I made drawings for you guys (air)

Actually, just you and Jawarisin. Again you put words in my mouth, again you are lying. Just stop.

Ooh, so all those people who did convince me, who did show me I was wrong and I admitted it, that was just a magic show in Jawaland? Try to read the posts, I do not end up stupid and I do not end up incompetent. This is all a massive case of projection on your part.


Edit:
And seriously how pathetic can you guys get? Especially Cyropaedia. After X posts you suddenly stop arguing and come up with "gee, I had this entirely different world vision I never told you about all along!"
How many times didn't I point out that the things you were saying had already been said to prove the point that G2A wasn't in a good position? Isn't it strange that Jawarisin is on Cyropaedia's side, even though he's been battling those same arguments since they've been made? Damn hypocrites, you only agree with it as long as it's in your favor, the moment it stops being in your favor you blame the guy who points it out to you rather than come up with an argument.

The only arguments I've been battling is yours, ScrinRusher's, and Reclaimer's claiming that AA never makes a kill (and, if they do, it's somehow under freak circumstances). My post on 3 Burster Kills was tailored narrowly to refute the Anti-Air claims in this thread that AA NEVER earns kills. (I really appreciate how you minimize my Burster kills and relegate them to a freak accident). It wasn't my broad AA spiel.

My entire view on AA is much more nuanced to the geo-spatial and speed complexities involved which I sought to expand on in my subsequent post. I was explaining why I am glad to use AA but understand its geo-spatial/speed limitations.

I am not sure why Reclaimer77 had and you are taking this debate less academically and more personally. You do realize that once you call the opposition "liars" there is no debate to be had? It really shows the strength of our side and our arguments if you all are losing your comportment.

Your post on 3 burster kills, which proved to be a fluke rather than solid evidence that Bursters are constantly capable of that, was just that. A fluke. A single example of one good run which is nothing more than a bad representation of the overall experience.

So far your nuance was "Gee, all you need is to be able to lead at professional levels with an A2A weapon and all G2A is fine!" Wait what?

I have been taking this debate 10.0000000 times more academically than you, I've kept pointing out the flaws and the lies, it's just you that completely ignores it and go from bad to worse.
I haven't "just" called you liars, I've pointed it out why you were liars. So I was justified in calling you a liar after I refuted your "arguments".

And I've just pointed out that Jawarisin, who is on "your" side, is now supporting you even though you are using the exact arguments he's been fighting all along when I said them. You gave them a different spin, but the basis was the same that Jawarisin has always denied. So what does that say about "your" side?

There you go again. My Burster kill streak was a fluke!

You cant even define the term "geo-spatial" beyond "leading your target." I am referring to the general and inherent characteristics of immobility and spatial boundaries regarding AA.

I am not Jawarisin and he is not me. Look no further than our disagreement on the expertise of Connery Air in this very thread. He - within a narrow scope - is agreeing with my assessment that your responses are turning into personal attacks. Nowhere - not one iota - does he address the substance of my arguments directed at our exchange. He doesn't vouch for them nor do I expect him to.

Jawarisin is correct in that I should move on. I can't debate a guy who has his mind made up - so much so that he calls any tangible achievements of AA as flukes or freak accidents.

I honestly don't see a problem with AA, sure it's boring when there's not many aircraft around, but its also boring playing as infantry when there's no infantry around.
When was the last time you heard someone saying "I'm having fun!" In an empty base?

Good on them for being preparatory and ensuring their teams are covered from the massive threat that ESF/Libs/BattleGals pose. My platoon last night had a third of a squard dedicated to AA- we drove a skyguard, and 3 AA harassers up a whole hex on Indar to AA TR air when it inevitably swarmed in on our 40 man platoon. We only killed a fraction of them, and deterred maybe 2 out of 5 ESFs- the two galaxies even when focused by 3 lockons, a skyguard, and a walker harasser still had time to cross 3 hexes, drop its entire compliment... and land... under constant fire, to be killed by an AP shell from a Vanguard.

AA is not even a deterrent. It only deters low skill, uncerted ESF/Lib pilots. Nobody else cares one whit about them. Besides, an A2G ESF can easily wreck a skyguard if he has hornets. Note his position, repair, approach from another angle, drop first two on rear, second two on top, and nose gun the flaming wreck. You'll lose maybe half your HP. The -only- vaguely effective AA weapon in this game is dual Walker sunderers. And those are almost non-existant. Flak is incredibly weak, and shells move so slow they're not a threat to moving ESF targets. I routinely fire a kilometer ahead of an ESF flying laterally- basically a horizon ahead of them-... and the shells still fall well short behind them.

