[Suggestion] How to Balance Close Range BASRs

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scroffel5, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. Scroffel5

    You made me very, very proud with this comment right here, as I have said it before. When an Infiltrator kills someone, that person needs to go find the Infil. IF YOU HEAR AN INFILTRATOR, LOOKING FOR THE INFILTRATOR IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO. That way, you are little threat to the Infiltrators' allies. Amazing post.
  2. Scroffel5

    As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES, a sniper is harder to use the closer you get to your enemy. That is why it is harder to handle, as you are overzoomed so much. The handling on the weapon is terrible in close range, while with a shotgun, you can easily hipfire it. It isn't just a game of numbers. It is a game of usability. I'll comment more later, but in conclusion, you are wrong.
  3. pnkdth

    1) KDR without the context of SPM/KPM is meaningless. Plus, you can achieve better results, e.g. farming, with other classes and vehicles. Having a person off in the distance means it is manageable since...

    2) You can cancel them out by not engaging and denying them line of sight. A sniper is going to have one hell of a time capturing a point if you won't show yourself AND if you leave, getting ready pounce, that particular sniper will be using hunter cloak/NAC, This means you're going to hear the infiltrator mating call and know from direction the sniper is approaching from. Same goes the Stalker, force them to play opposite of their strengths.

    3) If you engage in small scale battles or 1v1 it is inevitable that the rock, paper, scissor aspect of PS2 will become very noticeable.

    4) We have access to tracers, radar, spotting, the mini-map, kill-cam. It should not take much to figure out where this sniper is firing from or where the stalker is. If the infiltrator still manage to outmanoeuvre you then good on that player, well played.

    5) PS2 is a big game of rock, paper, scissors. If you only allow yourself to use rock expect a challenge. Also, no, this does not mean I suggest you spawn an infiltrator and hunt them down. I mean, you can but there's more than one way to crack an egg.

    Also, if we're going to attack the infiltrator on both the BASR and Stalker front something needs to be added to either improve lethality/viability at closer ranges and take a look at the overall design of the Stalker itself because a Stalker today has little else going for it than the element of surprise. Take that away and it is a weak infantry class forced to play with secondary only weapons.
    Furthermore, most of the suggestions about BASRs makes them worse than semi-autos...
  4. That_One_Kane_Guy

    I see the issue here, you think that an implant that showing you exactly where the enemy mines are is counterplay. It is not.
    Counterplay to mines is to not barge into rooms like a great elephant instead of using your eyeballs and paying attention to potential mine-spots. The Hard Counter is to equip Sweeper HUD and essentially all-but-eliminate the risk of dying to mines again.

    There is counterplay for dealing with both snipers and A2G, saying that isn't the case is intellectually dishonest.
    You are blatantly ignoring the difference in accuracy required for these two weapons in order for them to achieve that OHK.
    Saying of snipers: "oh, you just need to hit the head" is like saying of shotguns "oh, you just need to get close". It's not as easy as it sounds and often a lot more complicated than that.
    I know this is wrong, everyone else knows this is wrong, I'm pretty sure even you know this is wrong. Why you would even bother to make such a claim is puzzling. Normally I'd ask for evidence, I'm not even going to bother.
    Critical Chain is known to be broken, and I hope I don't need to explain why using it as an argument against snipers is invalid. Considering the Daimyo's damage profile, ammo count and unique bullet trajectory I will say that using it as an example of unskilled play is certainly a bold move.
    It depends on which gun you are using, how far away you are and how long their OS has been up. I believe a full-health, full-shield Heavy will tank a T3 Bolt to the face even at point-blank, and I absolutely have needed to double-HS Heavies with the Daimyo before.

    My position on Heavy Assaults has not changed, they are as strong as they need to be. They have no purpose other than combat, so in that department they should be powerful.
  5. Smallzz

    Do go ahead and explain to me the "counterplay" to someone with a cloak who can OHK you from up to 200m away, other than "well I know he's there now so I'll get him next time".

    If the bolter doesn't screw up you are dead 100% of the time. Nothing you can do to outplay it, you are reliant on him making a mistake not your own personal input. That means that you have zero agency in the fight, you are reliant on the bolter to miss the first shot.
  6. Skraggz


    In many instances in this game if your enemy doesn't screw up there will be no "counterplay" by your definition. Part of Online shooters is dying.... I know this idea is foreign. Counterplay in this game isn't always that you can immediately answer a threat, especially when you're a 5 second spawn away from pulling a hard counter to the problem.
  7. Scroffel5

    Dude, this is what I have tried to explain to people about aspects of the game. Its the same thing I say about Stalkers. It isn't balanced if it is reliant on the person making a mistake for you to win. The farther out you go to shoot a target, the better it is for an argument of balance. It is significantly harder to shoot a guy from 300m in the head while he is moving erratically, even while having good zoom optics, than it is to shoot a guy from 20-30 meters in the head with low zoom optics on a sniper.
  8. Scroffel5

