How do you feel about unlockable weapon upgrades using SC?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Lavans, Jul 5, 2014.

  1. Lavans


    That is a wonderful outlook, and I agree with you 100% on that.
    However, think about it in the perception of a new player, especially one that does not have disposable income.

    If a new player loads into PS2 and sees how excruciatingly long it takes just to progress, it is very likely they will become disgruntled with the game, as many of us have already. If they keep getting rocked by players with fully decked out equipment, and the new player still has nothing more than starter gear, they will automatically attribute that to a pay to win model and cease to have fun.

    If a person does not have disposable income, but finally earned enough $$$ to support the game they like, they may very well not support PS2 simply because it is punishing to non-paying, yet potentially future, customers.

    Personally, I have noticed that PS2's population is dwindling. The nature of a F2P game means that it has to be inviting for a new player to join and ultimately support the game. The less inviting it is for a player, the less they are likely to stick around and support PS2. I don't want to see this game die, nor do I want to consider 24-48 v 24-48 battles to be considered the new "Massive Battle". That said, PS2 needs something to both keep old players hooked while simultaneously gathering new fans. Opening upgrades to SC purchases with the currently ludicrous cert costs is not the way to go about keeping PS2 afloat and profitable.
  2. Gleerok


    I do agree with your view. Pushing SC to peripherals that affect gameplay is starting to push it. They should stop it at that.

    About the inviting aspects of the game, well, they are working on that. There is a new "Mentor" squad system aimed at low BR players, which will reward leaders with bonuses, and, perhaps, those new players too. On my view, it should!

    Players also receive a "free" gun after a certain BR, by answering a quizz, remember?

    And some peripherals cost 5 Certs 1x red dot on some guns if I remember well.

    I think the game is accessible. At first I thought I'd be crushed by players with awesome set-ups, so I stuck with supporter roles, engie/medic until I got some stuff. Later, I found out it was much more about positioning and awareness. Today I get a low BR character (my Emerald NC for example) and snipe the hell out of people with it if I want, even if I didn't spend a single cert on items.

    Of course, players with advanced set-ups does level the difficulty. But this is a nature of MMOs I guess.

    Still, I'm sticking to the position that: SC for peripherals is starting to push it, and SC expansion should stop at that.

    I don't want SOE to go down, and they are more than right for promoting SC purchases. I just think that if SC gets into gameplay to the extent of hurting it, the game will eventually die because the mass playerbase will basically disappear.

    If one thing, they should introduce more vehicles and guns (with SC only special aesthetic versions). That will, perhaps, help with SC sales.
  3. BeyondNInja


    Just playing devil's advocate here: as long as no upgrades are purchasable through SC only, why does 'Pay-to-win' really matter at this stage of the game?

    Most of the playerbase who's played consistently for at least a year will have enough certs to max out their favourite playstyle and enough spare to make most other playstyles/vehicles at least viable. Once you get to about 100k certs most players will have run out of things they want to spend certs on and just end up just blowing them on random ****.

    Who cares if someone doesn't need to grind for weeks/months to make an alt viable for a change of scenery on a diff server/faction?
    Playing a single faction gets boring quickly after passing BR100 and with the current state of some servers...

    Who cares if a new player who has plenty of disposable income wants to get on par with players with a year's more playtime?
    They'll still lack the experience gained through playtime of everyone else, and membership xp bonuses do more for prestige than having specced out certlines/weapons. Besides certlines in PS2 shouldn't be balanced around being hard to unlock.


    The reason I've never bought anything non-cosmetic other than NS weapons for alts is that I didn't want to ruin the game for myself.
    But if someone isn't as goal focussed and has less spare time than I did why does it matter if they bypass part of the grind?
  4. Lavans


    If long term players have been around long enough to max out their favorite playstyles, then why would SOE open up upgrades to SC? Do you vote in favor of SC unlockable upgrades out of naivety simply because it doesn't affect you as a short term consequence?

