If "vehicle nerfs" are supposed to make the game "better"...

Then why have the pops dropped over time?

Scrin, lemme go over a quick piece of medical knowledge real quick

People die
People die quicker when they have diseases
Cancer could be considered a disease
Cancer kills people
Cancer is often used to describe internet posts and people
The word is Cancerous
This post gave me Cancer
You are Cancerous Scrin
You are killing people playing this game
Holy ******* **** i did it ma

Everyone & everything has a breaking point.

Lets start with the toes and work our way up.


Now, rather then focus on the topic you rather attack me. Pathetic.

That's the thing.

If the problem was explosive spam, whatever you might have done to vehicles was more than made up for in explosive spam in frag grenades.



And really the problem was never vehicles... because the evidence shows that the greatest chuckers of explosives out there are infantry, not vehicles.



That's why DBG needs to seriously consider carrying out the second half of their promise and to nerf infantry AV options (or buff vehicle AV resistance) to reestablish the longer TTKs that they were seeking.

Another Scr1n thread?

kay.

He keeps posting because he doesn't want the mothership to say to him "welcome back foreman" ever again and he doesn't want to reformat it ether.

Average TTK on Infantry vs Infantry in their optimal range is .48s. - Man to Man sized targets.

Average TTK (assuming default launcher vs MBT) on vehicles by infantry is 31.2s. - Man to Vehicle sized targets.

TTK for MBT vs Infantry varies by empire and if there is a direct hit or not. Can be instant on direct hit, mostly will be 3-4 seconds. Vehicle to Man sized targets.

With those numbers known, what the heck does everyone want? Seriously, why is everyone arguing about nerfing or buffing at this point? The reasoning is you all take each other far too personally. Half this thread is attacking the OP personally without even having a debate. So what if its another thread by him, if you think its wrong, click report and move on. But no you all can't do that, you've got to get your dig in like some juvenile middle schooler.

Lets go back a bit further and discuss the cause rather than the symptoms of the Vehicle vs Infantry debates. Why do tankers hate AV and why do Infantry hate vehicles?

Tankers hate AV because its easily accessible and can be fired in mass. Every infantryman is a threat.
Infantry hate Tanks(vehicles) because its easily accessible and can be pulled in mass. Tanks require AV weapons to take down.

Very similar issues. And not easily fixed. Here's why.

This is a MMOFPS. Meaning we've got a lot of people playing at any given time. We also do no force people to play one way or another. As much as I'd like to force everyone out of thoughtless zergings. That won't happen. Just like we're not going to see Tanks or AV restricted harshly.

Players ought to pull what they want to pull at any given time. That's how its been. That's how it is. That's how it will be. And that's about how it should be. There's no reason a guy who logins shouldn't be able to pull what they want. Regardless of how I feel about that, its how Daybreak feels about it. Its set in stone. Its the law of the land.

That doesn't mean we can't work around it. It doesn't mean we have to nerf or buff shtuff. We just need to find the source of the malcontent.

Why will a BR100 with Directive Armor on his MBT sit outside a spawn room and camp it? I mean seriously, why would someone do this?

1. He wants to play a tank instead of getting out and getting on point.
2. Has nothing else to do with his tank.

Number 1 isn't a bad think. He's earned his right to play the crap out of that tank. Probably rocking the directive cosmetics too. He's certed the thing out and well.. wants to be rewarded for his months of hard work. Why should he 'play something else' just to make his opponents feel better? Screw what the opponents think. Its PVP, he's there to stuff their faces in, and rightfully should.

Number 2 is where the problem is. What else is he going to do? If the opponents pull back to their spawn rooms and shoot out from it while his team caps their base, instead of redeploying and pulling their own vehicles. What is he supposed to do?

That...

A. Doesn't require him to get out of the tank.
B. Doesn't require him to split off from his squad or platoon.
C. Doesn't require him to sit bored somewhere.

I have a comprehensive solution that will alleviate this issue. It requires a base overhaul on all three continents. Some bases maybe easier than others. But in the end, it has to be done in order to make Vehicle to Infantry play more interesting.

This is to add destructible elements to the bases. These are walls, bridges, ceilings, floors, tunnels, generators, gates, and doors. These would be strategically placed at every base to allow the defenders a means to mount an effective counter attack, slow down and contain attackers, and generally be a nuisance to attackers that they will be wont to ignore. While on the other end, destruction of such elements gives the attackers better avenues of attack, makes defenders more vulnerable, or hinders their movement to important locations in the base.

These elements would be resistant to infantry attack (including grenades, C4, mines, and rockets). Pretty much requiring vehicles to take them down. However taking the base would NOT require taking these elements down, but it would be significantly more difficult from a dugin defender if ignored. These elements would be repairable, but doing such places the repairing units in harms way while doing so.

Thus vehicles that are not involved in infantry transport would be integral to base assaults. In addition they would be consigned to the destruction of base elements instead of the spawn. I would even recommend moving spawns to internal locations, with the elements allowing them ease of access to the rest of the base, with their destruction making it perilous to leave the spawn room.

What will happen is during base assaults, vehicles will come at a base enmasse and be slowed down while they work on the base elements to allow the attackers the quickest avenues (and the defenders the slowest), This gives defenders time to work out a method to deal with the attacker's spawns, and to mount a counter attack with their own vehicles (not doing so at their own risk).

This way infantry are working on fighting other infantry. Tanks and vehicles are working on the base itself and each other.