    In most situations, even if you do everything you can possibly control right, you still may die. Fair. You did everything you could, but you should never have to rely on people's mistakes to succeed. If you miss your shots in a 1v1, both of you are Heavies, and he hits his shots, you can chalk that up to a mistake in aim for your part, even if you did everything right. Listen, I like Infiltrators. They are my main class, and I would definitely take advantage of a OHK on headshot weapon that I can use in close range if I was more selfish. Why would I want to give away something I benefit from unless it isn't balanced or fair in my eyes? I play at 10-20 FPS, half of that in larger battles. CQC bolts are the best thing I can do for my Infiltrator, as I don't have to rely on rate of fire, only rechamber time, and if I miss I am probably dead. Think about when I have to use literally any other weapon that isn't a bolt action. My RoF suffers because of low FPS, so they empty their mag before I empty mine, no matter my aim. I benefit the most from this, and I want it gone. Just think about it for a sec as to why.
  9. pnkdth


    From now on only use shotguns. No matter what situation. Now you might object because it is highly specialised and shouldn't be used all the time. Well, yes, so why not apply the same approach to a sniper. Why would you run in full view straight at a sniper from 200+ meters away? Seems to me you are putting yourself in a situation where the outcome is decidedly stacked against you? So why would you?

    The counter of 'not standing still' isn't just for snipers. Why? It is much easier for us to track a stationary target and only focus on recoil/CoF management. Take VR training, for example, in the VRT quite a lot of weapons end up feeling much better than they do in "the real world." This isn't just worse frames per second and lag but also the stationary nature of VRT targets and that they do not fight back. This fools us into thinking the weapon is better than it is because we do not experience the tenth/hundredth second of a difference in TTK we would again live targets.

    In other words, you have a lot of agency in this kind of fight and you've chosen to use inferior weaponry to engage a player using a weapon class optimised for long range firefights at your opponents optimal range. In short, it is your own fault.
    • Up x 1
  10. Scroffel5



    I can shoot the 44 heavy assaults in the faces, MAXs are pathetic and basically useless without support, they die just as fast as regular infantry. The infils however (which nowadays make up most of the "fight(s)"), are usually sniping from insane ranges/spots, and can easily escape after landing a few shots on them. They are a huge pain, staying back and forcing guys to respawn to stop the backcap, trolling you while you're actually engaging normal classes, camping terminals (O the skill).

    The only way to really deal with these parasites is nuke an area or go chase them down until they redeploy/your friends cap the other base preventing a backcap.

    Although those idiot infils love this, it's really boring and pathetic. A huge waste of time.[/quote]

    Stop referring to sniping as "trolling." Here is what I say about snipers: It isn't about how many people you can take out. It is about taking out the right people. Snipers are there to take out the right people. When those people realize there is a sniper in the area, they are to go looking for them, going on a wild goose chase, being taken away from the battle. They aren't trolling you because they kill you from range. Is a Heavy Assault with a Battle Rifle who is in sniper position trolling you? They are essentially doing the same thing.

    The Infiltrators who can kill from "extreme long range" can not cloak indefinitely. They can cloak indefinitely if you run Minor Cloak, as useless as it would be. For all that work, you could just get a Blackhand and snipe as a Stalker, which is annoying. Anyways, they are participating in the game. Anyone they kill or distract is adding to the game. If they distract a person away from the battle without getting any kills, that is one less person pushing the point, one less person making kills, one less person healing or repairing or flanking. It is one less person fighting, and that is good enough.

    As for the stupid point of them not doing recon, that is Stalkers. Stalkers do less recon than regular Infiltrators, but that is because they focus more on self preservation and killing key targets, not helping you. Also, stalking points in a big fight is pretty useless unless everyone is on the point fighting it out and it is contested. In a small fight, it just baits a Darklight, at which point you step off the point. It is still valuable to the battle, especially at a backcap, as it forces the enemies to go back to find you and kill you so they can cover some ground and take your territory. It is useful, but you don't think about technical bits. All you think about is "gun gun", "pow pow", "boom boom", "ah i dying", "overshield on teeheehee". You don't think about how hard it is to lead a moving target, or about target prioritization, or about dodging return fire and getting out of there.

    Also, IMO, redeploying should be removed. It only preserves your KDR and lets you leave a situation you don't want to be in, as long as you don't give or take damage for 10 seconds. It should either be raised to 30 seconds or removed. The only situation you really need it in is if you get stuck in a crack that you can't get out of, so there is that.
  11. Smallzz


    Explain to me how you know the invisible person is there waiting to OHK you.

    If I spend every second of my game moving in an inefficient, erratic manner because I have to 100% operate under the assumption that I'm about to be OHKd then I'd say that's something that is pretty imbalanced, game warping even.

    And no you don't have to be engaging a hill camper, we're talking about CQC Bolts. Did you forget which thread you were in? There is no "optimal range" in which to engage people with CQC BASRs, 0-200m is their optimal range. Unless you are insinuating that the counterplay is to instead book it to a hill with my own bolt action and hope to outrange them.

