let's say you have an LMG HA sprinting through a field, with an SMG Infiltrator behind a tree. The Infiltrator leaps out from behind the tree at mid-range to confront the Heavy. Now if things are balanced correctly, then in a situation tailored to a class' strength, that class will outplay another equal-skill player of a different class.

    If we have an overpowered Heavy, the Infiltrator will be killed after doing no significant damage at all.

    If we have a balanced Heavy and a balanced Inf, then the Heavy will take the first few hits, but use superior damage absorption and a larger health pool to tank the hits and return fire, killing the Infiltrator.

    If we have an overpowered Inf, the Heavy will return fire but still be overcome by his opponent's burst damage. Well, we don't want that, do we? That would be overbalancing the Infiltrator's Ambush role and giving it too much competency at front-line infantry work. This is what would happen if the shield was removed entirely.

    And that's why the solution proposed makes so much sense. A "warm-up" time for the shield forces a more tactical use. In both of the above situations, a skilled Heavy would anticipate an incoming attack and deploy Direct Damage Absorption/Mitigation, just like a skilled Infiltrator picks the time and place to use cloak in anticipation of an ambush situation. It brings the ability more in line with the intended strategic use of abilities in general, and adds more thought and consideration to a rather twitchy shooter. As I said before, I don't think the current shield is gamebreaking, but the new shield is a step more in line with the overall design philosophy.
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  2. Akashar

    I'm all for this if they:
    -Remove the initial cost of the shields.
    -Remove the deplete over time (the visibility and speed malus are enough too stop people using shield all the time)
    As the shield work today (ie 2 aforementionned specificities) it is all designed to be used in reaction, more than anticipation. If you put a warm up time but keep the cost and deplete, you may aswell remove the shield, as you will often find HA with shields depleted, or with no shield at all.

    If they don't want to remove initial cost, they can remove the speed malus, i'm ok with that.
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  3. TheBloodEagle

    I say add what ever activation delay they want but then remove the speed penalty.
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  4. Vivicector

    Well, I usually play infiltrator. However, I was playing HA a lot in CBT. So, decided to test HA out days ago. It is SO easy! Just run, see enemy, pop shield, ADAD, shoot, win. I was only killed by ambushing LAs when I was shooting enemy vehicles. Rly, I almost felt dirty for such cheap infantry kills as HA!

    IMHO, they need to heavily reduce power bleed and activation cost for the shield. It should be offensive ability, not defensive. HA must use it to enter uncleaned buildings or to fight enemies he already noticed, not just pop it up in any engagement.
  5. TheBloodEagle

    ...and on that note, there should be a cloak delay + gunfire delay for Infiltrators. It's too easy for them. :rolleyes:
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  6. Kriegson

    There is. ; ) You might have noticed if you play one.
  7. TheBloodEagle


    Are we playing the same game? I can decloak & shoot at exact same time.
    I'm Alt-Tabbing and doing it right now, over and over.
  8. Vivicector

    There is a delay. Also, you can't use cloak and shoot at the same time. I will be fine, if HAs won't be able to shoot while shielded:cool:
  9. Kriegson

    Hold the fire button on an automatic weapon and hit F to uncloak, it does not start firing immediately.
    Seems you're the only one with this magical ability to immediately de-cloak and fire bloodeagle. Tell us your secrets!
  10. WarmasterRaptor

    He starts uncloaking first and then click to shoots, instead of starting to shoot and then uncloak.

    That's how I do it, and it works like he says.
  11. Kriegson

    That's oversampling. You are telling the game "Shoot now!" and the game will say "OK!" and show you shooting. But the client will register you still as cloaked and not register the shot.

    Just like putting up or lowering your shield on the NC max and firing immediately after, technically your shield is still down/up when the shot hits/is fired so you aren't actually doing anything. Similar to oversampling.

    Thats why I suggest holding fire and de-cloaking, it shows you when you are actually able to start registering firing properly after delcloaking.
  12. WarmasterRaptor

    My client registers hits and a dead body. Seems the other players registers the same.
    But I'll try your situation later today, curious about it. I mean, starting to shoot and then uncloak.
  13. Kriegson

    Because on the same token if you have lower ping it generally takes whatever your client tells the server. IE I run around a corner and see you .5 seconds before you even round the corner and notice me, and I start shooting first. You will die extremely fast and I will seem to have lightning fast reflexes but in actuality I just "loaded" first, essentially.
    You may have seen yourself as hitting me a few times but on my client you died before you could even react, so I'm not even damaged or far less than I should be from your perspective.


    Same thing, if you uncloak in front of someone with better ping and start to fire, you will appear to uncloak and fire slower than you actually did on your end. So you effectively cannot uncloak and fire at exactly the same moment.

