[Suggestion] How to Balance Close Range BASRs

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scroffel5, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. Scroffel5

    Noted. Still pretty easy to use. You use numbers to show the KPU and KPH, but do you have access to the average battle rank that uses each weapon? Of course, that changes as people level up and new people pick up the weapon, but that'll give a broader picture of who is using the weapon. You can't simply say that the CQC snipers aren't used much and when they are, it is used by highly skilled users. If you could provide numbers for those, thats would be greatly appreciated.
  2. pnkdth


    He's given you more than you need to understand you are wrong. Swallow your pride, set aside your ego, and accept it.
  3. Scroffel5

    Its not "more than enough" to compare them to a class that is a designated killing machine and someone who pushes into the room. He also made a lot of assumptions about who uses the weapon and what they do when they use it. Lets also look at KDR, since he ignored that.

    The average KDR for the NS-15M2, the weapon I was using as comparison, has a 1.39 KDR, while the SAS-R has a 2.38 KDR. Now, why would that be? If the KPH of the NS-15M2 is higher than the SAS-R, which it is, but the KDR is lower, which it is, what does that mean? It means that you are getting a kill, dying, respawning, and getting another kill, while the SAS-R gets 2 kill, stays alive longer, dies, and respawns. The HA pushes into a room and gets a kill that way, usually. It leads the push. The Infiltrator is typically outside, in a place where they are more likely to live but there are less enemies coming for them, which leads to getting more kills at a slower rate, all because you stay alive longer. Also, the KPH of both the SAS-R and the NS-15M2, the weapons I compared, have close enough numbers to be competitive. They are only 4 kills apart. So no, he needs to make less assumptions on who is using the weapon and why the numbers are this way without taking into consideration all the numbers.
  4. pnkdth


    Which class is a killing machine? The infiltrator? A class which consistently gets worse KPM than the HA? Oh, better KDR, you say? Well, as an infiltrator you should damn well know that BASRs are exceptionally easy to inflate your KDR with to make it look like you're better than you actually are (well, until someone looks at your SPM/KPM, that is).

    Also, can you stop comparing one of the worst performing LMGs to the best performing BASRs while ignoring the popular/best LMGs performance? It is really coming off as disingenuous. The NS-15M is one of the most average weapons in the game. It has less than average DPS, small magazine, with the redeeming features of being easy to control and reloading quickly. In other words, a weapon which really is quite mediocre and only ever going to shine (somewhat) in the hands of a really good player. I could make the exactly same comparison with the MSW-R, Anchor, Battlegoose, and the scenario you described would paint the HA as a merciless butcher and the infiltrator as an opportunistic vulture competing over scraps. The infiltrator might be dying less but it will also run around being the shining example of useless while it looks for its next kill.

    The exception is the infiltrator who joins in the danger zone and starts kicking butt. That takes a lot of skill to do right and very few players can do it (though many claim they can despite never showing any evidence or stats to back it up). That said, if you are one of these MLG ready players you're going to do better with HA/LA and probably by playing "medium assault" as a medic.

    On top of all this there really is no data which shows infiltrators over-performing either. Kinda need to demonstrate that CQC BASR infiltrators are infantry killing machines before I accept that they are. So if you could provide the numbers for that, it would be greatly appreciated.
  5. Scroffel5

    No, the killing machines are HAs, and how is the NS-15M2 the worst performing LMG? Its NS, and there are no CQC BASRs other than the Daimyo, and that isn't the sniper rifle I have a complaint against.

    I am not measuring who is doing better by how useful they are being. HAs are only useful in combat roles, but Infiltrators are useful in giving them the information to do said combat. Their recon devices and killing key targets such as medics or people who have bounties on them helps the team win. Usefulness is subjective. You could say the HAs are useful because they can push into a room and get the point and keep the point. That is true, but without recon, it would be difficult to know who is flanking you, what direction they are coming from, if there is any movement in your group of allies that is an enemy, and so on. The most important part of an Infiltrator in terms of teamplay is probably not their weapons. It is the information they provide.

    If something is over-performing, it is most likely doing so in terms of group killing. What I mean is that you typically wouldn't think something is over-performing if it is even with taking people out in a 1v1 but you would if they were taking on 2 or 3 people and coming out alive. While the CQC BASR can't do that unless you are pretty skilled, they are stupid easy to use. That is why there are so many players who record a video of them going on a killstreak with either a CQC BASR Infiltrator or a Heavy Assault. In a 1v1 situation, you are most likely going to win the BASR, even with 2 body shots at certain ranges. The HA also has great 1v1 potential but it can also kill groups, but I don't see why Kane is even comparing BASRs and LMGs. I mean, it looks a lot like HAs over-perform, and if so, why should the numbers of Infiltrators be so close to the numbers of HAs? You can be competitive with the BASR just as an LMG.

