If "vehicle nerfs" are supposed to make the game "better"...

Your balancing logic is so F*cked up.

You would NEVER nerf AP if HEAT & HE are doing bad.

You would BUFF HE & HEAT.

Its logical!

If 2 out of 3 Tank cannon types are NOT VIABLE you don't nerf the one tank cannon type that is viable(and that tankers have been pigeonholed into).

Since HE and HEAT are so bad i treat them like humiliation weapons against the enemy (kinda like a viper lightning killing a 1/2 MBT, both targets start the fight at 100% with no rear hit ambush advantage). It's more satisfying killing an enemy AP tank with HEAT then with AP after all they have the ttk advantage in theory.

HEAT and HE are only useful for auraxium/directive progress and HE is if you can't aim precisely at infantry or just want easy infantry kill mode for a while.

ever thik population drops are cause from the game itself not vehicles or anthing else for that matter but the game itself? look at it this way you raise your Battle rank and unlock items but what happens once thats done..... nothing at all you just keep doing the same thing you did before you unlocked everything.

At any rate it can't be said that nerfing tanks raised PS2 populations... that's for sure.

Attributing the decline in population to the tank nerf is more difficult, because there could be many reasons for it. Nonetheless, usually if we observe a significant change immediately following a patch, it is normal to attribute that change to the patch.

That's not how balancing works. In proper balance testing/conceptualization, the focus is (generally) not on the change, but on the desired outcome(s). You mix-and-match in testing/conceptualization until you reach the configuration that gets the outcome you want (or best out of the choices).

I'm not saying in this case that the correct solution isn't to just buff HE and HEAT. But it might be something different, like changing (nerf + buff) AP to be less AI and more AV.

What if you changed HEAT to have the stats of the current AP, then AP changed to have better AV and worse AI, and HE was buffed to improve the AV some? This would make HEAT the all-purpose gun, and give AP more of an AV focus, and HE would be more appealing (without being an OP problem on the AI side).

Do you want a game where Tanks have just one Ammo Type, used by players across engagement types (some definitely do)? Or do you want a game where Tanks are choosing their gun based on they type of play they will be focusing on?

HE is not being used as much as HEAT or AP. But HEAT comes free. Among higher level BR, most players use AP.

This "once choice" Loadout is common among Units in PS2. And even for the Units that do use multiple Loadout options, they often have some that are not used at all. This is a big issue for PS2 in much more than just Tanks.

Tanks are popular, so that's definitely a reason not to nerf them (don't mess with something fun). Tanks are not widely regarded as being either OP or unfun to play against (many people like having/fighting Tanks on the battlefield, another plus), both reasons not to nerf them. On the flip side, Tanks are arguably comfortably at the top of the food chain, which gives reason not to buff them. And Tanks have historically been a tweak away from being OP, which is a reason not to (or be careful to) buff them.

Tanks are not being used in SS or (serious) Hardcore Organized Play, this is a HUGE reason to buff them. Though it's important to note that the buff/change should be in a way relevant to SS/HOP: buff Tanks for SS, or change SS so Tanks are more used.

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I just explained what needs to happen,

Which is HE & HEAT need buffs.

HEAT would become useless as a general purpose selection due to crappy splash radius that it would inherit from AP, HE would become the only weapon to take for splash damage and nerfing AP's AI power that requires a direct hit will only make infantry vs tank balance even worse.

The only thing AP has going for it vs infantry is the OHK potential, making it require two shot kill or more is only nerfing tanks for the sake of reckless infantry.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion. Populations dropped like a rock immediately after release. Right when you say the game felt "most alive" was when they were already merging servers.

Of course games bleed players over time. PS2 was gushing like a slashed jugular after the first month.

Well, do you have specific buffs in mind? It's silly for me to take a specific side when I don't know what the sides are.

This makes 0 sense. If future HEAT became current AP, then future HEAT would inherit all the users of current AP: the majority of higher level players.

People would pick future HEAT for all the reason they pick current AP... cause they would be the same thing.

So you're saying people would choose HE when they wanted to do AI... how is that bad exactly?

The current AP would still exist... it would be the future HEAT. If you want current AP, you'd just pick future HEAT. You are not losing the current AP. You are just getting a new gun that is EVEN BETTER at AV and worse at AI.

