How to beat a ZOE MAX

How to beat a ZOE MAX, or How to cook disco crab.

(I feel like a crab when running around, my guns (with the exception of AA) remind me of crab claws)

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have seen numerous threads about how the ZOE MAX is/isn’t over powered. I personally believe it is fine, however that isn’t the focus of my post today. I believe that regardless of it being ‘broken’ or ‘not broken’ TR and NC players, on the whole (i.e. most but not all of you, or at least the very vocal ones who post on the forums), seem to be at a loss for how to deal with a ZOE MAX. I am here to teach you how to cook that annoying disco crab.

But orewashinigamiza, you’re a VS sympathizer, how would you know how to cook a disco crab? Excellent question! I can assure you I am well versed in the myriad ways of cooking a disco crab…as my favorite class to play is disco crab and I have been cooked in many, some of them unspeakable, ways. Those who have nothing better to do will likely loop up my profile and discover that my K/D is sub one…something around .7 ish at this time. That should tell you I’m good at being dead. Very good at it, I assure you.

Okay, so…in my opinion before you cook something you should learn about it. After all, if you want to cook a disco crab you must first hunt it down and kill it. This post will have 3 major sections: An overview of the strengths and weaknesses of a disco crab, common disco crab loadouts, and for those who truly are dissatisfied with the discocrab species some suggestions that might make them happy (I.e. balancing suggestions).

Okay, so the disco crab is a variant of MAX that runs Zealot Overdrive Engine (commonly known as ZOE). ZOE does 2 major things for the VS MAX: 1. It gives it a passive speed buff, and 2. It increases its damage by a static amount (based off of the weapon equipped). Let’s cover those two things right now.

Speed buff

The speed buff increases its movement speed in all modes of movement. Walking, running, and strafing. From what I’ve heard, the walking and strafing speed puts the MAX on equal footing with infantry, and the running speed is slightly faster. How much faster? I saw a post a long time ago that covered it but don’t remember, but from what I’ve experienced in game is it’s comparable to the Light Assault speed mod. In essence, for short distances the speed boost is negligible, but at longer range you can overtake infantry.

Damage Boost

ZOE grants a static damage boost to MAX weapons. This value changes based on the weapon, and some weapons benefit more than others. I honestly couldn’t tell you the values, but I’ve heard 25% thrown around somewhere, but again it’s based on each weapon. I’ve heard that the bonus isn’t as high for the charge up AV guns, or for the faster firing AI guns.

One other advantage is that ZOE is infinite duration, instant on, instant off. The infinite duration passive speed boost makes this, in my opinion, better than Charge by miles. Charge requires heavy certing to use frequently and even then has a long cooldown, while ZOE gives you infantry/slightly faster than infantry speeds at all times. In the end, you end up covering more ground faster over long distances. The instant on/instant off nature of ZOE allows you to partially mitigate the primary disadvantage to ZOE if you are smart about disabling it (unlike me most of the time).

Both of those abilities combined with the MAX’s natural fortitude can allow a ZOE MAX to effectively operate solo. Those who say that they can’t are very mistaken, as a skilled MAX player can be quite effective solo. This however does require a high degree of situational awareness, and usually, cover of some sort for the MAX. Also, while I say he can operate solo I am not implying that he can reliably engage and defeat a squad or even half a squad worth of people. That all depends on the squad that he is engaging. If they come in twos or threes it is possible that he can win, any more and he will be overwhelmed. The need for repairs can be negated with nanite auto-repair armor, but ammo is still a major issue.

Which brings us to the next topic: the disadvantages of ZOE.

Increased Damage

ZOE is not without flaw. It’s primary disadvantage is that you take increased damage while it is active. Again, I don’t know the specifics, but I hear its somewhere in the ballpark of double. That means that every cut, hurts more, and the disadvantage more or less negates the benefit that most armors provide (i.e. they take you back to the base level MAX in terms of protection from what I understand).

Disco-mode

You also turn this…interesting… shade of purple/pink, and GLOW dark (and light too). This is an announcement banner to all saying: Disco time! Unsurprisingly, it would appear that the TR and NC were behind the push that killed disco in the 70s and 80s…and it would appear that their inclinations toward the respectable dance have not changed. They don’t like it, and they don’t like us. While it is on, you might as well wear whatever camo you have that looks the coolest, because it won’t matter.

You’re faster than your engineer

This seems minor as well, but it’s worth noting. When you sprint you move faster than your engineer WHILE HE IS SPRINTING. He cannot keep up with you, and even if he’s relatively close. IF he stops to heal you he might get one tick on you before you’re out of range again.

