How are more casual players supposed to compete with experienced ESF pilots?

I disagree with you. Putting certs into frames doesn't make that much of a difference. I often go to other servers, pull a stock ESF, and do just fine. I find that those hours of flying are really what I certed into. But the ground game is the same to me on all servers, cannot access it because the ground mechanics favor veterans over new players.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. The tank and infantry mechanics are not intuitive and require hundreds of hours to be competent in.

I can say with a fair amount of certainty that PS2s flight mechanics are not, and have never been, a selling point. Nor are they a defining characteristic. They're never advertised in any media SOE puts out. They're never regaled by anyone but the small handful of pilots that exist. They're never put in the spotlight in any way, shape or form. The fact that faction specific aircraft has been advertised, but the way they handle has never been advertised and is hardly a "defining characteristic", the defining characteristics of PS2 is it's large maps, large battles, and combined arms gameplay, not the dancing fairy hover duels of ESFs.

That's a good thing, though. A good game has a skill curve and a veteran player should best a new player, skill plays a part. That also isn't what we're discussing here. So I'm not dramatizing anything because that isn't even remotely related to what I'm talking about. The first paragraph is what I'm talking about. It shouldn't be a long, painful cumbersome process just to be able to fly around and kill some dudes. Nobody has to invest hours upon hours and training to grab a HA and go kill some dudes. Nobody has to do that to hop in an MBT and kill some dudes. Why should they just to fly around and kill some dudes? Yet a veteran infantry player can and will kill a newbie. A veteran tanker can and will kill a newbie.

Having veterans kill newbies isn't the problem. Preventing newbies from even getting their foot in the door because the skill floor is too high is the problem.

Actually PS2 is essentially battlefield: online, but that's for another thread. Also Battlefield 2142 is regarded as one of the best FPS games of all time, along with all the earlier battlefield titles. It was even more arcadey than PS2 is. It was also SIGNIFICANTLY better and significantly more fun than PS2 is. Basically, since you never played it, PS2 is very similar to Battlefield 2142 yet inferior in every possible way, so since you have played PS2 that should let you sort of imagine 2142.

Also certs play a far less impactful role in ground combat, as I said. Sure they may open more possibilities, but you can still experience the core game and be GOOD at the core game without spending any certs at all. The stock default guns on classes are some of the best, if not the best weapons in the game. Prior to the nerfs the HEAT was a very useful tank turret that many people, myself included, used even when other options were available. In ground combat the default load-out is more than enough to take on even the most veteran players. Not so much for air gameplay.

Man, I flew back in beta when ESFs drastically shifted from unstoppable god machines to paper planes that shot watermelon seeds. If you think the ESFs of today are in any threat from small arms then... eh... Even today I'll sometimes grab my rocketpods and go on a little run, and I can assure you it's never small arms that do me in. Ever.

I disagree, small arms can do lots of damage to ESFs.

That's utter bollocks and you know it.

Anyone that's played practically ANY FPS in the last 10 years is already competent at this game's ground mechanics.

Well I have to disagree. I think the ground game has a skill floor that is too high which makes it favor veteran players. I can't walk out a spawn room for five minutes without five "ground knights" jumping me and outplaying me. Same thing for tanks. Just my opinion.

I hope that making tank and infantry combat easier to get into is a priority for SOE.

Just because that happens doesn't mean the person getting stomped on doesn't understand the mechanics...it just means those guys are better than you.

And sure yeah, maybe ESFs should have a high skill ceiling...but the skill floor? Man...I just don't have the time to even learn the basics - which with infantry and tank play, as I said, is pretty normal for FPS games.

It's a shame, as I'd love to spend some SC on getting a fully certed up one - and I bet I'm not alone in that.

SOE needs to make them not quite as niche to get into - if only from a purely economic point. More pilots means more potential money spent on aircraft.

And aye, this is just my opinion too. Soz if I'm rambling btw...it's been a long day ^^

Yes I quite agree, just about infantry and tank play. If SOE made infantry and tank play easier to get into, there would be more money rolling in. I would love to cert up a heavy assualt or tank but I just don't think it is worth it given the high skill floor, I am willing to bet there are others like me on this. Infantry play and tank play are so nuanced that unless you learn the special moves and tricks, you don't stand a chance.

Oh ok you're one of /those/ people.