Current AP would not be nerfed. If would only be a name change, as the current AP would have its stats conferred onto future HEAT. Then, future AP would change to be more aggressive as AV.

This would make:
AP = strong AV, weak AI
HEAT = moderate AV, moderate AI
HE = weak AV, strong AI

ill have you know when i get combined arms i mass produce panzers and hellzerg that ***** catherine for taking all my oil nodes n ****.

its always russia that gets all the oil endgame too

If HEAT were changed to HEAT v2 with no splash, nobody would use it if AP v2 had OHK ability on infantry.

Your idea of balance is nerfing HEAT and AP AI power to unnecessarily buff tank vs tank gameplay, when tank vs tank gameplay is not the problem.

The problem is HEAT and HE were nerfed on a promise of a lethality nerf to infantry AV.

Your suggestion leaves HEAT even less useful for an increase in AP vehicle damage which is not needed.

With your idea of balance there would only be two choices for tanks: AP or HE.

HEAT is a generalist weapon, not as good as AP at AV, not as good as HE at AI It's designed to do ok at both. removing splash will just make it a worse version of AP. If a player has a choice of two near identical weapons with the only difference being a few points of damage they will take the higher damage version. That is exactly why if you got your way no-one would ever use HEAT v2 unless they haven't unlocked AP v2

in a game where you get so much data prior to engagement, "generalist" weapons like HEAT are just not going to perform unless they are OP. Because of the way tanks work in this game, HE is largely useless too because even though it beats AP for AI fights, those infantry aren't really a threat at the ranges you can engage from.

What they can do to fix the balance is simple, make a vehicle interactive terminal to switch weapons so when the situations occur that you want HE you can pull it, and remove HEAT from the game because it serves no purpose, it never did except when it was 95% effective HE and AP (aka OP)

HEAT v2 would be AP v1. So if people moved to the NEW AP v2, that means they would be moving to a gun that was LIKED MORE than the current AP. How can Tankers complain about that?

AP v2 would be considerably worse vs. Infantry. Maybe it would not have OHK, maybe it would just be much slower reload, smaller Mag, Smaller Ammo, etc. But it would be noticeably inferior at AI than current AP v1.

HEAT v2 would become the same as AP v1. So it's not nerfing HEAT because AP v1 is the top MBT gun. It would BE that gun. Players switching to HEAT v2 would be using the same gun as AP v1.

It's just that it moves the most balanced AP/AI gun to the HEAT name: which is the multi-purpose gun.

This is not a negotiation. Not a "*** for tat". This is an overhaul to improve the playability of Loadout options.

Tanks WOULD KEEP CURRENT AP... y'know, the one Top Tankers actually use already all the time. It would just have it's name changed to HEAT. Then AP v2 would be adjust to give a STRONGER AV weapon that had some AI limits.

How is this not a win for Tankers? They keep their current "best gun", and they get to add 2 new guns that maybe even more appealing.

HEAT v2 would BE AP v1. Most top players use AP v1. How is making HEAT v2 = AP v1 making it less useful?

What I am doing is moving the all-purpose gun to the HEAT name. So that it can open up the AP v2 and HE v2 to be then become changed to be more niche weapons.

1) if people had 2 choices for main gun, it would be more than they have now

2) HEAT v2 = AP v1... and nobody chose it... then people would be choosing and using guns that are preferred to the current favorite gun now. How can Tankers decline a proposal to play with guns BETTER than what they have now?

I am making HEAT v2 the EXACT SAME as AP v1. That makes it EQUAL to AP v1.

In my version (which would have to be tested and tweaked), the new AP v2 would be considerably less effective vs. Infantry. You probably wouldn't want to drive into a crowded enemy Infantry area without some support... but it would tear up Ground Vehicles.

Again, you would KEEP AP av1 (renamed to HEAT v2), you would just get an improved HE (at AV) and a more powerful AV option.

Because in the original trade tankers lost their HE and HEAT cannons, in exchange for infantry AV nerfs. The infantry AV nerfs never came.

What you are suggesting is normalizing the status quo, okay-ing the broken contract where tankers got shafted, and this is unacceptable.