Common ZOE Builds

These are the three builds I use the most, and while I won’t say they’re the be-all end-all, I’ve found them to be particularly effective.

AI – Dual Blueshift

For anti-infantry I use dual blueshift, mostly for the accuracy of the weapons. I don’t have the increased mags, but I feel it would only make it more effective. The weapon is great at medium range and good at close range. At long range it just depends. The main problem is when you’re surrounded at close range, that’s where the accuracy comes to bite you. It is difficult to hit multiple targets simultaneously, which basically relies on you to quickly down as many as possible. For this kind of crab, or for any AI crab (it’s hard to tell the difference between the AI weapons) surround it. The most effective is 3 or more, because a MAX (any max) can and should be able to reliably win a 2v1 in its domain. It is preferred to engage at long range if you want to dissuade the MAX from using a particular route, but to down it you’ll want to engage it at close range. If you do so, you MUST surround. ANY MAX geared for AI should be able to reliably win a 2v1 infantry fight and the ZOE MAX is no exception. The key to defeating it is to flank and surround. Keep at least 2 people in its blind spot at all times. Remember, while the ZOE MAX is more maneuverable than other MAX units, it also takes more damage from your attacks when in disco mode. When I play a ZOE MAX I know the key to survival is to down enemies as fast as possible, so I tend to leave ZOE on in AI mode in order to gain the damage. We rely on our mobility, and disabling it takes that away, plus it ensures that infantry will live longer (if only slightly), which means more bullets for us to be shot with. Yay. Seriously, I can’t say this enough, flank us.

AV – Dual Cosmos

IMO this is the best gun out there. 4 clips will down a Sunderer (that’s 16 rounds folks). Further more, a headshot with dual cosmos in disco mode will instantly kill any infantry. To be honest, that makes sense, particularly if 16 rounds will kill a sunderer. If you don’t headshot though, you need 4 rounds, and if you miss at all the splash damage is almost a joke. As infantry engaging a AV max, just dodge the cosmos rounds. It’s easier said than done yes, but if they miss then they’ll spend some time reloading, which you can spend shooting them. I’m an experienced MAX player, and 1v1 I can reliably win. Heck I can reliably win 2v1 with AV loadouts, but I’ve spent a lot of time learning how people move to do it. Flank me. It’ll give you free hits. Also, vehicles are pretty effective too, particularly the Vulcan. I would advise against using rockets from vehicles if only because if you miss you have a long reload, and the AV max can get more hits on you. Still, it can 1 hit them or leave them very close to death. Harassers are very effective against AV maxes due to their speed and maneuverability, tanks are a toss-up. If the MAX starts with rear shots then he will have a strong advantage, but a 2/2 MBT will be able to overcome it, particularly the Vanguard (because of its shield) or any MBT with HE rounds. Lightning tanks generally will not fare well (with the exception of possibly HE lightnings), particularly if the MAX gets a back shot in first at it only takes 8 rounds to the rear to down a lightning, and the first 4 would have been the first volley. That being said, putting your sides/front to the MAX will obviously increase your survivability.


AA – Dual Burster

This is pretty obvious. The MAX has limited AI ability, but in more than 1v1 it can be a toss-up depending on player skill. If he’s gone AA then the obvious LOLpod/bombing routing will work nicely. Zephyr will probably have the best result, as a ZOE Max is mobile enough to escape most of the damage from a Dalton and if the player is aware enough LOLpods as well.

There is one final strategy I haven’t mentioned, the Decimator. With ZOE on, a VS MAX will die from a single decimator round. Before you talk about the maneuverability of the ZOE MAX realize something: people have been using the decimator as an anti-infantry weapon since its release. This is no different other than the MAX can output more damage faster. This requires you to basically know where the MAX is and be in close range, or for the MAX to be unaware of you at a longer range. Will you die? Yes….probably. Will it be worth it? Yep. I can assure you, all-to-often there aren’t enough medics around. Unless we’re winning or the fight is looking like it will be/already is a grinder. In which case still worth it, since the max is now at 25% health at most when resurrected. Also, you’ll be happy to know it only takes 1 person to down a MAX like this.

Some suggestions

In case someone from SOE is reading this and as an attempt to appease the undoubtedly angry people reading this post I have some suggestions for balancing the ZOE MAX. As stated earlier, I personally believe it to be relatively balanced (I think the other two abilities could use a little bit of a boost, but I think on the whole ZOE is balanced and those abilities are a little underpowered).