    Sniper rifles, prior to the introduction of the CQC BASRs, had significant drawbacks up close. Scope sway made hitting targets moving erratically even harder. Now that is a non factor because CQC BASRs can equip 4x scopes that don't suffer from scope sway.

    If the "counterplay" to CQC bolters is to run with my resist shield up in a zig zag fashion with Advanced shield capacitor instead of medkits and a darklight instead of ALS or a forward grip, then they've already won, because now I'm entirely Fing useless against anyone else and they can just choose not to engage with their stealth mechanic, which allows them to dictate when and where to fight.

    EDIT

    And I would like to also point out that classes with stealth are not allowed to equip Shotguns, and their OHK "range" is about 8x shorter than a CQC bolt, but I'm glad you took all the time to set up that non-sequitur.
  12. pnkdth


    I expect players to use the full breadth of tools available to beat me. I expect most opponents are aware of the infiltrator and BASRs. I am even able to consider that some parts of the map contains vehicles, turrets, mines, and other obstacles. This means there will inevitably be situations where I get outplayed or find myself fighting against insurmountable odds. Similarly, I expect HAs to use their overshield to beat me too. I do not lament or whine over this fact and accept it is a part of the class. Same is true for every other class/vehicle.

    I would not recommend nor expect to be equipped to deal with every situation all at once (even if the HA is exceptionally flexible). I also do not recommend excessively moving around and randomly activating the shield. Use common sense here.

    (RE: your edit): Point was, you wouldn't use a shotgun at every range. It is specialised, as is the sniper which is using a sniper rifle 200 meters away. Charging at it is not a good idea. Whether or not an infil can use one is irrelevant.
  13. Smallzz


    The only overshield that can save you from a max damage CQC bolt shot is the resist shield unless you are using ASC, correct me if I'm wrong. So no, there is no way to outplay being clicked on once from a stealth character that, based on your settings, you might or might not have had any time whatsoever to react to.

    The CQC Bolts are not specialized. The long range bolts are. Why do you keep addressing this discussion as if we are talking about some hill camper at 200m? Even the title of the thread is Close range BASRs. What makes CQC BASRs so deadly is not just the inherent strength of the weapon, it's the engage/disengage tools provided to the class that has sole access to the weapon. If engies were running around with CQC BASRs people would not be nearly as upset as they are about infiltrators doing it.

    How you manage to type so many words in one reply and yet maybe 5% of your reply is relevant to what I posted or the discussion is beyond me. I think you spend too much time conversing with yourself to know how to engage with other people properly.
  14. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Replying without quoting means you either are too lazy to click a simple button or are afraid of a counterargument. Which is it?
    Don't. Make. Yourself. A. Target. This means yes, zig zag when crossing open spaces. It doesn't have to be a lot, as the range increases the margin for error increases as well. Don't sit still with your **** in your hand staring down long angles or over ledges. Peek, shoot, and move. It's not rocket science. A sniper is just as dependent on the target not moving (or moving predictably) in order to get the kill at long range as the target depends on the sniper to miss.

    At 200m and above the bullet travel time is a significant factor, to the point where a target is perfectly capable of avoiding shots by accident. At this range a hit on a moving target is more down to luck than anything else, and if the first shot misses most players tend to become evasive (this is called counterplay) and the chances of a successful hit plummet drastically. If you are dying repeatedly to a sniper at 200m he is either a precognitive or you are an idiot. At 200m even an aimbot wouldn't consistently hit an erratic target.
    If that were the case no-one would ever bother moving in a firefight. What difference would it make? You're more accurate when you're stationary, anyways. May as well get that COF as small as possible and pray extra hard that our Cloaked Overlords are having an off day today. Your argument defeats itself, try again.
    • Up x 2
  15. pnkdth


    I cannot help if you can't pick up what I'm saying. Stay bad and keep dying, champ.
  16. Smallzz

    I take dumps in the morning that play PS2 better than you, buddy.
  17. Smallzz



    CLOSE RANGED BASRS

    CLOSE C-L-O-S-E CQC

    Someone get some crayons and draw a sniper next to a heavy with a 4x scope.
  18. TRspy007

    the shotgun has random spread. If you don't aim, unless you are in the guys face, you have a pretty high probability of not all pellets landing. They are almost just as annoying to use up close.
  19. TRspy007


    I don't think you really understood my point; let me simplify it a little more for you: infiltrators are gay.

    That's all that needs to be said. If you think infils are ok, that says something about you.
  20. Scroffel5

    But in close range, that doesn't truly matter, and all you gotta do is aim at center mass anyways. Semi auto shotties matter even less than the pump, as in close range, you can just fire again. The bolt action rifles perform better the farther away you are, to a point. CQC BASRs perform too well up close because of access to a 3.4-4x sight. That won't do. We can only give them iron sights or maybe 1-2x sights and that'll make them harder to use up close.