How does a damage nerf make something more "hit and run"?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Tar, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. Tar

    Could someone explain the logic behind this?
    In a vehicle that's already the most hit-and-run thing in the whole game ALREADY, in a weapon that has an artificially shortened range and long reload time ALREADY (a hit-and-run weapon by definition), what sane person comes and decides nerfing the damage makes it more so?
    • Up x 2
  2. Ziggurat8

    Basically because it takes you longer to kill something then it does for something to kill you. You can't just "tank" the damage and get the kill like you can if the ttk on your weapon is less than the enemies ttk on you.

    Issue I see with it though is that Hornets kind of require you to hold still to keep them on target. Tracking and leading a moving target while moving yourself with the very slow moving wire guided Hornets is very difficult.

    Using Hornets I generally slow down, fire, guide them in, then fly around to another position and do it again. I didn't really just hover in one spot but I guess I could see people doing that.

    25% less damage means you have to land at least 1 more shot on anything that took 4 hits to kill (most things) so an extra reload at least. The TTK of most weapons against ESF is such that you're going to die long before you get 2 Hornet reloads(7-9 seconds) while hovering.

    Hence, no more hover spamming and more hit and run.

    This is just my opinion, but I think this has more to do with the MAX charge nerf than anything else. You could kill a burster MAX in 2 Hornet hits. Charge was the only thing saving them from certain death vs hornets. Now it takes long enough (3 hits and they have to be direct shots cause the splash is terrible) a burster will kill a hornet ESF if he just hovers over the burster.
    • Up x 1
  3. Eranorz

    Right, except sadly that's just not how it works

    When you try to "hit-and-run" a vanguard or other MBT, they just wait until you fly away, get out and rep in 3 seconds and laugh at you.

    It's incredibly simple logic really:
    If sustained damage won't kill a certain class of armor, intermittent damage sure as hell won't.

    @OP: It's just the half-baked, asinine explanation the devs pasted onto a nerf that was on PTS for all of a week's time for testing.
    • Up x 3
  4. Tar

    Well now I can't kill a burster max because all I see are blinding explosions and behind them blinding barrel flashes. The Thermal nerf was more than good enough to stop ESFs from tanking Bursters, and btw. still it almost never happened, double-direct-hitting a max that isn't standing still was extremely risky already.

    To make something more "hit-and-run" I'd understand longer reload or faster travel time, not less damage. That's just a plain nerf.

    Anyway now trying to solo-kill a liberator is laughable, 2 engineers will outrepair you even when hitting with both nosegun and the hornets, that just shouldn't be happening. Before, they would almost outrepair you already, but at least you saw them and could endanger them.
    • Up x 1
  5. Crayv

    I would argue repairing is OP and is why things like C4 have to be as strong as they are because "deterrence" in this game just doesn't work when people can repair any vehicle in a matter of seconds with a magic glue gun.
    • Up x 6
  6. Necron

    ESFs do the SAME thing. Take flak, fly away and repair and do it again. The problem is a competent tanker or ESF pilot are in almost ZERO danger unless they run into several burster MAX units at once or a few skyguard.
    • Up x 2
  7. Ziggurat8


    I only really feared a good hornet ESF in my magrider, it would take them way too long and too much ammo to kill me with anything else, not to mention repping between ESF reloads.

    New hornet should be about the same. Just drive around while they tickle me, then hop out and repair, wait for them to get bored or shot down.
  8. zaspacer

    Oracle: "But... you already know what I'm going to tell you."

    The statement as it is written does not make sense. Trying to make sense out of it is not necessary: it is nonsense. Trying to figure out why this nonsense was written is a whole different issue, and one that involves speculating, and ranges from clueless, incompetent, lying, lazy, etc. (aka the standard reasons things go "wrong" in game dev)

    I think the statement technically does make sense if you edit it. Take out the "pushed them more toward hit and run gameplay" and change the "reduces their effectiveness against infantry" to "contribute to further reduce the Hornets effectiveness overall". The "pushed them more toward hit and run gameplay" doesn't make any sense in the context of either the change, the practical usage of Hornets, or the rest of what was written there. And the "reduces their effectiveness against infantry" leaves the statement kinda spin doctored, and not just coming out and saying the big picture.

    The Dev Note should have read...

    Dev Note: These changes keep Hornets as technically the ESF secondaries with the highest burst damage potential, but the lengthened time to kill helps discourage hovering above targets for prolonged periods, and contribute to further reduce the Hornets overall effectiveness.

    OR probably...

    Dev Note: We successfully nerfed the A2AM and the Coyote into extinction. Now we are trying to do the same with the Hornet. Stop using the Hornet or we will nerf it more until you stop using it.

    Or maybe...

    Dev Note: We nerfed the Hornet. Now you gotta fly around in Gank Squads and jump/farm/swarm/overwhelm the same target at once.
  9. adamts01

    Because AA is pathetic. So instead of make air equally pathetic, they should have fixed the source of the problem, pathetic AA. But that would require actual work, and a brain.
    • Up x 2
  10. Atrus2g

    WHO, please tell me WHO is sitting there hovering over a battlespace rocketing away sans consequence? WHERE are these inept farm-my-feckless-****-now players that get culled and come back oblivious to what just happened?