1. Buff NC and TR abilities a little.
a. TR – I’ve seen some good suggestions for this. Increased armor, faster reload or perhaps for certain weapons allow unlimited size clip. I still have some reservations about that last part though, as I fear it could make them too powerful, particularly with an ammo pack right beside them. All roles would be….difficult to overcome, especially with their increased bullet velocity and other advantages that come from anchoring.
b. NC – I really liked the suggestion of slightly increasing their shield sizes so it could potentially offer some protection to their allies. I also loved the suggestion for shield bash and reloading while the shield is up.
2. Modify ZOE
a. Startup Timer – based off of rank in ZOE minimum 0 seconds (starts at 5, lose 1s per rank)
b. Cooldown Timer – i.e. how long before it can be re-enabled after being disabled start at something like 30s down to 5 on last rank
c. ZOE overload – When disabled, triple damage to MAX for period of time = to cooldown/x time. Maybe add smoke or something to indicate the system is overloaded
d. Decrease repair while ZOE enabled – 25% as suggested seemed a bit excessive in my opinion. I think that would be crippling to the MAX in general in gameplay. Instead I’d suggest something like 10%
e. Scale ZOE speed boost based off of rank (damage already is).

Personal Commentary:
Those recommendations aren’t exclusive, but neither would I suggest putting them all on there. Pick and choose. The proposed changes to ZOE, if completely implemented, would ensure that people spend more time in ZOE but it would also remove people toggling ZOE on/off in combat.
As stated before, I personally believe ZOE to be balanced in the grand scheme of things. I feel like people are trying to apply a cookie cutter approach to deal with it, and in my opinion it requires a completely different set of tactics than normal. Rather, it requires the enemy to use tactics. Most of these solutions are really to deal with solo ZOE maxes. In a group it can, and should, be much harder. Just remember, a single engineer can’t out-repair incoming damage, and with enough people it’ll fall…though it will cost you a lot. Something people seem to forget though, is that ZOE MAX is still a MAX. It should take extraordinary effort to defeat it. I don’t walk around thinking I can easily kill an NC or TR MAX. I can’t and I know it. If I encounter them as a normal infantry I rarely survive, even with a buddy. In close quarters, an NC MAX will tear me to shreds, as it should. A TR MAX will do some stuff and kill me (I don’t see you guys as often, sorry L ). Are VS pulling a lot of MAXes? Probably. It’s a very useful tool, especially since most people don’t seem to handle fighting one well. Do lots of TR use strikers? Yup. Why? It’s strong against every type of vehicle. Does it have its problems? Beats me. Sometimes I don’t think so, but that’s because I’m sore about getting killed. Anyway, my last suggestion again is when the conventional fails to work, don’t get angry and call it cheating/OP/whatever. Start thinking unconventionally.

Also, don’t cheat.


Thanks for reading!


PS: I've never seen a platoon, or even half platoon of ZOE MAXes, granted I play at odd times. Still, if you encounter that remember this: a platoon or half platoon of other MAXes would suck just as much. This game is about numbers. MAXes are by far the strongest infantry unit in the game, so a full platoon of them would turn the tide of any fight, particularly if the players are skilled. A full platoon of anything sucks.

TL;DR - Redeploy

TL;DR - Shoot it, if you've got friends have them shoot it too.

I think that's actually what the post is getting at.

MY god, why does the ZOE need an entire article on how to take one down when the NCs/ TRs is basically

1) Point gun at

2) shoot

But no, this thread doesn't point at at all just how ridiculously dangerous ZOE max suits are. Not one bit

Shoot it.

OP thinks we don't play this game and need his expert insight.

Hey bro, we have plenty of ZOE max experience.


A lot can be told of a weapon and counter by how the majority of people behave while using it. This bypasses theory altogether and gets straight to the reality of the situation.

Before ZOE, VS maxes played very much like the other maxes. Aggressively and defensively in appropriate situations.

After ZOE, VS maxes are played in much greater numbers and charge like fearless zombies hungry for brains. Lets focus on the fearless part.
While a ZOE max is not invulnerable, the reality is that most of the anti-vehicle weaponry that stings the most misses the ZOE max completely, while the anti-infantry weapons + zoe damage buff merc enemy infantry so well that they essentially do not fear them.

Basically the best defense against infantry is to just kill them super-fast instead of playing tactically, and the weapons that hurt the most have a greater chance of missing while the ZOE max jazz-hands, and running through "max traps" faster than you can react to set off the trap.

And thus, the most effective way to play a max is by playing it fearlessly.

Maybe up the damage that AP and rockets do to ZOE by 100% and that may change their behavior to be less zombie-like.

To defeat the Cyberdemon ZOE Max, shoot at it until it dies.

