How does a damage nerf make something more "hit and run"?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Tar, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. Ziggurat8

    Not all of us. I like flying...sort of. I like doing strafing runs and dogfighting it out, but really only once in a while.

    The reality is flying is just not that good or that fun and you spend more time running away than actually fighting if you care at all about not getting shot down. At least that's how it plays out at big battles.

    It's caused me to basically use ESF as kind of fire and forget vehicles. I usually pull a scythe with the expectation of maybe flying it around a battle for a minute or so, maybe getting some kills and then bailing, drifter jet LA into the thick of the battle and then ground pounding for a bit. I just can't stand the constant running away spending more time avoiding the fight than actual fighting that most of this games air combat promotes.

    AA is mostly reactionary and is far better in the hands of a few infantry with lock ons than any other version because it costs nothing but provides pretty much the same level of deterrent as all the other forms.

    Skyguard is awful and I tell everyone I know don't bother. You're better off with a second burster arm a lock on or a sunderer AA gun.

    I really wish they would just bite the bullet and redo AA. But they probably won't. The whole A2G and G2A game is a mess.
  2. QQmore

    I like the Skyguard and pull it sometimes for fun. It's easy to get aircraft kills in if you know what your doing and can aim. Fun to shoot infantry with too :)

    People who say it's weak haven't looked at it's TTK on an ESF, it's faster than any other G2A option aside from things like rockets/ap rounds.

    Thing is, stupid players think oh it's dedicated g2a on a tank so I guess any aircraft that I can spot I should be able to burn out of the sky instantly. This is stupid and unreasonable. Use the skyguard correctly and it will reward you by clearing the skys in your hex. (guard the sky...skyguard.... whoa)
    • Up x 1
  3. Tar

    It would be none of the above. There would simply be no more air. But maybe that's what some people would consider a win.
  4. Haquim

    That depends largely on how it is implemented, and how aircraft would be changed in turn.

    For example the AA could be extremely easy to use and extremely powerful - basically skyguard with 200% more dmg - but also be terribly shortranged (for AA), like 200-250m or so (or whatever the range of Hornets is).
    An extremely powerful defense against ESFs, valkyries and low-flying Libs, but useless if a lib comes in flying higher and smarter.

    On the other hand it could simply pack a punch, but be unwieldy, so it takes quite some skill to use it and actually hit. Basically a Titan AP able to point up, reloading twice as fast, but with 50% reduced turret turning speed.
    Makes Libs, hover-morons and maybe even Gals scream in terror - but does virtually nothing to fast ESFs flying strafing runs.

    Another possibility would be to make ALL AA extremely powerful, except for whats freely available = Lock-on Launchers - nothing thats free should have exceptional power.
    And aircraft gets basically the same buff for A2G.

    This would lead to a game where AA is absolutely powerful
    Skyguards melting ESFs in one second. Libs in four. Galdrops may even become preventable.

    But also absolutely necessary, because if you walk around without AA cover or airsuperiority.......
    ESFs are gonna carpetbomb a whole squad if unchecked.
    Libs will decimate whole tank columns in mere minutes.

    The question is:
    What role should aircraft play in a fight??
    There are only two ways -

    - Either BOTH must be weak enough to be able to (kinda) coexist in the same fight.

    - Or BOTH must be extremely powerful - so that AA is able to reliably prevent the enemy to bring his airforce to bear
    AND that removing the enemy AA to use your aircraft is a tactical goal that is worth achieving/using assets for.

    Unfortunately it seems to be that DBG came up with a third answer.
    One that is - in my opinion - utterly ********. And shows how little understanding they have of their own game.
    The answer seems to be "fly around and leave the ground alone" since both AV and AI have been nerfed.

    But lets check a few things:
    This is a game about capturing bases, which is done by capturing control points. Right?
    Only infantery can capture control points. Correct?
    So the only way for vehicles, in this case aircraft, specifically ESFs, to ifluence point capture is to influence infantery somehow. Still following me?
    Ways to do that:
    1. Kill infantery
    2. Support infantery (radar for example)
    3. Destroy things that do 1 or 2 or 3.

    1. Has been quite heavily nerfed in bigger fights, since the increased threat of AA makes fast target aquisition a must. Small fights are virtually unchanged...
    3. Well.... aside from other aircraft, Sunderers, which are the TANKIEST ground vehicle in existence, are now protected by a 25% dmg nerf on ESF AV weapons.

    I don't fly a lot anymore, but the only meaningful way I can imagine for ESFs to impact fights right now is to shoot down Liberators and clear out biolab landing pads, since thats pretty much the only place where target aquisition matter not.

    If anybody disagrees please feel free to write an analysis why I'm wrong. Or other proposals how A2G and G2A could work out.
    Writing something like "You're wrong skyknight scrub" or "You're just salty you lost your ez mode" is not gonna cut it.
    Also both would be wrong - I'm playing infantery after all....
    • Up x 2
  5. DonVito70

    I believe if they wanted to increase the TTK and force it into a more hit and run style of gameplay they should have further increased the reload time, not reduce the damage.
    As for its effectiveness against infantry they could just reduce the blast radius.
    • Up x 1
  6. Tar

    wait, what?
  7. Haquim

    Thats a bit short, what part of it is confusing you?