    Try running around spamming cloak on and off and firing, it's not an instant transition to being able to fire, a fraction of a second perhaps, but with ping as mentioned earlier it's not effectively anywhere near instant.
    • Up x 1
  14. Rift23

    Good post, but don't say infiltrator unless you want a bunch of hate-spewing ADS bunny-hoppers screaming about your lack of skill. Just say, "anyone who flanks or gets the drop on a HA."
  15. Hiding in VR

    Thats how I feel about the SMG Inf. Well, I wouldn't say "easy" because I am not that good. But easier than HA according to my class performance figures.
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  16. TheBloodEagle


    I said decloak, not cloak & shoot at the time man. It's easy to do. You can fire while it's still in the process of decloaking, which is a big advantage for getting the jump on people. And even if you don't believe me, there still is no significant delay in the same vain as they're trying to delay the HA shield.
  17. TheBloodEagle

    Here I'm not even doing the "oversampling" mentioned where I can shoot while it's still decloaking. Here is decloaking, then firing. Tell me where the delay is in the mechanic.

    [IMG]

    [IMG]
  18. TheBloodEagle

  19. Chazt


    If this were the case I am sure people would be fine with the shield change and I applaud you for the idea. As of right now we have all been conditioned to use the shield as a reactionary tool because it depletes some of your bar just to activate it and keeping it up drains it each second as well. Therefore using it the second you are shot as a reaction is normal to make the most of the shield. If they removed the depletion over time I think you would find more people agreeing with the change. Heavies could keep their shield up without having to worry about wasting it, and encouraging them to use it prior to entering, while other classes would be able to see right away that the heavies shield is up before combat starts eliminating the "ace up my sleeve" feel to it and be able to feel confidant they could eliminate a heavy before he could react with his shield should he catch him unaware. If they removed the initial cost and depletion over time the heavy would overall get a buff in the "duration" of the shield and a nerf to the hidden power people feel so ripped off about. You would never be able to complain about a surprise heavy shield again because you would know right off the bat what you were getting in to when you saw him, plus he lights up like a christmas tree, and having the on all the time is like saying "hey shoot me!" another detriment would make it so it does not regenerate at all while it is active (exception being killing with adrenaline shield)

    I will say that if this happens they should NOT remove the speed penalty to the heavy while using the shield, buffing the overall effectiveness while losing he "surprise!" element is more than enough and the speed penalty would make people feel inclined to keep it off when not inthe middle of a battle.

    Tl;dr:
    + Heavies shield is more effective overall with no start up cost (would probably be about one more bullet from most guns)
    + Does not lose energy for staying active
    - Movement speed penalty while active to prevent keeping on
    - "Wind up time" to prevent surprise or last second activation
    - Does not regenerate while active, encouraging people with low shield to turn itoff to let it fill.
  20. Chazt


    Continuation of the above (didn't want to make a huge long winded post just to add a side note): So after discussing some of these and bouncing some ideas of some friend of mine the main worry I got was "If all shield don't lose energy over time what is the point of picking different shield types? This is a good worry to be sure as some things like resist shield are known for having long durations and more resistance at the cost of being an something you would activate beforehand to make the most out of it. So here is what I have come up with for each on, tried to stick with what we currently have now for the most part.

    Nanite Mesh Generator: Standard shield, provides 700 point health "shield" (not going to guess how much the removal of an activation cost would add), leveling decreases time it takes to recharge when inactive

    Resist shield: Decreases overall damage taken by 50%, while it numerically adds more overall effective health, it does not add any sort of buffer between you and the enemy, so if you are at low health it will not make an effective ward like a normal shield would. Does not deplete.

    Adrenaline Shield: While functioning the same way as the nmg the adrenaline shield is capable of regenerating its shield by killing enemies. While this allows it to have high uptime in an enemy rich environment with a good player it has extremely slow regeneration time (equal to the first rank of nanite mesh) when inactive to make up for it.

    Conclusions: On average most automatic weapons do around 150 damage on a per bullet basis. This means on it would take seven shots to kill a 1000 health target with one of these weapons not accounting for headshots.

    Nanite Mesh Generator and Adrenaline shield: 1700 health total: 12 shots

    Resist shield: Damage resisted by 50% obviously would take twice the amount 2000 health or 14 shots

    As you can see this is pretty much the same thing as we currently have. Resist shield is overall the most effective on a per bullet basis, but Adrenaline has the possibility of be the most underperforming or the most powerful with NMG being a middle ground. The only real difference is resist shield has lost some overall power in comparison. This is due to the fact that both the nmg and adrenaline shield would lose overall effectiveness for every second they drained, where resist would always be a flat resistance amount no matter how much juice was left.
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