    This isn't about me, you, or any other long term player. This is about new players. One could argue that opening upgrades to SC is SOE's way of letting new players compete with old players, which would be great, but only if said upgrades didn't take such a horrendously long time to acquire without the use of real world money. Sure, there needs to be an incentive to purchase equipment and upgrades with SC, but that incentive shouldn't be to avoid a 10-20+ hour grind.

    People don't like P2W. It doesn't matter if you or I view PS2 as P2W, since we have already contributed our share and unlocked what we want to unlock.
    What matters is how a new player perceives PS2. Most people won't touch a game that they perceive as P2W, and ultimately add PS2 to their list of P2W F2P titles to outright avoid. Whats worse is if people go around tooting the P2W horn in regards to PS2, then that may ultimately cut into the potentially new player base needed to keep this game populated and ultimately profitable as a result.

    By being pro SC equipment/upgrade purchases with the current cert cost for unlocks, you are indirectly saying you don't care about the long term consequences and don't care about how new players could eventually view PS2. I have been playing PS2 for nearly 2 years now, and I would like to keep playing PS2 for years to come. I don't want to be sitting at my desk a year from now wondering where everyone went, because the scary truth of the matter is that I'm already seeing the population thin by a considerable amount, and the issue of SC equipment/upgrade purchases only compounds that problem.
  5. Dracorean

    The pay to win concept is when unique unobtainable items are available only to those who pay a certain amount of funding to acquire, do not confuse 'pay to win' concept with 'pay or play'. Planetside 2 follows this pay or play concept by the book quite well, either you spend money to quickly acquire something or earn it through playing the game which the end result would be the same, both options will allow you to acquire that item.

    Examples of pay to win games are found with Perfect World Games, however even with those there is a way to acquire the purchasable items through play through of the game however these 'purchasable items' are much stronger than the items you can get from a rare drop. Aside from that pay or play, either way the concept rely on you either spending time or money, and if you aren't close to death, you can spend time.
  6. Lavans


    Then people should revisit the concept of pay to win.

    Players should not have to face a situation where it takes them 8+ hours to unlock a single upgrade for a single weapon that could have taken another 8+ hours to unlock, especially if those 16+ hours can be avoided by throwing money at the game. It was alright to have those unlocks be obtainable via certs only, because players were required to earn them. But using SC to purchase those unlocks completely defuses the concept of having to earn your upgrades and having to work at progressing your character.

    Paying to avoid grind is something that many people consider to be another form of pay to win, and that is where Planetside 2 is heading.

    If you are OK with paying to avoid grind in PS2, then are you OK with paying to reach maximum level cap or obtaining the highest tier armor and weapons in other MMOs? Would it be OK to be able to purchase max level skills at level 1, and have max level damage as a result? Because that's what all this basically amounts to.
  7. Dracorean

    Yes I'm fine with it, despite how unbelievable it might sound, people are willing to throw hundreds of dollars (Which can be used for other things) into the game due to the fact that they do not often play it as much in order to get the things 'quicker' that money goes to the devs to keep the game running. The profiteering efforts SOE has been focusing on is to try to even the odds. There is a benefit to playing to acquire those items by putting hours into the game, and that makes you 'better' so playing a game comes with its own reward. Eventually you could be making so much more by simply playing that making a purchase to a game would become pointless unless its for cosmetics. However the pointlessness in this topic is rather absurd as a game "Needs" money and income to survive and it is the choice of a player to spend his or her money on a game. Not that of another player that would disagree with the concept of expanding profit gaining ventures that would keep the game afloat.

    Case in point, it does not matter, and it should not matter, you end up the same rank after playing the game without 'membership' as you would with a person that had 'membership' except the guy without played longer, and thus was able to promote time and effort into getting better with the game. A good example how my point shows is with the game World of Tanks. If you purchase a tank with real currency, you will be given a vehicle which has strengths and weaknesses like any other vehicle, difference is that you are put in higher ranked games, however these people who 'skipped' the lower ranked vehicles have poor battle ratings, win ratios, and high death ratios, in terms they suck. In Planetside2 the concept is similar, however everyone ends up with the same thing in the end when it comes to equipment.