    Or better: How does this statement conflict with what you know? (In case we're talking values like HP and armor)
  8. Tar

    I'm not sure what 25% you mean.
  9. BoatsFriends

    You Win! "Yes, Skyguards are that terrible." I love you!
    • Up x 1
  10. Danath

    Anchor MAX has better DPS.
    Your reward is no kills but G2A ribbons. Great for NOT getting medals nor completing directives. Yay
  11. Haquim

    Ahh that.
    Hornets, the ESF AV weapon were nerfed from 2000 dmg to 1500. So a 25% nerf.
    Everything else CAN dmg vehicles, but is not good enough to actually make a dent in a sundy...
  12. NubCannon

    What are you complaining about, the hornets still do 3000 damage per burst. thats like 2 decimator rounds. thats almost 10 raven shots (5 bursts), Not to mention if you're using them as A to G then you can almost hover over the enemy where they cant shoot you and rain fire down on them. Not to mention how good these are for popping galaxies and libs.
  13. Haquim

    How good they are for popping galaxies and libs?....
    Hover over an enemy until he dies?
    2 Decimator rounds?

    Man do me a favor and fly. You will quickly notice that nothing you just said is, in fact, true.

    If you try to shoot a LANDED liberator with hornets, the crew will OUTREPAIR YOU.
    If that liberator is flying you have another problem - namely that the hornets are "laser guided".
    Sounds good in theory, until you notice that the "laser guidance" doesn't follow the object you point at - the point your rockets will fly at is the first immovable object (= ground, rock, building, mountain, propably also trees) in the direction you point at.
    Not a big drawback when shooting at a tank from above, barely even noticeable, but it makes them more useless at hitting flying targets than if they were dumbfire.
    And its not much different for gals, except they are easier to hit but take twice as many hits...

    Regarding that "just hover around 'till he dies"...
    Tanks, unless you hit them in the rear, now also outrepair you. Or at least MBTs with a 2 engi crew can.
    But chances are you will never notice that they can, because another tank 70 m away will BLAST YOU OUT OF THE SKY for being stupid enough to hover around. They won't even need AA to get rid of you.

    And the two decimators.... there is something called resist values.
    Liberators die after two decimator hits afaik - they will still laugh after eating their 4th hornet though.
    The difference regarding tanks is smaller, but they too take more dmg from your 1350 dmg decimator than a 1500 dmg hornet.
    Unfortunately I still don't know the exact values of the hornets and the wiki I usually use to read up on resists doesn't have it either.
    AFAIK it is still accurate, at least I didn't notice any big errors yet:

    That aside, even if you were actually RIGHT, I would still complain.
    You make something HIT & RUN by giving it high burst and a high downtime until it can burst again. Arguably its DPS should be rather low.
    You DON'T make something HIT&RUN by decreasing its damage total = Both burst AND DPS. Thats just a straight up nerf that accomplishes ONE thing: Making it weaker.
  14. NubCannon

    I've never had a problem hitting libs and galaxies with the hornets. once the hornet's reload speed is maxed, and the pilot figures out what they are doing the hornets become very effective at taking out everything shy of other esfs. This might be a problem with your flying style, i personally max cruising speed, this way i can enter and exit combat as i need to. I run max stealth and maxed fire suppression. I'm usually back and forth between the rocket pods and the hornet missiles, unless i know im going into Esf to esf battles, then i use the coyotes. i like using the rocket pods more often than the hornets because they're more versatile. but the hornet missiles are fantastic for quick runs against MBTs or larger air vehicles, even after the update.
    Instead of trying to sustain damage i focus on high burst damage, for anti air combat i get as close as i can, dump both hornet rounds and switch to rotory. this often results in a very quick kill against esfs. as for libs the trick is to fly above them. you want to be high enough above them that the tail gun cant see you but close enough that you can maintain fire on them.
    galaxies are easiest from the belly or lower front. for those i usually end up upside down.
    as for getting shot down by tank shells... that's not because of your weapons, thats your lack of piloting abilities. if you're being out repaired, shoot the engineers, its not that difficult. especially if you are in a scythe with PPA or a reaver with the air hammer.

    The purpose of the nerf was to keep ESFs from hovering above tanks, so that they would strafe their targets more. also to reduce their anti infantry potential.
  15. Haquim

    How many hornets does it take to kill a Liberator?
  16. Tar

    yeah, that I know of. I thought you were talking about something truly Sunderer-specific. Nvm then.
  17. Eternaloptimist

    Um, just a late thought, he ain't gonna die when you hit him so you better run before he shoots back?

    [statements of the obvious my specialty :)]
  18. Haquim

    No, the only sunderer specific thing I was talking about was that the sunderer itself. Its resist values + 45% (standard) armor in every direction already made it the tankiest vehicle in the game.
    Since it is the only spawnpoint vehicle it is also the most important to destroy.
    So the most important vehicle that already was the hardest to destroy... is now 33% harder to destroy for ESFs specifically equipped to do just that...
  19. TR5L4Y3R

  20. TR5L4Y3R

    I generally dislike how the game doesn't reward you for supressive fire but only for scaring air away

    personaly i don't mind there being comparibly weak weapons that don't quickly kill or destroy as merely keeping the oponent away can be already enough from gaining territory ... the problem is when that style of play is not rewarded in some way especialy when you use weapons that are merely for supplementing to a squads fireppower