[Vehicle] HOW is the vanguard statistically the worst MBT

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Badgerbomb, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. helicoil

    What I was more responding to was the varying outcome of those same stat bases when compared over the other stat metrics like VKPU, KPH etc. IF there was truly an imbalance it would show itself no matter what metric you used to measure it with
  2. Goretzu

    Well imbalance is a strong word, in a similar vein to over or underpowered.

    If you look at some of the stats like Prowler vs Van in pure AV or pure AI you'd be getting into levels where terms like imbalanced might be used.

    But even in areas where what you're looking at is just the Van being on-par/sub-par the striking thing is how consistantly the same the stats all are, aKPH, aKPU, Q4aKPH, Q4aKPU, VaKPH, VaKPU all tending to show the same basic trends.

    Although the single most striking thing really is that the Van is basically almost never the top performer, no matter what stat choice you use....... yet still it gets nerf calls (in fact there is a thread basically calling for Van nerfs today!), much more than say the Prowler which significantly outperforms it in most ways and is only really beaten by it in raw average suvivability (which isn't unexpected given how highly taken the Shield is).
  3. ObsidianSoul

    Hah. When it comes to slowness, nothing beats the magrider. And 30 secs? You could say the same about the kill ratio then. Just ~.5 more kills. Just 2 more kills. And no. You see, other MBTs have problems hitting ESFs because they have awful elevation and bullet drop (magriders) or each shot doesn't do enough damage to kill one immediately (prowler). Only the vanguard has that. It's pretty much hitscan, like most NC weapons. You'll be lucky if you can down one ESF per week in a magrider's curvy splooge shots.

    Tank battles boil down to one simple thing: who fires first.

    And you have one very important advantage already when it comes to that: your shields can negate the fact that you may have been hit first and still end up alive. What else do you want? Someone to hold your hand perhaps?
  4. Goretzu

    Well you're kind of right and kind of wrong, which is largely where mobility comes into play and which is IMO the Van's Achille's heel.

    Because the Prowler is significantly more mobile than the Van and the Magrider is too (althuogh not exactly in the same way the Prowler is).

    I think you're exagerating the difference a bit here:

    3730 - Titan-150 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.99
    4008 - P2-120 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.30
    3460 - Supernova FPC | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.21

    The Van is clearly (and unsurprisingly) better, but equally clearly not that much better and not exactly a "hit scan" AA unit. :confused:

    Well an Anchored Prowler can actually just blast through a Van shield and win, but again this is where mobility comes into play (or lack of).

    If Vanguards were in fact the very easy clearly superior MBT you seem to believe it WOULD show up in the stats...... but it simply and conclusively does not do so!
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  5. ObsidianSoul

    Right, because the difference in aircraft KPH are also "minor". :rolleyes: I find it funny as well how you make excuses using the Prowler (which by the way, does not have a "mobility" advantage over the Vanguard, a deployed Prowler has exactly zero mobility).

    So how about the Magrider? Why does it still do better than the Vanguard then? It doesn't chew through your shields. It's slow, its main weapon is fixed, it has a humongous profile, projectile velocity is ****e, and it has far lower damage and TTK than the Vanguard. ¬_¬

    Moreover, these statistics aren't even reflective of which MBT is better compared to other MBTs. These are not solely about MBT vs. MBT fights. The k/d difference is very likely because of the prowler's unique ability to hit infantry better with their main cannons because they fire two rounds per volley. Have you considered that?

    You've nerfed our Mags to oblivion in the past years. Our maxes too. I think it's time you admit it might not be the equipment, but the player.
  6. Goretzu

    No the Van is significantly better at AA than the other two, however equally it is not some sort of "hit scan" AA death machine as you claim, because it isn't that much better at AA (if it was really as you claim it would be getting 2-3 times its current AAaKPH rates.

    3106 - VS Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.31
    3107 - NC Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.18
    3108 - TR Skyguard | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 6.00
    3730 - Titan-150 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.99
    4008 - P2-120 AP | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.30
    3460 - Supernova FPC | Aircraft KPH | Daily Average: 1.21

    A deployed Prowler has 0 mobility, absolutely true, but then it is also a much more powerful weapon platform (capable in fact of toe to toeing a Van with shield and winning - although, of course, that is not the end of Anchor benefits).

    A non-deployed Prowler is significantly more mobile than a Van and is still has much more DPS.

    Probably again because it is overall more mobile (and has a more stabilisation) - I dunno where you're getting "far lower" DPS though.

    AI-wise that is very much likely to be the reason the Prowler is so far ahead. However I don't understand why you seem to think understanding the reason WHY somehow precludes balance? :confused:

    I'm pretty sure I've nerfed nothing in the past years! :D Nor indeed am I saying nerf anything now.

