I bet this wont get read: General game issues

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by strove, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. strove

    Let me begin by saying that this will be a long forum post, but i hope it raises some valid points. Let me also say that i am in no way intending to sound like i'm whining i'm simply doing my research and pointing out the outcomes.

    Lets start with a little background, PS2 is an excellent game with so many factors to consider that i don't blame any one for any negative things i am about to highlight, in fact i would like to congratulate the devs on getting as close as we are to a perfect free to play game. As to my background, i am an NC player, but for the purpose of this post i have characters made on the TR and VS sides too, i have dug up weapon stat spreadsheets and checked their accuracy, any info i post here is as accurate as it possibly can be so don't argue with the facts.

    The main thing is Empire balance...
    Lets look into the weapon types of all three empires:
    TR : Higher rate of fire and larger mags
    VS : average stats with less recoil and fast reloads
    NC : higher damage per shot but slower rate of fire

    Now to keep the three empires in equilibrium they must all come out with average Damage Per Second (DPS) due to the vast majority of time you have 1 second to kill or be killed, obviously there are more factors than just this, teamwork, player quality, weapon and load out selection but the principle is still there clear.

    For the three factions to work equally they must all output medium power weapons
    VS : Medium damage x medium ROF = Medium guns
    TR : Lower damage x High ROF = Medium guns
    NC : Higher damage x Lower ROF = Medium guns
    = Cross empire balance

    The trouble is this isn't true... a lot of weapons across the three are identical... for instance the Longshot/Rams.50/Parallax are identical... now while this doesn't change balance at all and isn't the focus of this post and doesn't even need to be changed it does remove the empire differences that make this game what it is.

    The Main problem is the weapons that arn't identical...
    Lets look into the default LMGs for all factions

    NC : NC6 Gauss saw Max damage 200 ROF 500 DPS 1666.6r
    TR : T9 Carv Max damage 143 ROF 750 DPS 1787.5
    VS : Orion Max damage 143 ROF 750 DPS 1787.5

    So here we see just a simple example of the situation, obviously weapon attachments make a difference and the Gauss saw has more attachments available but that also means we need to pour more certs into it.
    So the NC Gauss saw has the lowest damage output, however due to it having more damage per shot it also have a huge amount of recoil and spread resulting in doing less damage per second and making less successful hits... the problem with the other two weapons here is that they have lost their empire weapon statistic, the Carv doesn't have a higher ROF as the TR suggests it should.

    This is just one example the the same situation follows in almost every circumstance, resulting in the smaller imbalances stacked against the NC causing quite a large imbalance when you scale it to the multi-platoon fights we commonly see.

    Lets also look into some more specific weapons, Lets start with empire specific rocket launchers (ESRL)
    NC : Phoenix, 750 damage guided Rounds per min : 12
    TR : Striker, 500 damage lock on, 5 rounds clip Rounds per min : 92
    VS : lancer, 150-750, Insta-hit, 6 rounds a clip Rounds per min : 200
    Standard Dumb fire RL : 1700 Rounds per min : 12

    Lets look at damage per min, the Lancer with its 200 RPM stands out first but you must remember that this is the first charge level and isnt worth pointing out, i feel as if the lancer is balanced, you can launch 2 rounds totaling 1500 which are almost impossible to dodge and are VERY efficient at long range. Next is the Striker
    totaling 2500 damage with a range of 500m it is the highest damage with 500 more than the decimator but locks onto everything, Two clips takes out most vehicles with several reloads spare. then there's the phoenix... where the DPS drops the longer you guide it, as well as the fact that the phoenix is hard to control will most likely get you killed due to being unable to defend your self standing there for 10 seconds... and when it finally hits you do half the damage of a dumb fire you started with. Not to mention you can shoot the rocket out of the sky you are much better off with a lock on which has 200m more effective range and is unlikely to miss.

    The lancer is the one to work off, if it were tweaked to reduce accuracy beyond the render distance to stop the ghost rocket effect and the rocket trails were visible there is nothing too bad about it, next we reduce the Striker clip to 3... totaling 1500 lock on which is the same damage as a clip of the Lancer, then just remove the Phoenix all together, its really not worth bothering with, if its going to stay bring its damage up to at least 1700 (standard dumb fire) to compensate for the huge time guiding the thing and make the guiding control agility match the lock on style agility...

