I'm calling it. Upcoming Vanguard Shield Nerf.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by teks, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. deggy

    There are only four places in the game the Mag can go that the other tanks (the Lightning especially, that thing is surprisingly agile in close quarters) simply cannot get to (without Galaxy airlifts of course).

    Those four places are as follows:

    The top of Vanu Archives
    The top of Scarred Mesa
    The inside of one of the Amerish facilities, C point especially (I don't remember what it's called)
    The inside of The Octagon

    Now, wanna know a secret?

    One of those places is a one-way trip. Taking a Magrider into the Octagon is literally killing it. There's no way out. And it's not going to be engaging enemy armor there because there is none.

    The other three:
    C point at the Amerish place. Hello, meet my C4, which you literally do not have room to evade because we're in close quarters.
    Scarred Mesa. Lulzy? Yes. Useful? No. What exactly am I going to do up there, especially against other tanks? I can't aim far enough down to hit things on the road.
    Vanu Archives. Meh, you have access to about 50 square feet of walkway, and if you turn wrong you die to physics.

    So my challenge to you: Show me one place the Magrider can get to that provides it with a noticeable advantage in tank combat. Note that I didn't say "farming infantry". I said actual armor fights.
  2. WTSherman

    Again, watch the video and tell me with a straight face that Magrider did not have an advantage against those prowlers.

    The side of that hill it was on is completely inaccessible to the Vanguard, Prowler, and Lightning. Those three tanks would have been forced to go around the other side of the hill, where they could not get to those Prowlers without pushing through a swarm of infantry. For the Magrider, as you can see for yourself, this was no obstacle. This is the cliff to the west of Broken Arch Road, and I guarantee you that no Vanguard could climb it in a million years. A Vanguard would have to go all the way up to Crossroads Watchtower and turn around, pushing through the entire enemy zerg along the way.

    In fact, it's a close call but even the slope where it engages the Sunderer at 5:45 may be steep enough that if a Vanguard had tried to go that far forward, it would have slid down right into it and gotten mauled by HAs. The Magrider was instead able to destroy the Sunderer and quickly reverse up the hill before the HAs could reload. That sounds like an advantage to me.

    On Amerish it's even more severe, with all those mountains everywhere. The Mag can likely traverse most of them with ease, the Vanguard and Prowler? Not so much. Amerish in general is Magrider paradise.

    Then there's the area around Dahaka, where the numerous hills and ridges funnel most tanks onto the roads. The Magrider? Pffffft.


    (I actually have gotten a Vanguard onto the plateau ~4 minutes in, though I needed Racer 3 and there was only one specific corner much further East where it would work, while a Magrider can just hop up there any time, from any side)

    Your deliberate misrepresentation of your tank's capabilities is a disservice to the game. I suppose you like to imagine that your supreme skill lets you (and the entire VS faction, apparently) perform well in a horribly UP tank, but the truth is that the Magrider is actually fairly balanced. You just refuse to admit what its strengths are while exaggerating its weaknesses.
    • Up x 1
  3. teks

    ^this^
    This isn't a thread demanding a vanguard nerf. This thread was just bringing attention to what may be a potential change to the shield. There is no need to be so defensive, or abrasive. I'm VS, and I made this thread, and I'm perfectly happy with the shield as it is, but I feel its important to stay on top of upcoming changes, and the responses here revealed how sweeping these 'minor' changes are going to be.Hopefully its good stuff, and not a bunch of nerfs.
  4. Sebastien

    I think there's 2 places a Vanguard can get up there from. One is on the North side by the spawnpad, the other is on the East side, which is fairly open.
  5. Flag

    I've seen prowlers and vanguards on that ridge a fair few times, so it can't be that hard to get them up there.
    Sometimes going up there to challenge TR and NC tanks is what makes me go up there at all.
    I'll admit it's one of the things I've not gotten around to try myself in those two tanks, so I'll have to take your word for it.
  6. Aesir

    Vanguards in general are probably the best tracked Vehicle for crossing hard terrain because of the track design, not to mention that the rear has about ~10% more hill climb than the front. So if you can't climb it with your front and the situation allows it, climbing with the rear is an alternative.

