How the low TTK neuters weapon variety

I made this video to address common complaints about weapon variety. I offer the thought here that maybe it's not as simple as tweaking numbers, perhaps the core design of the game would not allow such tweaks - something that many people do not think about when posting here, especially about the special HA weapons.

I'm no game designer but to me, problems such as this are very obvious, so i'm surprised that other people haven't picked up on them.

GD-7F - the full auto pull goes up and left. Makes a huge difference. You have to learn the bullet spread.

The differences can be in how the gun feels. At least in the circumstance of the GD-7F, the gunplay is very different from the other weapons.

... and if there are multiple enemies and you have the chaingun already spun up...

You summed this up perfectly - "I'm no game designer but to me..."

BF3 has a similair low TTK, and each of its 70+ weapons all feel unique..

Havent tested alot of other faction guns but TR, you can tell difference between the T1 vs TRV vs SABR13 vs TAR, Carv vs TMG50 vs MSW-R. The differences arent as profound as BF3s weapon variety but its there.

Other people havent picked up on it because people do feel variety. I always hear on outfit chat people comparing guns and telling eachother how different guns preform differently.

Kind of like 80% of other carbines which have the exact same recoil pattern (sometimes to the right instead of left, though.) A different recoil pattern doesn't magically make a weapon "unique." It just changes which way you drag your mouse when firing full auto. Variety would be something truly unique, such as the MCG or Lasher if they didn't need to be kept useless for the sake of game balance.

Again, the difference in "feeling" in weapons in this game is nothing compared to many other games.

This game has 3 important differences on automatic weapons:
1: Recoil sways to the left
2: Recoil sways to the right
3: Recoil goes straight up

Taking a fully automatic weapon, tweaking some numbers values (rof, cone of fire, damage, velocity etc) and then tacking on one of 3 set recoil patterns is not variety. At their core, the recoil is the only thing that changes how a weapon actually feels. Aside from that, they all play the exact same way.

For example, take a recent addition to the game, the TR Jaguar carbine. This gun is the Lynx Carbine with recoil that goes upwards instead of rightwards, some minor numbers tweaks that no one will ever notice, and 50RPM. The choice between these 2 guns is simply "Do you prefer your recoil go up or to the right" because nothing else is of any consequence at all.

Different guns performing differently has nothing to do with variety. Minor stat differences and a choice out of the 3 recoil patterns isn't variety. Variety is an entirely different type of weapon, which this game doesn't have for the reasons I outlined in this video - while its predecessor, by most accounts, did.

I agree. The TTK is in a really good place right now and there's no good reason for changing it. Weapons already feel different.

As someone that plays ARMA, what's TTK?

(EDIT: It's a joke, I do actually know what TTK means.)

This is true, and it was brought up several times during Beta when it actually had a chance to be changed but it wasn't so yes were probably stuck with the kind of bland modern shooter combat design. If anything what the video really points out is how idiotic it was of them to try to port over iconic PS1 weapons when there is basically no way to make those guns work in this game with it's wanna be Call of Battlefield style shooting gameplay.

The other comments in the thread about slight differences in recoil or something making the weapons different is just sad to me. You can tell who has never played a game like Unreal Tournament or Tribes where weapons are actually different. lol

This isn't Ratchet and Clank, we're not getting guns that shoot demonic flaming ducks.

But we've got guns that shoot lasers, except it's just an art effect and they're almost entirely identical to TR weapons.

Infantry battle much better in PS1

Infantry battle should be the same as dogfights in the air, LONG

In PS1 it took 1 shot with tanks to kill infantry, so shouldnt it then take half a shot here?
Knifing took 2 stabs, same as in PS2, so then it should only need 1 stab..