    Another thing a lot of people are talking about for the last month is Maxs... The Zoe specifically... now i have seen the patch noted for GU11 which is increasing the damage reduction from 25% to 30%... lets put this in real terms. in the average encounter with a ZOE max you would need another 5-7 seconds of continued fire AFTER you died to kill it but this applys for most maxes as it should do... trouble is they still dominate everything, the speed makes them harder to hit, their damage makes it harder to live... its an impossible combo, either one of these traits on their own with minor buffs would be efficient enough to make it worth doing, the other thing that was in the test server was allowing overdrive for 8-12 seconds at a time which would, i feel, be a good way to balance it without the new armor reduction.

    the other thing about maxs that isn't entirely balanced is effective range... both TR and VS have an effective range of around 50m with some usability beyond that, the NC has a maximum distance of 10m, many people will try to convince a keen NC max user to use the slugs, which, if any one has tried it beyond VR, really isn't an option. i feel as it the jackhammer is a possible way to solve this, stick a jackhammer on each arm, this allows for medium range combat to be possible... and since the jackhammer already exists its not going to be too over powered, tweaks will need to be made but that's the base weapon a solution could revolve around.
    My concern however lies with the NS flame thrower to come out in up coming updates... if all empires now get a close quarters max weapon where does the current NC max lie... other than in a ditch. If the flamethrower is any where as good as people are hoping it to be it will remove the only advantage the NC max ever had... Tread carefully Devs.
    Max abilities is yet another popular topic... the shield is all well and good but when both opposing factions get very notable damage increases why does the NC (the hard hitting faction) get a shield...which also removes any form of offensive action, at the very least give the NC the ability to shield bash, dealing melee damage and a 'THIS IS SPARTA' grin while we do it. there are many other suggestions in the forums so im not going to make this another one of those threads so lets move on...

    Lets look at Main Battle Tanks. For a quick example lets look at Armor Piercing rounds
    NC : does 1500 on direct hit
    TR : does 750 on direct hit and has double barrels
    In this example bare in mind that NC gets a huge reload timer to balance the high damage... in total the TR has the highest DPS yet again, i'm not going to go through the exact maths again as it follows the same format as before

    The one thing i really don't understand is why does one AP round direct hit, not kill a max... now bare in mind that a max is a lightly armored infantry unit. now bare in mind any tank shell to your average infantry would scatter body parts over 100m behind the target on a direct hit... now bare in mind that the AP rounds are designed to tear through tank armor and tell me why a direct AP shell to a max doesn't kill it outright no matter what suit slots its got... the max in question will then go on to empty a clip of the new Rockets into you while you reload... some one make a realistic simulation of the armor required to stop a tank round that's purpose is to destroy armor...



    Dont tell me im wrong... look up the stats, TR has the highest KDR, Battle rank, closely followed by vanu.
    Dont tell me im wrong... look up the stats, In the vast majority of cases the NC weaponry is vastly under powered

    But lets get off the topic of cross empire balance and look at general game balance...

    Harassers... why one lightly armoured harasser with a saron or Vulcan can take out a fully crewed MBT i will never know... Why an ARMOUR PIERCING round wont cut through the 2" maximum armour of a lightly armored Harasser is beyond me...

    Why the vanu scyth gets an air to ground PPA cannon that 2-3 hits most infantry and has an AOE spash i will never understand

    Why do we never use lightnings? well other than when we cant get a MBT... whats the use of one? what situation does one ever go... i need a lightning due to its mobility...oh hold on ill pull a harasser... ill pull a lightning due to its gunning pow...MBT... the sky guard is the only reason youll ever want to pull a lightning, and even that will lose every time against a liberator...

    How about something NEW.... actually NEW... not "heres something new thats OP but we are going to wait till you buy it then nerf it" new just proper NEW...