    I'm also pretty sure the Van is actually perfoming on-par/sub-par irrespective of whether you think that the Mag has been "nerfed into oblivion" or not.
  7. WTSherman

    If 275 m/s is "hitscan", what does that make the 325 you can get on a Prowler? The Magrider and Vanguard also have practically the same DPS on their main guns, but the Magrider gets much better secondaries. Especially now that it has the VS Vulcan.

    As far as the shield being able to stop one shell, what do you expect it to do? Stop less than one shell? A shield that blocks zero damage would be pretty lame if you ask me. We can't really nerf it any more without making it irrelevant.

    I think you might want to go try playing a stock Vanguard before making all those wild claims about it being some kind of monster. It's just a slightly below-average tank that has a really satisfying punch when it's not reloading.

    I suppose a somewhat interesting approach to the Vanguard could be to keep its weapons' low DPS but make the extra armor more noticeable, maybe give it a tiny bump up to 70/68/35 (from 68/65/30). That shouldn't really change too much when the Vanguard is by itself, but might create interesting situations when the Vanguard is receiving repairs. 73/70/35 would be really interesting, but less likely to happen and more likely to have unintended consequences. But the idea would basically be by raising armor, there would be a more solid deal of "you take longer to kill stuff, but you have more time to take".

    Though that means NC would still have a problem with underpowered Harasser weapons, which seems to have been largely forgotten in this discussion. "Yeah but you have a shield/more armor" just doesn't apply when you stick the weapons on an NS vehicle. Though TBH that's just another example of why the Harasser and MBT shouldn't share the same weapon sets, what's strong on one might be weak on the other.
  8. asmodraxus

    Mags DPS is lower and the resistance of the Vanguard is slightly higher giving it more health effectively, have the extra armor on the condition the mag goes sideways quicker by 5-10 kph

    As to the weak weapons the NC have on the Harasser they should indeed be buffed to a similar level to that of the VS right?

    Enforcer-H 4.16
    Saron-H 3.38

    Enforcer-H 24.015
    Saron-H 19.08

    Canister-H 6.4
    PPA-H 4.59

    Canister-H 96.20
    PPA-H 74.5

    Right? Buff the NC weapons as they are under performing despite getting better kills per hour/unit then the Saron, and not just in a short period but over the last year or more.

    I would say the Mjolnir would need a buff according to Forumside but after looking at the VKPH/VKPU its doing better then the Vex and realistically the data is too small to tell.

    So its not the secondaries that cause the Vanguard to be weak, its not the platform as its got more armor than its competitors, more DPS then the mag, and its faster then the Mag, guess its merely the mentality of the players especially as the VKPH and VKPU is similar if not better then the mag...

    The only discrepancy is due to the long reload on HE/Heat/AP but having no increased splash radius hinders it against infantry slightly more, but then only an idiot would of missed that as the Prowlers fire rate and its kills against infantry do suggest that a rapid fire 1 hit kill weapon is better then a slow fire 1 hit kill weapon. Possibly as anything over 1000 damage (slightly more for a HA) is a waste as the target is already dead.
  9. Goretzu

    The problem is for some reason people seem to fixate on speed with the Mag and Van, when that isn't the issue (or rather it is only part of the issue), it is mobility (which is speed, acceleration, turning, strafing etc.; the whole shebang).

    For example, by the time you factor in Magburner, forward strafing, terrain (acceleration) and lateral strafing the Van is a much less mobile MBT than the Magrider.

    Van vs Prowler-wise the difference is much easier to compare.

    In either case the Van's bit of extra chassis armour isn't enough to make up for it, even with the shield it only brings it on-par/sub-par at best.

    Now currently it is ok, but when you start talking about nerfing the shield, well we've seen that when the shield was bugged, the Vanguard would need a pretty massive stock chassis buff if that were to happen.
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  10. Jake the Dog

    I'd like to point out that the mag and van both travel at 65-67kph with max racer and you know how to pilot a mag, so they are actually equal in that respect, the only difference ofc is that the mags main gun can only retaliate in the direction the tank is heading.

    Also when going downhill the mag doesn't benefit from that acceleration (as much) whereas the vanguard/prowler does.
  11. stalkish

    That can also be a blessing and not a curse.

    Ill give you an example.
    Harasser engages you in a mag, you use your mouse to turn your whole tank with your cannon to aim at the harasser, always keeping front armour towards the harasser.
    Now with a vanguard or prowler you have to aim 2 seperate parts of you tank correctly or be squashed on your rear.

    Now heres where the problem comes into it, when in first person view in a vanguard, prowler or lightning traversing your hull ALSO traverses your turret. So if a harasser is going from right to left on your screen and you turn your hull to keep your front end facing it, you have to compensate this movement with your mouse, instead of following as you usualy would any object passing perpedicular to your screen.