Use maths to work out TTK for your average "hard hitter" the high damage and therefore also high recoil and low ROF weapons in this game. Do it for all ranges, now realise that hard hitters other than the SAW, which is an actual hard hitter, are a joke, since they do less DPS, are harder to use, often have larger bullet spreads, reload like a tank and their reduced ROF means the extra damage per shot still ends up with you doing less DPS, the recoil and bullet spread means they are less effective at long range, and the only place they are ok is mid range, but even then, they are around the same as other weapons. The only thing they can do is finish off enemies in one less bullet at certain ranges and from different amounts of health & shields.

Yes we need more weapon variety, actual choices based on how you want to play and it is as simply as tweaking some numbers. I switched from the Flare on my VS HA to the Pulsar LSW about a month ago, The Flare is a hard hitter, slow ROF, high damage values per shot, high recoil and large bullet spread... it also reloads like a tank. The LSW has low recoil, high ROF, average damage values for a VS LMG (there is very little damage variety between weapons, it's either Average or a little higher, no lows) large but not as large bullet spread and the reload time is normal. With the Flare I used to be over the moon if I could get 1 hour in and still have a k/d of around 1, with the Pulsar LSW I feel a little disappointed. Also take into consideration that the LSW is really cheep compared to the Flare, I mean it's not even a big deal to unlock using Certs... yea, that's why I imagine TR and NC get shot by a lot of LSW's and Orions, why use anything else. Orion is the best CQC LMG we have (the best in the game in fact) and the LSW is the easiest to use, most effective general purpose weapon (again, arguably best in the game).

Either the hard hitter need to be made less punishing, or health value need to be changed so that hitting with a bullet that does 168 actually makes a noticeable difference. I'd argue both the variety between weapon damage values and increasing the general amount of health people have would be a good step.

Theorycrafting weapon TTKs is rubbish unless everyone's using aimbots anyway.

Too many variables along the way.

But in BF3 each 'side' gets access to the exact same weapons, so this uniqueness is easily seen. When trying to balance uniqueness among three different factions, it gets much more complex and difficult to balance.

No they don't. All damage is the same with a few exception. Resulting in simple thing
M16A3, all you need. It does every job any other gun does. Maybe even better.
Same goes for otherclasses.

In BF3, there is no reason to use any of the other guns. Since there is always 1/2 in each kit that do everything.

For some reason made me laugh when I watched first part of the video, hip-firing and left-right stepping, checking KDR...

I agree, but i'm sure most players who are semi-decent at FPS would agree that below 2 second time to kill at most (and mostly lower since most fights are at ideal 0-20-30m range) is normal for this game with any weapon. This isn't a video about theorycrafting TTK's, we already know that the TTK is quick in this game. It's talking about what the low TTK means for weapon variety.

You obviously don't understand how the Lasher works, and if people moving makes you angry perhaps an FPS isn't for you.

Sounds like PS2. 1 or 2 good guns for every class that make the other guns pointless for general purpose use.

Low TTK favors those who have good situational awareness.

This is proper, and the way it should be.

In BF3 u basically got 2 patterns for guns
5.56 mm (high RoF, lower recoil, average dmg) good for burst/auto fire
7.62 mm (average RoF, higer recoil, high dmg) good for singleshot modes
Diferences between guns in same pattern were insignificant.

TTK is not so a problem, in BF3 its still lower than PS2, problem is cross-faction ballance that comes with adding variety.
Agree that faction special HA weapons dont have much use now, cause standard LMGs/Shotguns outperform them anytime.

Higher TTK's also favor people who have good situational awareness. Everything that makes a player good with a low ttk also makes that player good at a higher ttk. This thread isn't even about this, it's about weapon variety, so you can go and pretend to be good somewhere else.

TTK is the problem because it's the exact reason that variety is so hard to achieve in this game. That is what i'm saying. The HA weapons are just the only good comparison because the other weapons all follow the same model.

Getting pounded in the back for 30 shots does not count as situational awareness.

Your position is attempting to accomplish nothing but higher TTK, not weapon variety. Your emotion was the primary tell.