The more I play ESF, the more laughable the ESF pilots claim of AA being adequate becomes. Even when they have multiple skyguards, I can in almost all cases still farm away 5-6 kills of infantry (Which I think is plenty fair for one player to accomplish) or an MBT before they shoot me down. (Admittedly, that they do is entirely my fault for overcommitting.)

The only counter to air is air: IF you have inferior numbers of air, or inferior pilots, you have no effective AA coverage.

Ah, now you are talking about positioning skill. What are you trying to do, deliberately make up new and unexplained definitions for things we already can describe perfectly fine with words without having to go do "geo-spatial"?
You are simply referring to the relative speed difference between aircraft and ground vehicles. So what? Does that change anything about the things I've said? No it doesn't, as I've pointed out before.

Exactly and I'm not Reclaimer! So why are you comparing me to him?

Besides that, your inaction to correct Jawarisin, and your complete willingness to agree with anything that furthers your points even though it is often contradictory to your completely new "vision", not to mention that your "vision" is nothing more than an excuse saying "I agree with it so I'm going to file this under some mumbo jumbo design and say that it's supposed to be like that and that people who can't see it are dumb". Really? The design of the game is completely failed. LA's were supposed to be the main infantry class. The original Skyguard was supposed to be enough as a deterrent even though it couldn't for the life of it stand up against an ESF nosegun. Originally the MAX bursters were cheaper resource wise, more accurate and dealt more damage than the Skyguard. Most G2A weapons have had multiple rebalances and are still crap because the core philosophy is crap and detrimental for both the G2A game and the airgame itself.

Yes, he doesn't vouch for them, nor does he attack them. The only thing you quarrel about is some inconsequential "who's experienced and who's not" bickering, which has nothing to do with the overal state of the game.
And you do the same. When he says that Walkers are the Liberators bane and far more dangerous than Skyguards, you should have corrected him. But it suited you because it furthered your proposition that there was nothing wrong with G2A, even though even if it were true it would prove only that one G2A weapon was in the right place (it isn't).

You can debate me, many have tried and already succeeded. But if you come up with magical visions and bullcrap arguments I'm going to point them out to you, like I did before and I did again here.

"inaction to correct Jawarisin"

Wait?! What? LOL. What are you talking about? Gundem made the comment about the effectiveness of Dual Walker Sunderer. Jawarisin replied to that? So what if I don't respond - for or against them? I am obligated to do what?! I literally didn't pay close attention to that exchange until now. I merely liked Gundem's original post (showing usefulness) then let them at it.

My comment on my Burster kill streak was a shot across the bow directed at the overall conversation (mostly Scrin's trivial remarks).

Jawarisin predicted that we would reach a point of incoherence. We have arrived at that point. Lol.

Edit: You are reaching the levels of Reclaimer's vitriol. He greeted everyone with liar, sh*tter, and idiot. haha.

I have changed my avatar so Demigan can differentiate Gundem's posts from my posts.

Avatar? I thought everyone just used Signatures...

Pretty hard to miss the grim reaper of death, IMO

There are a few things that have already been pointed out in this but this map does not take into consideration the placement of the turret compared to the ground level around it. Anti air turrets do not have a complete view of the area due to things such as other buildings, trees, mountains, ect.

Not wrong about Connery pilots being some of the poorest around.

Literally they dont do much else then divebomb a spawn room with nose gun and rockets and they get so close you can consistently shoot them down with a non lock-on rocket.

I just remember the first time I got on Connery to see a mosquito slowly hovering down with a nosegun I pulled out a shrike and fired and I just bust out laughing when he popped flares thinking that would SPOOK my rocket away needless to say I got hackusations and the nastiest PM's Ive probably ever gotten he was acting like it was somehow an incredibly difficult thing to do the worst part is its not some fluke to be able to do that sure its not easy but I've only ever done that once on Emerald on Connery its something thats honestly quite easy. I dont know how the hell they arent all blown away by AA.

Pic seems about right when people actually pay attention. There's a reason I always tell people to buy the cheapest AA lockon third, it is definitely one of the most versatile