But all of these tips would require people to do something (like ADAPTING) other than complain and you know that isn't going to happen.

Its easier to come on here and say "PLEASE NERF EVERYTHING THAT KILLS ME TOO MUCH!!!"

I read the whole thing.

I never have a problem with ZOEs in small numbers. I have problems with ZOEs in large, platoon size battles where killing a ZOE means nothing due to the immense amount of support. Take a ZOE out and he will be back second laters. When the squad has to focus on the ZOEs it detracts them from the support. VS say just shoot the ZOE and yeah that works. But while that ZOE is being focus fired by 4+ squad members, the support is just being left untouched.

The ZOEs killing power, movement speed and obscene amount of force multiplication when used en masse is killing a lot of fun infantry fights me. Yes I kill any MAX with ease when in a small scale battle, no I cannot kill all the ZOEs plus all the support in one run when in a large scale battle. Put 20 ZOEs on a point and have the rest as of the platoon as medics and engis then it is game over.

ZOEs are obscene when used en masse. ZOEs are a joke when in a smaller battle without the support. Balance that part.

Oh for the record my Anti MAX loadout is:

Jackhammer - though any shotgun will do
Shrike - I will change to Decimator when I Auraxium this
Grenade Bonadlier - 4 AV nades? And there are MAXs? Gimme them kills.
Resist Shield - Dunno if the others would be better. Have all shields maxed out. May experiment more here.

I run heavy for Anti MAX duty as I hate MAXs. I hate to face them, I hate to play them. Got 500 kills with my AI MAX and just got bored of it. Only pull it for AA duty and prefer to play Heavy to deal with MAXs.

Oh god, after reading all of the humongous post I fell so enlightened of how,.. spandex the VS truly is!

What can mere men do in the sight of such reckless spandex?

Bow before the ***** gods, as is your place!

So what exactly ISN'T obscene in large numbers? Try dealing with a tank or ESF zerg. Or strikers, MAXes in general, phoenixes, etc... There are a lot of things in this game that can dominate everything when you get a big group using them.

I like "high heel crabs" or "high heel zoidberg maxes".

Anyway, deci to the face then pray you can run away, rinse and repeat till high heel crab is dead. .

I find sprint and the delete button to be the most effective way to deal with them.

Considering the vast majority of base captures are in enclosed spaces where tanks / esfs / strikers / phoenixs play a minute roll, I would say that ZOEs become obscene when it comes to what the vast majority of the game is about - base captures. I'm looking at you tech labs, bio labs and to a lesser extent amp stations, the VS certainly get their way a lot when it comes to capturing facilities and walking all over alerts.

Oh and tank zergs / air zergs are an easy problem in comparison to an indoor facility infested with ZOEs. Tank zergs / air zergs are just free points.

@Hoki and Larolyn: I think you guys are really underestimating the strength of a MAX in general (not just a VS MAX). A mass of MAXes of any type will put a place on lockdown. It's not just limited to VS MAXes. Scattermaxes will tear anything that enters the room to tiny bits. I can't speak too much of TR maxes, but I suspect they'd do pretty good as well, especially if they were locked down in well placed positions with sight on the doors. They could effectively keep any infantry out with obscene fire rates.

Larolyn, that's a nice loadout. Shrike is not bad, I don't know if it one-shots a ZOE MAX or not...I feel like it might have done so to me once but I might be wrong. I had totally forgotten about anti-vehicle grenades. Those are really good against ZOE MAXes, as I'm sure you know. It's so frustrating to hear a grenade, die, and find out it wasn't a normal grenade but an AV one. I'm tempted to say that against ZOE MAX your best bet is probably the regular shield, since it just gives you flat HP, however I haven't really used the resist shield. My launcher of choice is usually the Nemesis (dumbfire/lockon G2A), it gives me the ability to effectively target air but dumbfire in the face of maxes if need be. Sadly it does less damage so it usually only downs damaged MAXes. Still one-shots infantry though.

I don't know what server you're on, but server pop also plays a large role (and increases your chance of seeing MAXes). I think Connery has a 50% VS pop around alerts, though I have no clue when or why that happened.

@Nocturnal: Yup. It hurts, believe me.

If your decimator shot connects, it will be a mistake to run. Decimator shots take 35 out of 40 health boxes against non flak ZOE MAXes, which the majority will be. Shooting the remaining health will be more productive. Or, damage it a bit first and then 1-hit it with the decimator.

Don't worry, eventually the ZOE will die of old age.

" .....And like sharks, they feasted on the eloquent sophistry. "
-excerpt from Forumside chronicles Vol.1