    1: a new class? Heres an idea i call the sponge! Lets have a class with high health and a tool slot of a riot sheild... ability to deploy it, use of carbines with the sheild on your back or your pistol while using it with reduced speed, give something to let us push out of being spawn camped! Give us a unit that really is a bullet sponge.

    2: New ground vehicle... More relevant when they fix the lightning and harasser first, Lets have a employableartillery, slow moving and only capable of using a secondary gun while moving, deploy time of 10 seconds, then use of mortar style shells with a targeting reticule that shows the destination for both friend, and when fired, foe...
    When used against you you will see the reticule in your area perhaps 5 seconds before it lands. However i dont feel as if we need this at all, just a fix to what we have... Or as a more tolarable alternative, a vehical that when deploys has a 70 degree firing angle but the equivalent of 2 MBT guns, weakness, open land and flanking

    3: NOW THIS IS THE IMPORTANT ONE: New air vehicle... There is a serious problem, there is a hole in the market for a new air vehicle... currently ESF is single pilot A2A or A2G focusing on maneuverability...Liberator, Kings of A2G... Galaxy, Completly useless unless a platoon wants to get 48 people across a map... Following which the gals are either abandoned or destroyed in a cloud of AA...

    THE IDEA:
    Imagine a liberator... front gun, rear gun... removed the belly gun and replace with 6 rumble seats, 2 of which are max capable, "but surely one rocket to the side will kill 3 people?" thats where the temp sheild comes in. Simply add a vehical version of the standard infantry sheild, but also reduce the vehicals total HP to counter. Also allow these 6 to bail out safely from 100m... Now theres an idea, mobile air to ground support/ transport, not stepping on the toes of the sky whale galaxy, nor replacing the liberator. Give engineers the ability to share ammo inside the vehical, and remove the ability for the pilot and rear gunner to jump out safely by switching to a safe eject rumble seat. Suddenly there might just be a reaon smaller groups of people might just pull air...

    At this point i dont care, flame all you want on this post, i will argue my points to the death of planetside (which may be quite soon) NC matherson never has more than 30% server pop, and its going down, outfits at a time are quiting, the general reasoning, the game is dragging... Why? a combination of nothing new to do for months on end, and the lack of genuinly useful weaponry to counter the vanu and terran...

    THE PROBLEM IS FEAR

    The devs simply wont buff the NC as they will receive so much flack to the point i would half expect letter bombs in the post from some self obsessive tunnel visioned VS and TR fan boys. Trouble is, if they dont do somthing soon the NC will dissapear... completly...think about it, you have the stats on the matter, now picture the stats of 6 months time... will the NC be on there at all? if the NC are gone, if ONE THIRD of the players are just completly GONE will planetside even exist or will every one soon follow? look at the infamouse buzzcutpsycho and [TE] they simply left, several hundered players left to find a new game without these problems, and it was these problems they left for...

    I dare you to agree with the pure stats ive presented to you, i then dare you to admit that the devs will do bugger all due to the potential flack, i dare you to spread the word and to eventually dare the devs to do it...
    • Up x 2
  2. HooWoo

    About the Phoenix, it has a damage multiplier against vehicles of about 2.4x or something like that so it actually has the same damage as the dumb-fires against vehicles. The reason it says it only has 750 damage is because if the damage was 1700 or 2000 then it'd be able to OHK infantry so thus they just changed the direct damage and added a multiplier against vehicles.
    • Up x 3
  3. HooWoo

    I don't understand what you're trying to say about the prowler's DPS, I don't think you understand that if it had a lower DPS then the prowler would be horrid, the prowler has to hit 2 of its shells to get its full DPS and you're forgetting that a Vanguard can just pop out and take its shot from out of cover then go back into cover for its reload and then go back out.