**** you very much then, cheerybye

People who don't fly (or intend to) don't matter squat as far as debating what the flight mechanics should be.
If all I ever did was to fly around all day, and nothing else, my opinion on how ground vehicles such as tanks work is none of my business. If I later change my mind and do diversify my play to include them, then maybe my opinions would start to matter, assuming they're not total bollocks.

I also think you're having a bit of a hard time differentiating between the flight mechanic and weapon capabilities. Just a thought...

Is it really? Think about it, how many of the PS2 players have experience from other FPS games? The vast majority probably do, be it Battlefield, CS, CoD or whatever. And as far as battlefield goes, it has ground vehicles which gives people a leg up on using vehicles with a keyboard as the control input method (not as intuitive as you might think).
So if you were to take a player with zero experience in FPS games, driving games or anything of the sort (let's say all they've ever played is fighting games with game pads, and maybe some wii bowling), and then plop them down into Planetside2, do you honestly expect them to do well? Unlike people like myself and probably you they don't have untold hours, or days, weeks and whatnot of game time in more or less similar games, and as a result they'll get roflstomped.

While it is a bit of a concern (though not a big one, IMO) there's not as much out there that could prepare you for the way the airgame works in PS2, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
What's important about my previous example is more that people who do have experience have a bad tendency to forget it in these situations.
To give an actual example of what I mean, with a different genre:
I have a mate who tried Dota2 last year. He has never played an MMORPG, RPG or RTS in his life. Meaning he was as green as they come to that type of game in terms of how you control your unit(s). Of course he was bad, awful even. Meanwhile the rest of our team have lots of experience from the relevant types of games, so for us the controls were intuitive.
But it does highlight the problem of what some might say is intuitive won't be so for others.
The only thing that differentiates the PS2 air game from the ground play is that more people -will- have prior experience with gameplay mechanics that are close to the ground mechanics compared to the air.

But that doesn't mean the air gameplay is hard/bad, just... not common.
If anything it's more fair, as "everyone" started as green players. So instead of up towards 15-20 (or more) years of a built up advantage (for some), it's only 2.

And that's it, really.

If you disagree please state your case, we are supposed to have a meaningful discussion after all.

Took you this long to figure out? Hell I just got a mod warning me for calling it as it is. Don't take the bait after someone else already took a bite.

He nicely demonstrated the dismissive and elitist attitude of ESF players though, eh?

What a fine specimen xD

As I said, if it directly effects them they have a right to voice their opinions on it. If ESFs being more like planes instead of helicopters makes it more fun for those on the ground, they have a right to voice that. Infantry have a right to voice their opinions on tanks and air because tanks and air directly effect them. Ground vehicles have a right to voice their opinion on infantry and air because, again, they're directly effected. Air gets to voice their opinion about... AA cuz AA is the only thing that directly effects them from the ground.

Besides, even if we rig the poll, so to speak, in favor of current pilots I wouldn't be surprised if a LOT of people were like me and very much want to fly but don't enjoy PS2s hover duel system.

You get wonderful sky knights like him and silken but not all pilots are like that. Some genuinely enjoy flying and just don't want to lose it and I understand that. I'd be upset if people tried changing something I liked too. But then again, I've already had the mechanics of things I loved changed so eh... my sympathy doesn't extend very far.

I really don't understand this riff raff, pilots have a right to talk about in game mechanics just as we al do.

Ad Hominem fallacy. Calling your opponents elitists in order to win popular support.

That's just it, how the aircraft are controlled and such doesn't directly effect them. It does indirectly through their weapons, but the flight mechanics themselves? Not even close, pal.

What they do have a right for is to voice their concerns and opinions about the effectiveness of their weapons, both on the ESF and their own while trying to fight back. Sure.
But the -flight mechanics-?
No.

As for the theoretical poll, I think you'd be surprised.

Well some of them really are elitist. Sometimes a horse is just a horse.

That's stereotyping, and that is terrible.
Define elitist.

Ok so let's go with that, the flight mechanics aren't the issue for ground troops it's the weapons. How would you change it? Because from what I've seen personally and heard from others the main problem is an ESF comes in, hovers around as it unloads all over the guys on the ground and the second it starts taking fire it boosts away at top speed behind cover before you can kill it. It's the combination of the hover abilities of a helicopter with the mobility of a jet. Short of making it incapable of attacking ground I don't think any changes to weapons will fix that.

Stereotyping is saying all pilots are elitist. Saying some pilots are elitist is in no way stereotyping. Just as infantry have their idiots, tankers have theirs, pilots have theirs as well.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/elitist