    Have I as a vet pilot swooped in outta-nowhere style and killed a sniper or 3? Yes of course. Have I as infantry been killed by a pilot doing exactly the same to me? Yes of course. In BOTH of these scenarios folks wise up pretty quick and pull burster maxes, HA with lockons if the nanites are tight, use cover, camp-and-shoot rockets from the spawn room, grab vehicles with AA etc. I dont remember the last time I knew air was loitering over a battlespace and didnt think to counter it immediately. Why is the game rewarding the obtuse by making rockets weaker and infantry impossible to detect at night?

    Armchair observer right now as my characters jersey is in the rafters, hoping they realize the general sentiment on this and re-examine their decisions.
  11. AxiomExotic

    As it should be, you try to hornet me we will both just get out and when i see you trying to get at the back i just turn my vanguard around and laugh at you because i can outrepair your damage.
  12. entity009

    I think the idea is that you swoop in to a battle and land your missiles and get out, not that you try to solo kill MBTs. You should be looking for a target already under fire, land your missiles then come around for another pass. In a battle with even two hornet packing ESFs this could be devastating. Many MBTs are going to be running full AV and may not even be able to return fire unless you fly too low.

    I think the hoovering and repeatedly rocketing was more referring to low population situations with minimal GtA where ESFs where terrorizing small fights.
  13. Eternaloptimist

    It's not about how the target will react to your attack, it's about you not being able to hang around for longer in order to do the damage. Maybe you are now more limited to finishing off damaged vehicles or contributing to tank v tank fights by strafing?

    I get esf and pilot kills nearly every time I pull out my A2G launcher. Needs a bit more concentrated firepower (or a dumb pilot) to hurt Libs but generally, I would not describe AA as pathetic. I see too many airplanes exploding from AA fire to think that

    Exactly. Only really lucky or dumb pilots seem to do this. There are a few around and I even got one with a mag dump from a Rocklet recently (he'd obviously taken damage already). They were just asking for it.
    • Up x 2
  14. CNR4806

    There isn't any logic.

    "Hit and run" means "go in, pound the **** out of the target, go out", while nerfing the damage increase the loiter time around any given target.

    I'm not entirely against the whole NERF HORNETS affair, but as usual the devs are bad at using the right reason or at least the right excuse to do it.
    • Up x 1
  15. stalkish

    Ive yet to be given a plausible reason as to why the fastest most agile craft in the game got access to dual laser guided decis in the first place.

    Until i get that i wont give a reason for the nerf.
  16. Moz

    Its simple, you cant see the targets from as far away meaning you have to get closer to be effective rather than farming from relative safety....

    Pretty sure that's what they are getting at.

    Weather its true or not remains to be seen.... ESFs needed nerfing against ground. Only real question is:

    Is this enough when coupled with the Hornet nerf..... I would argue its about right.
  17. Liewec123

    i agree with you completely, i don't even fly too much but hornets were already subpar to lolpods,
    now there simply isn't a reason for hornets to exist.

    if you want low exposure time you don't want a wireguided weapon,
    so even for quick strafing runs and ambush tactics lolpods are better.

    my only idea is that this patch was phase 1 in making faction specific items more prevalent,
    since we saw nerfs to quite a few cross faction vehicle weapons (like bulldogs Hornets and furys),
    it could be a push to get people using faction specific stuff.
    though that is probably just hopeful optimism XD
  18. Eranorz

    Fastest, most agile, squishiest.

    ESFs are the epitome of what a "glass cannon" ought to be, or at least they were before hornets got obliterated. Hornets actually gave them the ability to influence ground fights by taking out armor, now it's not worth trying really as you don't do enough damage fast enough to be a relevant threat. Your damage gets easily out-repaired by an MBT and moreso by a sunderer.

    I see this argument a lot, but my simple question in reply is this,
    Since when is anything in this game balanced around low-pop fights?

    This is Planetside. Large-scale warfare and all that. Balance should always revolve around 48-96 or 96+ fights, not some farmer on Hossin plinking n00bs at a 12-24 base (none of whom can be bothered to pull AA).

    You can balance things for low-pop or you can balance things around legitimate high-pop "Planetside" fights, you can't do both.
  19. StaHoo33

    NERFSIDE 2 Hits again! Community is strong here so I believe after another 2-3ish years of salt, DB will look into it, now they probably look to nerf tanks even further so seeing infantryman on battlefield mean only one thing - quick death for vehicle, then they will boost heavy to be able take out half platoon himself and with help of RocketRifleFairies maybe even 2 platoons, then when they reach point that snipers will be one-shotting MBT's and Gals they will close game and never ever say Planetside word again...
  20. LaughingDead

    Simple; you hit them and then run because **** locks on to you or spams flak, said people spamming calling you a skilless ****ter when the irony is how their weapons work.
    • Up x 1