    Either you support the game or not, to support it requires funding. Even having a negative opinion about it just adds to how much support a player truly has over a game they play and enjoy. If it doesn't effect you then it will not be a problem for you, even if some people make it sound like it is, it truly is not.
  8. MuNrOe

    They need to put more into the long term investment of the game. Stuff that only can be earnt by playing in game. No advantage given to paying or non paying customers. Just the individual player and what the do.


    The CR system from PS1 was a perfect example of this. (Achieved after maybe 2 years of playing the game with stages in between)

    http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/index.php?title=Command_Rank


    As well as the Merit System you could wear on your chest of your PS2 character. (Make the high levels hard to get please 100k kills or more for example)
    http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/index.php?title=Merit_Commendations

    Not this get 5 kills and win some xp. Something that put all players on equal basis with rewards only obtained from time and skill dedicated to the game and its player base. This will improve the longevity of the game.

    They haven't released a gun or weapon or upgrade that you cant buy with certs so sorry. Not pay to win. If they ever did that
  9. Lavans


    I never said that support doesn't require funding, nor am I against making purchases to continue to support the game.

    What I am against however is the fact that people can now outright buy what is the equivalent of high tier equipment that would have otherwise taken days of grinding to acquire. It's just that simple.

    Regardless, my personal standpoint is not what this thread is about. This thread is about perception. People perceive this move as SOE taking PS2 into a pay to win direction. That direction always pushes new players away, which in turn pushes away potentially new customers.

    It doesn't matter if you agree if this move makes PS2 pay to win. It doesn't matter if you like playing pay to win games. What matters is that SOE is starting to paint a negative image about PS2. A good number of people disagree with this move by SOE, so what do you think newcomers will think about it? Are you saying that you don't care about the opinion of others on the matter, especially new customers, who help to support the game we enjoy to play? Are you saying that you don't care that this move could quite possibly discourage people from joining PS2, and as a consequence, receive less financial support?
  10. Dracorean

    As I said earlier, this really isn't a step to pay to win, in fact its just shows how they are being careful as to avoid it entirely. You believe that paying as apposed to more time is unfair, well given that dependent on what you do in game, its not difficult to make certs in this game, 250 exp = 1 cert, so that is about every 2 1/2 kills, 2 1/2 revives, a service ribbon, and so on. Here's another example of a pay to win scenario, lets say that the night vision scope can only be obtained by station cash. It doesn't offer zoom but it allows people to see in low lit environments. Even 'if' they make it so that you can pay to get a silly ability or defensive attachment to your character or vehicle, that's still not a pay to win concept because we still can use certification to obtain it.

    What I find frustrating, is when people confuse and throw terms such as 'pay to win' around when currency gets involved with progression of a game. Personally I dislike pay to win games because I don't normally have money to purchase such items. So I have to use the old stuff that I got for playing the game. Personal opinions aside, what SOE did, isn't in all a step in the direction of a "pay to win" scenario. It still follows the rule as I stated before, by the book "Pay or Play" scenario that allot of MMO's seem to be doing their best to focus on now a days.
    • Up x 1
  11. Lavans


    When the time required to earn high caliber unlocks is extremely high, yes, it is unfair to just buy them outright.

    If a person earns 250 exp per minute, which is what I would like to consider average (though likely higher than if a player was not subscribed), then it would take them up to 500 minutes (or approximately 8.5 hours) to unlock a weapon upgrade. If you compound that with a 1000 cert weapon (16.5 hours to unlock @ 250 exp/min), you're looking at a 25 hour unlock time.

    I don't know how many times I must stress the fact that the amount of time required to unlock weapons and upgrades is atrocious.
    At least before, people still had to earn their upgrades, even if they purchased the weapon.