    If you've ever played World of Tanks you'll know what I mean.
    • Up x 2
  4. HooWoo

    Are you high or something? BCP was on TR, he left because of the two main big reasons, none of which you're talking about such as,
    1. Poor optimization (which they're working on now)
    2. No meta-game.
    • Up x 1
  5. DashRendar

    If the 200dmg weapons did 215-220 damage per shell instead of 200, it would fix a lot of things. DPS would be more in line, Nanoweave would effect all factions equally, and non-nanoweave enemies would be largely unaffected.
    • Up x 1
  6. strove



    This is still very poor compared the huge usability of any other rocket, for anti armour a group of NS annihilators will have more effect than the same amount of phoenix, reaon being, even if it did do as much damage as any other, it takes around 7 seconds to guide the rocket to destination, the rocket can be shot out of the sky and you can be killed while standing there like a horribly misplaced shop window dummy...
    • Up x 1
  7. strove

    What im saying is the prowler has much more room to maneuver, its not game over if you miss one shell, you fire double the amount in the same time, which makes even more difference against infantry which can be killed by a single shell if the driver is any good...
  8. HooWoo

    Excuses, learn to use your ESRL properly

    I, for one see many phoenix campers in spawn rooms

    How much damage do you want it to do, 4000 or something so instead of 1/4 damage it does 1/2? it's already an amazing rocket launcher if you can use it correctly.
  9. HooWoo

    Vanguard = Tank killer
    Prowler = Inf Killer

    Vanguard > Prowler
    Prowler > Infantry
    Inf > vanguard
  10. Blackbird

    To be honest stoped reading after first few paragraphs . Really dont think this person has any experience with all the stuff he posted about .
    I personaly prefer the NC LMG to all other factions . The TR fires faster but is almost uncontrolable . The VS is better than TR but seem to not hit as hard NC tho .
  11. KAHR-Alpha

    What he's doing is just nitpicking, he's basically only looking at the stats he can use to support his point, while disregarding the others and with and how things actually work.
    • Up x 1
  12. strove

    Im refering to the fact that the devs wont do any thing about anything due to poor press, BCP left because, although hes words sparked ideas, only half of it ever even saw the light from the devs.

    As to him leaving due to optimization, he regularly run in the biggest groups of players while steaming, i doubt he had that many problems there.

    Any ways my original point here was that a large group of players left because stuff didnt get done, and months later still nothing, infact since he left all weve got is some camos, hats and flares... esamir lattice came in but we were expecting that, in the same way weve been expecting hossin since april and amerish lattice since before that...
  13. HooWoo

    He streamed on low resolutions plus he had a streaming PC

    He regularly comments about how no matter what PC he had, he will never be able to run that 'piece of ****' well to quote him

    (PlanetSide 2 is amazing though :p)
  14. strove


    Lack of reading is going to kill humanity in the end...

    Allow me to clarify, i have over 900 hours logged,
    NC BR58
    VS BR25
    TR BR20

    ofcourse every one will have preferences im sure you do prefer the NC weaponry, im sure many do, the point is that by DPS even if you do play well with NC weaponry, you are still at a disadvantage by numbers...
  15. Giggily

    Not really. The Gauss Saw, for example, has a longer real world TTK than the Orion and a slightly longer TTK than the CARV. The Vanguard really does perform worse than the Prowler as well.
  16. strove


    What ive done here to avoid making a 10,000 word essay documenting the exact stats of every single weapon, is looked at the default weapons for all empires and all, non-max classes. In every case (other than infiltrator) the default NC weaponry (and bare in mind that the vast majority of players use default weapons) is lacking in aroung 50-200 DPS in every case, im confident that that alone is a problem, however if you need me to find every stat just to dis-prove your one sided argument youll just have to give me a little longer to do some more maths. However people have allready got statistics which show that the TR and VS have higher kills per min/hour/day/month than the NC by 5%-17%
  17. strove

    in this case i am willing to admit i may be wrong, im not a single minded person willing to judge every one elses opinion to be wrong, however he still left due to a lack of stuff getting done, which is what my latter part of my, perhaps a little excessive wall of text, covers.
  18. Giggily

    Actually the NC have very competitive Carbines, and in my opinion the best selection.
  19. A 59 c

    I agree with you entirely. It was an excessively long wall of text.
  20. Delnar_Ersike

    Kind of off topic, but I think TR has the better carbines, mainly because they have more 0.75x ADS movement stuff, which is incredibly useful in CQC, where carbines usually shine to begin with.