    Funny part is, when in third person the hull traverses WITHOUT disturbing the turret :confused:. Ive submitted countless bug reports on this, it must be a bug on 1 side, surely it cant be intended to work differently in first and third person, its till the same tank ffs.
  12. Goretzu

    This is why it is trickier to compare Mag/Van mobility that Prowler/Van mobility, but I'd say on balance the Mag is a significantly more mobile MBT.
  13. Jake the Dog

    It's mobile yes, but it's very nature can be its undoing. A couple times Ive been strafing in between shots and when Im about to fire my tail end bumps a tree or rock and threw my aiming off causing me to lose a few battles.
  14. Jake the Dog

    meh thats not really a blessing though, any half-decent tanker will always keep armor facing the harasser. Sometimes you have to face armor to deal with multiple enemies which can be an issue with the mag. Nevertheless I love the mag and Im not dissing its potential.
  15. ColonelChingles

    If you switch between 1st and 3d person views, you can catch your cannon "snapping" into position because whatever constraints between the two actually are different.

    For example, this is the lowest the Lightning cannon can point in 1st person from this position. About the middle of the column.


    But in 3d person, the cannon can depress much lower, being able to target the dirt right next to you.


    If you switch from 3d to 1st person, your cannon will "snap" upwards, I guess as soon as it realizes, "Oh silly me. I can't depress that low! Better fix that!"

    In my experience of trying to run away from Vanguards and Magriders in a Lightning, it's far easier to ditch a Vanguard than a Magrider.

    Vanguards have to deal with constant acceleration and deceleration due to terrain. Magriders more or less glide over smaller terrain features, meaning that in a typical cross-country move the Magrider can get there faster. Also Magburn.

    Magriders also feature better stabilization which allows them to fire on the move (especially important if I'm trying to run away because if they stop to shoot this gives me more time to leave).

    If you spawn a Vanguard in the VR, press "W" and ride it forward over a small bump, this is about the maximum displacement for the Vanguard:


    It rocks like a boat. But in a Magrider...


    You don't get rocked around so much. If my poor little Lightning was in front of the Vanguard, the Vanguard would have lost track of me and would have to spend time to reacquire me. The Magrider, on the other hand, can more or less keep me in its sights the entire time.

    This is the bump that all tanks crossed... not even a "big" one really, a bit taller than a Flash:


    That's the "mobility" of a Magrider. Can move fairly quickly and can shoot on the move better than other tanks.
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  16. patoman

    To answer the chalange of would I use a vanguard if it didn't have a shield, I would if in turn a prowler would forsake its ability. Its got a small disadvantage in speed but more armor., and better alpha, a perfect pop and shooter.

    Can a magrider go hull down? Yea that's right the tank with the most armor can, and it can't.

    Add to that, while it has a larger and longer profile, its lower to the ground than the prowler, they designed it to look like modern tanks vs the prowler that is a retro ww2 one, low to the ground makes you hard it hit even if the tank is larger, because any smart person will have just the front facing most opponents being that has the most armor of any tank.

    Though point would be still its ability is more usefull than the prowler in versatility, being that despire liking the vanguard I use power much more being primarily a tr person. I would estimate I use lockdown as a ability only half the time, because its definatly not something you can use for pop and shooting, or any kind of mobility. The other times not using lockdown I use the armor rep thing, and that thing is just a sort of gamble, it can save you if you are in that small margine of life and death escaping, though, its not the I win button of the shield.

    For quite some time I rarely used it, I use it more now, but the thing is that the lockdown ability not olny some battles can not use it at all, if you do use it, you play the tank differently, harder to exploit or support other than being a long range turret. Poping in and out of cover and shooting is a tried and true tactic, it means that the swarms of av that exists in any pitched battle doesn't blow you up, a ability that hinders defense can kill you.
  17. blackboemmel

    Do you have an "objective fact" that explains why NC-Lightnings and Liberators are on a par with or even better than the ones from the other factions? :D
  18. stalkish

    Thats kinda my point.
    Its a little harder in a turreted vehicle to keep your front facing & maintain 100% accuracy with 100% ROF simply because you have to compensate for the movement of the hull when tracing the taget with your mouse.

    Im not saying it particularly hard to do, just that is it a con to having a turret that a lot of people overlook. The mag works more like infantry in this respect.
  19. Goretzu

    Certainly, just statistically it would seem that being less mobile (and less stabilisation) in general/on-balance is the worse option.
  20. Dreez

    This is complete and utter BS. A Vanguard with 2/2 against a 2/2 Prowler with 5/5 lockdown will get desintigrated
    in 4 seconds... It takes ONE Engineer with 5/5 repairtool to keep up with an AP-Vanguards cannon, 2 Engieers to
    keep up with a 2/2 AT-Vanguard..

    You need several Engineers to keep up with a 5/5 lockdown prowler.. If its even possible, because a prowler with 5/5
    lockdown will put out 2500dps, unlike a Vanguard that puts out 400dps..

    Why Lockdown hasn't been severely nerfed is beyond me.