    IMHO, if SOE is going to make unlocks purchasable with SC, then they should at least lower the cert requirements for some upgrades to compensate. That would alleviate about 70% of the issue I have with their move.
  12. Dracorean

    Well I'm taking note of that, and there are people who feel the same, but that variable is differs from player to player, usually it would take me a little over 2 hours to acquire enough certs for a weapon attachment given if I was taking part in heavy combat zones, however I have heard of players that are incapable of making 100 certs in one day. Some players can make more certs in less time and I am speaking of those who don't use membership. Now reason as to why I'm not putting emphasis on that variable is mainly because of what I sated in this paragraph, it differs too much to take under consideration, in other words; "That sounds like a personal problem."
  13. DorianOmega

    Since they are starting to let people buy blatant advantage giving attachments then it should be fair to be able to unlock cosmetics with certs, pretty sure this would make things nice and even.
  14. Scett


    this is pretty much what it boils down to.
    in al honesty i stopped giving a hoot about how to unlock this stuff a long time ago.

    at some point you're going to stop focussing on getting more certs and start focussing on enjoying the the game and getting better at it.
    im currently at the part where im just certing out my flash for the hell of it, i wanna try some stealth hit and run tactics at enemy sundie's but im not forcing myself to "get more certs ASAP or else it's not fun"

    end of the day a BR 100 with an uncerted gun is much more likely to make you eat dirt then a BR 1 with one that is fully certed.
    (and yes, i am well aware that BR isn't always the most accurate measurement of skill, but currently there isn't much else to measure it by ingame)
  15. Akashar

    About that, I don't have much time to play, but a bit of money. Then again, I already have unlocked everything I need so that won"t be for me, but I'm not the only one with a job, so less time but a bit more money! :/
  16. MrNature72


    Totally agree. It's not Pay2Win, it's Pay2Speeditup. You can still earn everything that matters legitimately.
    • Up x 1
  17. MrNature72


    Yeah, I suck at making certs hardcore.
  18. Halkesh

    SOE need money, nothing more, nothing less.
    You can still buy attachment with cert. I don't think planetside 2 is a pay to win.

    Finally, I prefer to see attachment available with SC than the big "UPGRADE NOW".
    • Up x 1
  19. Darkwulf

    I am 100% fine with it. You people have to remember Sony has to make money somehow with their free game they spent millions developing (guessing on the amount).

    Think about the money they have to pay out to keep the servers running, paying staff, developers, etc.

    Yeah I don't give two ***** that someone can buy an attachment for ONE DOLLAR and neither should any of you.
  20. Lavans


    I wonder, would you be OK if MMO companies enabled players to skip grind in a MMORPG and instantly become max level for a fee? Because that's basically what your statement amounts to.


    Nobody is saying SOE shouldn't look for ways to make more money.

    What's being said is that they are going about getting money the wrong way.

    IMO, SOE should make cert prices more fair to non paying customers, or go about getting money in an entirely different manner.

    Assuming SC purchasable upgrades are here to stay, I would like to see one of two things happen to make things more fair to people who do not have a disposable income.

    1) Lower the cert costs of weapons/upgrades
    2) Give the player an option to lease/rent an weapon or upgrade for a fraction of the certs

    You may or may not agree with the two suggestions I just listed. However, people are more inclined to financially support a game that they deem to be fair for all players. If players feel they are being treated unfairly, the odds of said player supporting the game starts to rapidly diminish.

    There is no justification on mandating a player drop up to 1000 certs for an in game item, when it takes an extensive amount of time to get that much. Yes, a player can earn any weapon and any upgrade by certs minus vanity variants, but that doesn't automatically make it fair. If it takes +/- 16 hours to earn a single weapon, or +/- 4 hours to earn a single upgrade, then that is not fair. A casual gamer would likely never have enough commitment to earn that many certs, or get a fully specialized loadout to match their playstyle. It is no secret that casual gamers make up a huge chunk of the free to play market, and it's been proven time and time again that they are more likely to spend money on games that they feel they can commit to. Nobody wants to grind for that much time just to feel the reward of unlocking something that should otherwise be taken for granted.