1. Tankers get to continue to tank.
2. Infantry based players get to fight infantry.*
3. Tankers get to worry about fighting more vehicles and less about AV**

*The bases would be designed so that infantry inside are primarily fighting just infantry, with walls and ceilings blocking most vehicular fire. Of course once elements are destroyed (not every wall or ceiling will be capable of taking damage), some of those protections will be lost. However control points will be mostly covered. If such protection is lost, then care will be needed in such areas.

**AV will still be a concern, but with most infantry oriented players wishing to deal with contenders inside the base, there should be less AV fielded.

In both situations, open fields will still be the nasty things they are currently. Infantry oriented players will want to seek transport or stealthy means of getting into a base. Logistics is a thing to be considered at all times. While vehicle oriented players will wish to use combined arms in open fields between bases like they do currently.

The suggestion only covers bases assaults/fortifications. Where the majority of gameplay takes place. Open fields are supposed to be nasty for both sides.

Dear Scrin,

Games get older, people move on. If there is a direct link to people leaving and the game, it's a mixture of half a dozen, things. one of them might the perceived imbalances or unfairness in infantry vs tank combat, but there's half a dozen other things to consider. Dissapointing updates, bugs that remain in the game for years, bugs that are elevated to feature status but not handled as features and more.

Throwing it all on a single thing and hoping to get it changed is sad. As Taemien said, the average TTK on vehicles by infantry would be around 31 seconds. Plenty of time. The only things that infantry can use to really blow up vehicles without those vehicles being able to get away and repair are:
Zerging
Hoping the tanker decides to stick around despite getting hit
Hoping you can finish off a vehicle that something else already damaged
Placing mines and hope someone drives over them, eventually
Doing C4 fairy runs, which also takes time and can be quite dangerous
Getting an equally expensive MAX with AV options and attack the vehicle (which TR can't really do properly due to bad AV options, tanks can still get away in almost every scenario)

You have made them all leave with your forum spam.

Back in spring 2013 the pops were 3x as high as now. Despite being the time with the most technical, performance and balance issues since november 2012. It was the time when the game felt the most alive, even though drop pods instakilled vehicles, harrasers were rampart, AV mana turrets shooting invisible missiles from miles away, rocket belt cert disabled on death and lock-on missiles going through terrain and NW being the super cert.

In short populations doesn't seem affected much by the quality of the game. They just leave because the game ages too fast somehow, just to return to de_dust2 in CS and shoot people with AK and AWP every single round.

I'm all for it: buff vehicles.

But only when resources revamp is up and running and playrs are not allowed to spam battle tanks and Liberators all day. If vehicles have to be powerful then there must be a downside or a price to pay otherwise our battles will be back to the old "who has more vehicles automatically wins".
Am I the only one remembering the beta days when the best way to win was rolling ad many tanks as possible, destroying the enemy vehicle bay then camp until the countdown was expired? Today tanks are not really that tough but hell still nothing boosts my kdr like a tank run.

Games get older, people get bored and move on with their life, or they are just scared from you spamming the forum with stupid ****.

Else, tank nerfs are done with a reason:

Before, flak armor protected only 25% and HE and HEAT shells had their damage gone after 8m and being instagib 2 to 3 times the distance more than now. They did deserve to get nerfed, but not this much.

Tanks are already stupidly imbalanced. They are either an I-win-everything button like on Dildar and Tankerish but either useless or OK at Wallamir and Hossin. Why? Because map design, they are either in a choke-point being bombarded by air and infantry or they are in a flat field without cover bombarding everything else and winning against everything else.

Tank zergs are impossible to counter because of the ludicrous time to kill and fighting more than 2 tanks is frustrating because of the exorbitant effort you have to put in, and the only counters are :

Zerging heavy assaults with rocket launchers. Probably just scares the tank off.
Light Assault C4, extremely risky and easily avoidable.
The tanker is an idiot and dies due to sticking in one place for too long.
Placing tank mines, which does nothing to push the line.
Getting a long-range AV MAX, which also probably just scares away tank drivers and for TR this is impossible because Fractures are useless.
Getting a liberator, but that's a vehicle that costs as much as a MBT and needs to be certed in to get a worth while belly gun and pilot gun.

Or you zerg vehicles too, then the battlefield becomes a junk yard where you can't participate in because tank spam.

Wheres that pic comparing the explosion radius of a 150mm HE tank shell with a small hand held grenade again?

I think that says it all tbh.

<Terrible fake russian accent>
Puny capitalist soldjer not throw 175mm grenade?
See what happen when use tank made in taiwan!

But can you show that not nerfing vehicles would have either

A) Made the population not drop / or drop by a smaller degree ...

or

B) Make the population drop by a greater degree that it has done ..


Without those two answers , plus countless other statistical data that includes players age, habits, School / work commitments , gaming preferences , boredom levels etc etc etc

It's just a loaded question ..

More splash damage history.

Old zepher
Direct damage: 1200
Indirect damage: 750
Inner radius: 4
Outer radius: 8

Current zepher
Direct damage: 600
Indirect damage: 450
Inner radius: 1.5
Outer radius: 7

Old dalton
Direct damage: 1825
Indirect damage: 1000
Inner radius: 1
Outer radius: 12

Current dalton
Direct damage: 2000
Indirect damage: 450
Inner radius: 0.5
Outer radius: 1

My own thoughts on Scin aside... doesn't that mean he's playing well?

Dude........

Vehicles have NEVER been spammed.

Even post RR the pull rates are the same!


Also being able to pull vehicles actively improves gameplay/fights and allows players to pull counters.