What would be "fair" is to either:
1) Revert tank cannons back to pre August 4 status and not touch infantry AV options.
or
2) Keep current tank cannons and nerf infantry AV options.

Your suggestion essentially forces tankers to eat their nerfed AI weapons while not touching infantry AV at all, which goes against the promise that was made to tankers.

It's a loss because we have no problem with our power vs other vehicles. you want to remove HEAT's splash damage which is useful against infantry for a marginal increase in damage for AP.

Your idea of balancing AP, HEAT and HE isn't based around making HE and HEAT more popular it's about nerfing tank cannon again so you get killed less by tanks as infantry.

Tanks have no problem against vehicles the issue is HE and HEAT pretty much suck for AI work unless you can't aim really well.

HEAT is for general use against infantry and tanks, splash is an important part of defense for tanks. if you can't hit someone directly that is taking pot shots at you currently you can use the splash to damage, deter or kill with successive shots. removing the splash would make it just a worse AP cannon.

It's a generalist weapon for general use against both tanks and infantry any reduction in splash shifts HEAT from generalist into useless AV cannon which is surpassed by current AP.

1) you are not even a Tanker. So you should no speak for themselves if they are unhappy

2) as I said, there is not "bargaining" on balance. OP Banshee users didn't give up the Banshee in exchange for a buff to Rocket Pods. Hey just lost the OP Banshee.

The only thing Infantry is OP in is SS/Hardcore Organized Play. This is primarily due to Game/SS Scoring Objectives and Infantry Mobility. SS/Hardcore Organized Play political group is probably the most powerful lobby group in the game, and they fiercely fight every attempt to curtail the Organized Infantry power.

I am proposing buffing Tank options, and you don't want Tankers and the rest of the game to have that. Instead, you want to improve Casual Tankers ability to farm Infantry in the Casual game.

I don't think the game benefits from having better ways to farm. In fact, most the OP/Miserable gameplay in PS2's past have been related to OP farming.

A "promise" by the guys who don't run SOE anymore? There should be no "promises", other than that they game will be improved.

Tanks vs. Infantry in the Standard game is FINE. Tanks are top of the food chain. Tanks are used a lot, with great results, and you see them all over the battlefield.

1) lol he is a tanker and is surprisingly knowledgeable about tanks and military hardware and is primarily a lightning operator. compared to you: little over a month with the supernova FPC who should people trust to know more about tanks and balance?

2) there is a difference between the developers nerfing something because it is too powerful and developers posting balance changes in phases stating that Tank cannons would be nerfed in phase one and infantry av being nerfed in phase two as a part of a larger excess lethality pass.

see this was never about buffing tanks. Tankers don't want harder hitting AP they want HEAT and HE that are actually useful against infantry. This is about you not wanting to get killed by splash damage when you were exposed to tank fire.

He is the guy who said "my unit is infantry". He said it's bad because he is on the "other side" (aka Infantry) and calling for buffs on Tanks. I don't care if he is a Tanker or not, but if he is, then he shouldn't say he isn't.

I am not a Tanker. But I am a designer, and I am trying to go for balance.

Most people just want their stuff buffed. They want to have more advantages than their opponent. Not me. I want balance.

I can appreciate that experience using a Unit is very powerful. But it's not essential to all balancing. And if a person is just pushing for boosting their units power, then their experience just works to unsettle balance because they are pushing for that imbalance.

I can appreciate players want developers to be honest in their plans. I am in no way condoning SOE/DBG's communication.

But I can't see incorporating bad changes just because they were mentioned.

As a side issue, AV Mana Turret was nerfed. Implants were added to make seeing Mines easier. (some) A2G vs. Vehicles was nerfed. There were changes. Aren't these AV changes?

If Tankers are happy with the AV of their guns now, then leave em as is. Plenty of other groups and areas that want their stuff changed in ways that don't mean farming Infantry.

Buffing Tank guns to be better at Farming Infantry is just bad for the game.

HEAT is not being used by experienced players.