    All I ask is that we make them harder to use in a 1v1 engagements. Players who are truly good will do the same as they do now, but it would make the weapon harder to use overall.
  6. pnkdth


    And you have not shown an ounce of evidence this is the case. I mean, if you think the wealth of data which has been presented to you is insufficient how convincing do you think your position of "I dunno, I just kinda feel like it is too easy so it should be nerfed" sounds like to us?
  7. Scroffel5

    Yeah, but it is data based off of numbers and assumptions and is in comparison to the Heavy Assault class, which is meant to be the guy who leads the push into the room, kills everyone, and if he dies, he gets revived. Also, the NS-15M2 isn't trash. It is perfectly viable. We should be comparing how the CQC BASRs perform in relation to the Infiltrator class and arsenal.
  8. pnkdth


    The infil vs HA comparison started on page one. As shown before, the low magnification BASRs are (at their best) performs worse than most LMGs. The NS15M you keep brining up might be a viable choice but it does not perform well. Probably because it has pitiful DPS which is far from optimal when you inhabit an area with the highest ROF and/or DPS weapons in the game (not to mention shotguns, C4, etc). Personally I call it a trash tier LMG since if you come up against an equally skilled HA you will lose every time. I'll stick to my EM6/Anchor/SAW/CARV/MSW-R/Orion/BG/Pulsar LSW, thank you very much.

    I also think calling the TSAR/SAS-R/Ghost CQC weapons to be incredibly misleading. I doubt half (if even that) of the players using these weapons manage to be even a moderate threat as a true CQC sniper. Personally I try and stick to 25m-100m since with a 4x scope mid range is far more desirable + I won't get my face melted by competent players.

    But HA comparison or not, if you check voidwell and include all kinds of infiltrator weapons you'll see that even there the "CQC" BASRs does not stand out. Doesn't perform particularly bad either but then again, I'm not here asking for a buff. In this sense, I think you gotta make the case for whatever internal balance you want for the infiltrator. Again, I think it is going to be really hard to get people onboard since there is virtually nothing in the data we have access to which suggest the low magnification BASRs actually needs a closer look.

    As for different classes + roles and impact, that's probably a bigger discussion yet not something I think they'll touch or try and mess with at this point in the game.
  9. Scroffel5

    In terms of Infiltrator weapons???

    Edit: bad.link

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...28000&startDate=2019-11-12&endDate=2019-12-22
  10. OneShadowWarrior

    It was never an issue before when Heavy Assault had shields that protected and nanoweave stacked, they also increased the strength of headshots and it’s gotten out of control. Even harder for new players to understand.

    LMG’s took massive nerfs during Planetside Critical Mass update, it was a step in the wrong direction to sway balance to the non-heavy classes. Heavy Assault now is just a sitting target.

    Vets like me, fight only in situations where I know the range is controlled, otherwise I find another fight where they can’t exploit.
  11. pnkdth


    SMGs are common pool across classes, so that's one infiltrator weapon you got there and since you're too lazy to prove your own points I'll just share this: https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...25002&startDate=2019-06-22&endDate=2019-12-22

    It is over 6 months and includes all kinds of weapons. Spoilers, there's no indication of low magnification BASRs of standing out as overpowered. They are not the worst of the bunch but you'd be struggling to shape a narrative which says they're overpowered or needs to be reigned in.
    • Up x 1
  12. Scroffel5

    Why would you include long range weapons to compare CQC weapons? I also included the Tomoe and Vandal, but yeah I was too lazy to go back and try to remember the names of all of the faction specific scout rifles. Even in that list, the SAS-R and Ghost are pretty high, making quite a few jumps up.
  13. pnkdth


    For that reason...

    Second, the Ghost/TSAR/SAS-R/Vandal/Tomoe aren't CQC weapons and second, well, you've said numerous times now you want to take a look at the internal balance of the infiltrator. I did, and all we're able to say is that these low magnification BASRs are performing within the scope of other infiltrator weapons used at the same ranges.

    In short, you're actually going to have to qualify your statements from now on. I'm not going to do your work for you and if you can't be bothered, well, expect others to treat you in a manner deserving of such an attitude. In this case, you expressed a want to balance the infiltrator class internally yet it appears you haven't even begun to verify your assumptions.

    If your issue lies within game mechanics, i.e. OHK weapons in general or the role the infiltrator should have, then I'd start there instead. Just be prepared to meet people who might not like you stepping on their preferred style of play.
  14. Scroffel5

    I don't have a problem with OHK weapons for the Infiltrator. Regular snipers benefit from having range and are harder to use up close. I don't like OHK weapons up close that are easy to use. The best way for you to not get hit is to shake your mouse around vigorously, and when you stop to shoot your target, you get headshotted. Also, everyone refers to them as CQC weapons. What do you want to call them? MQC weapons? Plus, they are most often used in CQC, at least from what I have seen. I think that removing the sights on the weapon will force it into a CQC-MQC role, as it is already, but it will also make it harder to get headshots from the suitable 4x range.

    When I said we should be comparing CQC BASRs to the infiltrator arsenal, I meant weapons functioning in the same range that the CQC BASR functions in. You are much closer to your enemy then the average sniper and you are much more likely to die, so we have to use the same weapons that function like it. You can't take a long range rifle and compare it to a close range rifle. It doesn't work, because they are used in different ranges and will get different results. You have to play with them differently.

    Also, I went to voidwell and gave data. I didn't give every weapon the Infiltrator can use, but I did give some data. Even compared to the more used SMGs, the CQC BASRs are doing very well. I am not saying they shouldn't do well, but in 1v1 situation, it is very likely you are going to die to that Infiltrator. If you hit a headshot for everytime they hit a headshot, you are dead. The bodyshot damage of the CQC BASR is alright and leads to them dying if they hit it and the other person hits all of their body shots, but of course, they won't. I just think that it needs a change.
  15. iller

    You can label it that all you want, but you first had to assume that I had an AGENDA behind that perceived intellectual dishonesty which is in itself a bad faith argument as well. Let us just agree to disagree instead and allow the passage of time (and industry Trends) to reveal who was "More technically enlightened".