    The other thing is the long hull, it allows us to tilt our tracks to grab stuff you otherwise couldn't with a Prowler. And we are slim enough to fit through things a Prowler or Magrider would be to fat, seriously, get you tanks on a diet!

    This was my first time trying to get into a Tech Plant, stopping time on a recent try I manged to get to the high balcony in about a minute and I no longer need a Lightning as a ramp, since I now know where I can tilt the hull to grab the railing there.



    Physics work very weird in this game and it is possible to climb anything if you reach sufficient speed. It was in fact possible to get a Vanguard up on scared mesa skydock, without Galaxy help, but through use of Rival, since Rival had no reverse speed limit you can reach 150+ in a Vanguard down step hills. Though it's very hard and I needed to sacrifice about 15 Vanguards, it is possible.

    The margin for error is practically zero as we can not maintain that speed, like Magburner and instead you need to relay on the bugged reverse of the Vanguard. Take this with a grain of salt, I last put on a maxed Rival over half a year ago to test this and I have no picture or video proof, nor am I interesting in testing this again. It's merely to proof the point that anything that can reach the sufficient momentum can go any place a Magrider can go.

    Harassers and Flash's with turbo also were or are still able to reach up there, it's less about the hover and more about just having enough momentum.
    • Up x 2
  7. Slandebande

    A Vanguard and Prowler can fight at the hills near the Sundy perfectly well if you control your movements correctly, the hill isn't even that steep. In fact, that hill has been dubbed the "peter2-hill" by my crew, as one of the resident VG crews of Miller seemingly enjoys that hill alot. I've also used it in all three MBTs and I have no problems there. I cannot traverse the backwards cliffs leading down to Tawrich (and to an extent Broken Arch) of course, but on the other sides it is perfectly traversable.

    I don't see how the area around Dahaka funnels you onto the road, I generally avoid open roads and I move around just fine there. It may funnel most of the bads along the roads, but I don't feel inclined to follow them. Also, I have personally climbed onto that specific plateau using a Rival 2 VG quite a while ago.

    I do think the maneuverability of the Magrider is usable, but not to the extent you are implying, just like I don't agree it is worthless like others are implying. I'm more on the middle-ground there, so to speak.
    • Up x 2
  8. deggy

    Any tank can farm bads, and the video is no exception. I didn't even see a Shield go up on any of the victims.

    When are we going to learn that montage clips are not balance evidence?
    • Up x 1
  9. Flag

    The mobility is certainly usable, but would you say that it's up to par compared to the raw advantages the other factions get (damage/velocity/durability)?
  10. WTSherman

    The purpose of those videos is to demonstrate that the Magrider's mobility is a lot more than "getting up a shallow slope slightly faster". It is the most reliable all-terrain vehicle in the game, bar none. A Harasser with turbo has comparable hill-climbing ability, but is also much more prone to flipping and traction failure. There's numerous other differences of course (strafing, size, main gun, armor, top forward speed), but climbing, traction, and flipping are the important factors for navigating hills and rough terrain.

    If you don't understand how a tank benefits from having the high ground, especially in a game where they're all armed with potato cannons, the problem with your tank in particular may be somewhere between the chair and the keyboard.
  11. deggy

    But as others have said, other tanks can get to those locations. And they can do it with more damage and higher shell velocity, meaning they'll be more effective once they're there.

    Flanking is not unique to the Magrider. Other tanks can do it just fine. Flanking is just all the Magrider can do.
  12. WTSherman

    Even in cases where that's true, the Magrider gets up there faster and with much less praying to the RNG. The Magrider also has more avenues of approach and can access a larger portion of the hillcrest, where in many cases the Prowler or Vanguard will only have one or two specific locations where they can slowly scratch their way up, and only a small area at the top where they can park without sliding down.

    Quartz Ridge is a good example of a situation where even though both tanks can get on the Eastern hill overlooking it, only a small flat spot is accessible to tracked tanks and that requires climbing in a very specific place. If you're ballsy enough to go all the way through Hvar Northgate, you *might* be able to make it to a second, higher plateau before someone rolls up and shoots you in the rear. A Magrider could access any part of that hill while also actively using it as cover without having to worry about sliding down. A good Magrider might even be able to climb the West hill, which is completely inaccessible to tracked vehicles.