BR100 Average Uniques

==================

Supernova PC + Titan-150 HEAT + P2-120 HEAT................15%
Supernova FPC + Titan-150 AP + P2-120 AP......................71%
Supernova VPC + Titan-150 HE + P2-120 HE......................14%


My suggestion is to have Tankers keep their current most popular gun (AP v1), and then get an HE v1 with AV buff and a AP v1 with AP buff and AI nerf.


If you just want to be able to farm more Infantry with your Vehicle, then you are stuck in the past. Old PS2 made units that farmed Infantry until they were nerfed: driving off lots of players and disrupting the game. If you only want to have buffs that improve Infantry Farming, then you get nothing or you might cycles of buff/nerf as they buff it to become too disruptive, and then it gets nerfed.

I am not proposing nerfing any Tank Cannon. You can:

* Buff HE v2's AV to current HEAT v1. This makes for a gun better than HE v1 or HEAT v2. That is not a nerf.

* Keep current AP v1 (just renamed to Heat v2)

* Get a new gun in AP v2 that is superior at AV but is nerfed vs. Infantry

Tanks are incredibly lethal vs. Infantry in the Standard Casual game. The have been terrible for the game in the past when they had buffed levels of AI. There is no reason to buff Tanks against Infantry in the Standard Casual Game.

How about just changing the Tank Gun Splash to work only in very close ranges? This would give Tanks better defense but not give them better tools at riskless Farming.

AP is the generalist weapon for general use. It is use 70% by BR 100. That makes the other 2 niche use. Even the Magrider which plays as a CQC vehicle uses the AP gun the most.

If PS2 stays a game where players lobby for what they want, each pushing to get preferential treatment and buffs, and Devs follow this thinking, then PS2 will remain down the same road it's been on. If PS2 changes to a game that Devs rebalance/overhaul to provide more balanced and more options for different gameplay that appeal to broader demographics of players, then it will be something different and appeal to more people.

DBG's recent balance changes and additions I think have been very impressive. It gives me much improved hope for the game's future playability.

I am a tanker... and also primarily an infantry player.

How can that be?

Because almost all tankers are also primarily infantry players!

True there might be some people who spend over 50% of their time in a tank... but you certainly don't have to do that to be a "tanker". Otherwise EE, Alarox, or Calisai wouldn't be "tankers" and that would be just silly!

That's why it's hilarious when infantryside players yell at tankers to leave their tanks and experience what infantry experience. We already do, most of the time actually. We know exactly what it feels like to play as infantry.

The problem is of course that infantry has no equivalent time in tanks or other combat vehicles. Most of the infantryside players I've looked up have extremely low percentages of time that they have in a combat vehicle (as in the one from the original quote, who played infantry 95% of the time). That's why those players can't be trusted to discuss balance, because unlike "tankers" they are usually unbalanced players!

AP is the specialist AV cannon.
HEAT is the generalist by design good at neither AI or AV both passable.
HE is the specialist AI cannon.

Your 'balance' is making AP hit harder which no tanker wants or needs, while nerfing HEAT so it has no splash at all destroying it's design as non-specialized cannon. your a designer you claim so you should understand something's designed purpose>top tier player usage stats.

usage stats for BR100 are irrelevant when considering the designed purpose of HEAT which is passable at AI and AV and not being great at one or the other like HE or AP. it's meant to do ok to both of them and splash is a part of it that makes it ok at AI work.

And yet here you are asking for a pointless nerf to HEAT and a useless minor increase in damage for AP jsut so you die less to tanks as infantry instead of trying to counter them as infantry or with vehicles.

see following YTD stats AP is not overused more then HEAT.

Start Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 10:00:00 GMT | End Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 10:00:00 GMT

3400 - Supernova PC | Uniques | Daily Average: 966.97
3700 - Titan-150 HEAT | Uniques | Daily Average: 1162.58
4000 - P2-120 HEAT | Uniques | Daily Average: 1350.13
3460 - Supernova FPC | Uniques | Daily Average: 843.55
3730 - Titan-150 AP | Uniques | Daily Average: 1064.28
4008 - P2-120 AP | Uniques | Daily Average: 1099.80
3461 - Supernova VPC | Uniques | Daily Average: 185.34
3731 - Titan-150 HE | Uniques | Daily Average: 118.75
4009 - P2-120 HE | Uniques | Daily Average: 178.84