    The Magrider also isn't limited to a choice between the Quartz-Hvar road and the East Quartz valley for advancing on Hvar Northgate and Hvar proper: it can go East to climb the cliffs next to Allatum Research or West and climb the cliffs bordering Hvar/Hvar Watchtower.

    The hill NE of West Highlands Checkpoint can also be absolutely dominated by Magriders as long as the VS controls Seabed Listening Post. I've gotten a Lightning and Vanguard up there, but there was only one way up and once there I had to balance the tank precariously on a point. The only way to take cover was to slide all the way down to the bottom of the hill again. A Magrider could simply cling to the slope, ducking in and out whenever it wants, or follow the ridge north to an otherwise-inaccessible plateau that would give them a good view of both West Highlands and Indar Comm.

    And of course, in general all of SE Indar and all of Amerish are huge playgrounds for Magriders.

    The Magrider doesn't just flank, it flanks better than any other tank. And anywhere there's a steep slope it can cling to that slope to stop you from chasing it, allowing it to completely control the terms of engagement. That's its strength.

    Just like the Prowler spams shells better than any other tank, and the Vanguard eats shells better than any other tank.
    • Up x 1
  13. Snow Sheltie

    I swear to God the people who complain about vanguard shields surviving two blocks of C4 never used the bloody tank to begin with. Two C4 will break a vanguard shield. The tank will also have about 50% of its health left. Still alive but hurting.

    Go ahead and create an NC soldier, go into VR training, pull out a vanguard battle tank with shields, set two C4 on it, get back in, turn the shields on, hop out, and detonate the C4 while the shields are still up. You will see that the shield can be broken.

    Vanguard shields can and do break under enough firepower.
    • Up x 1
  14. Qaz




    He's right though. Other tanks explode from two c4, while the shield lets you survive it in a van. Also, it is unbreakable for all intents and purposes in 1v1 situations, unless the vanguard doesn't turn it's rear away.
  15. WTSherman

    Actually, since the TTK of a 2/2 AV tank (including a Magrider, due to the Saron) against a Vanguard's front is somewhere between 8 and 9 seconds, they can drop the shield in about 6. So only the first two ranks of the shield (5 seconds and 6 seconds respectively) are "essentially unbreakable". This also means if you keep firing, you basically never have to face more than a rank 2 shield (though higher ranks do have a shorter cooldown). Attacking from the side or rear of course will cut down both the time you need to drop the shield and the time you need to kill the tank underneath.

    And since the shield *does* have an HP limit, the amount of time it takes to break is actually more relevant to its effectiveness than its base duration. A longer duration just gives you some room to pop the shield early and still let it absorb as much damage as it can handle. Keep in mind that at a bare minimum, the shield needs to extend the Vanguard's life for at least 4 seconds (its reload time) in order to be useful at all.
  16. Qaz

    What i meant was that firing on the shield is disadvantageous, even if you manage to break it, as it will result in your weapons being stuck in a reload cylce that lasts longer than the 8 seconds you'd have to wait anyway. Add the vanguard potentially firing on you while the shield is up to that equation, and the shield is "virtually" unbreakable in my book, or at least, firing on it is not advisable unless you outnumber the vanguard or it's too stupid to turn its rear away.

    P.S. This is a mag-centric assessment.
    • Up x 2
  17. Slandebande

    I think there are cases where it is, and cases where it can almost be a hindrance, at least it isn't as clear-cut as with a straight up armor or dps advantage that the other two factions have. Usually it is just fluff, but there have been times where the mobility have saved us, specifically the ability to traverse cliffs horizontally, whereas the other two tanks can practically only move straight up/down without slipping into oblivion :p By saved I don't only mean enabling us to escape, but also to avoid their firing angle (and LOS) and take advantage of Stealth to sneak up on them.
  18. Flag

    So how about giving me a yes/no answer? :p
    From the looks of things it's a no.

    To clarify, I'm not asking if it can make a difference (ofc it does, everything makes a difference in the end), but rather if it is on par with what the other two gets.
  19. wickedhell3

    the vanguard shield can stay(my own opinion) under 2 conditions:
    open rear of the vanguard shield, so that you can at least have its weak-spot in the open.
    and above all: no repair possible when using the shield, this is what i find the most irritating above all.
  20. Shockwave44

    Not good enough.