Higby: Return of the Tankside

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by BlueSkies, Jan 16, 2015.

  1. ColonelChingles

    I don't think his position is that the defense is over when you are locked into the spawnroom... but the point is that you have to try a drastically different tactic when that does happen. Doing what you've always been doing up until the point of losing tactical control of a base won't help you really (unless you get a massive numbers boost).

    The tactics you suggest, like MAX crashes, are of course ways to break out of the spawnroom. Yet at the same time there are also disadvantages to this tactic as well.

    Consider your typical Tech Plant fight. You're the attacking team and the point has been cleared, the enemy confined to their quarters. You're sitting somewhere around the point and suddenly notice that the enemy has gotten a bit more quiet. Thanks to a Motion Detector near their spawnroom, you see on the minimap that yes, they're beginning to amass MAXes there. So you give out orders to switch to HA, and to prepare an ambush in the garage bay (because almost all MAX crashes pop out of there).

    By the time the enemy MAX crash happens, they walk into a wall of Bulldogs/rockets/AT mines/C4. Why did this happen? Because the enemy was in a position where their behavior and path was completely predictable, which happens when they have a set start and end point.

    Now consider an atypical experience, where the same number of MAXes and support infantry rain from the sky via a Galaxy counterattack. The differences are immediately apparent. First, the attacking (now defending) force has much more limited intelligence. They probably noticed that numbers in their hex dropped, but they can't be sure if the enemy just got bored and left or if they are counterattacking. Second, the attacking force doesn't have just one approach to defend... the airborne MAX crash can be dispersed or come from any direction (the balcony, the gun deck, etc). This means that the attacker either has to spread out their assets or make a gamble and only defend the point/shields (neither of which is good tactically). Third, the attacking force is now much more vulnerable to vehicle attacks because they can't camp the vehicle spawns anymore.

    Counterattacking instead of pushing from the spawnroom has many advantages to it, even if the same basic tactic (like MAX crashing) is used. I think when he says "the defense is over", what he means is that the defenders should be switching to a counterattacking mode, making use of flanking and surprise. These are elements of the attacker (or counterattacker), not the defender.
  2. MarvinGardens

    Maybe rather than making C4 not be able to instagib tanks, infantry just needs more appealing equipment options rather than just C4 or health pack. That way you need to be more specialized to combat armor. Also, maybe make it so you can only throw C4 with two feet on the ground? That way LA will still have the advantage of being able to sneak up to a tank easier than other classes, but he wouldn't be able to just fly over them like a C4 fairy dropping C4 presents to all the bad children of Auraxis.

    I do believe a single infantry, properly equipped, should be able to instagib a tank(or inflict catastrophic, unrepairable in the field, damage to it at least) if he can get within melee distance to it though. That's how it works in real life, that's how it should be balanced in a game. Tanks are great at range, and they can smash through defenses like a juggernaut(note to Planetside, make more defensive structures so tanks can smash through them), but they are siege engines first and foremost, not infantry hunter killers. While formidable, they still need to rely on infantry to defend them from other infantry. Maybe C4 is way too versatile a weapon to be the king of tank killing, but they should have some weapon that can do the job if you can get close enough. Maybe a magnetic shaped charge that you need to equip and melee(not throw) onto armor to use? It can be on a reasonably short timer(maybe 10 seconds?) and an engineer can remove it with his repair tool if he's fast enough. If the tank is alone he would need to choose to jump out and try to remove the explosive with an enemy infantry close enough to shoot him in the face while he is trying to remove the explosive, or kill the person who placed it first which will leave less time to remove the explosive. Of course, all of that would be easily countered if there was a friendly, attentive engineer nearby to remove the explosive for you, hence teamwork. The explosive should be noticeable when looking for it, but not glaringly obvious like a spawn beacon, motion detector, or regeneration field. Of course, if no one notices that the charge is placed on the tank, then the tank should be doomed just the same.

    Or maybe the anti tank weapon could do lethal damage to the tank over time. Like a fast DOT, except again, you can remove it with the engineer tool. That way the tank driver knows that he has something on him that will eventually kill him, but again, makes it counterable if you have friendly engineers around or if you can quickly react by jumping out of your tank and removing it. This would be a interesting because it is counterable with fast reflexes or attentive allies, and the weapon would be more effective on wounded targets or targets already under unfriendly fire. It would also be significantly less effective to the lone tank at full health as long as he is being halfway attentive. No instagib, reasonably counterable by themselves and easily counterable by a team, but still lethal in the right circumstances.
  3. MarvinGardens

    If you want to use subjective arguments not supported by the game system then I can as well. When a country invades another country, who is the attacker or defender? The invader is the attacker of course, and the people who own the country is the defender. Even if the defender is pushed back to their military bases and bunkers, they are still the defender. It is only when the defenders surrender(or die) and all resistance stamped out does the country "flip" and the attacker can now be the defender to anyone that invades their brand spanking new country. So as long as defenders can spawn within the perimeter of the base, the invaders are always the attackers, and the owners of the base are always the defenders. Even if the SCU is destroyed, the battle isn't done until the SCU can no longer be repaired(or if it is repaired, it is by the bases new overlords).

    Damn that base design. Though you are right that the base design really doesn't favor the defenders. Except in Biolabs I suppose. Seriously though, I don't even know why we are arguing about the semantics of attacking and defending anyway. Isn't the thread about armor buffs? Man, sometimes I look back on the time it took me to write a post and realize I just wasted my time on something totally off topic... Wish I realized this like two posts or so ago.
  4. BlueSkies

    Heh, the one base where people HAVE to get out of their vehicles
    • Up x 2
  5. WTSherman

    An entire war isn't a single continuous attack or defense. The situation on the ground is constantly changing, and both sides switch between offensive and defensive stances regularly.

    For example: invasion of Normandy, Allies attacked, Germans defended. The Allies then went on a long string of attacks pushing into Europe. At the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans were attacking, the Allies were defending. The Allies managed to hold the line, then went back to attacking.

    The latter battle was a good deal more dynamic though, since it wasn't an amphibious assault against fixed fortifications (where the attackers can't very well fall back to the sea, and the defenders can't very well assault the sea). So there were lots of little attacks and little defenses going on both sides throughout the battle.

    Generally, the attacker is the one that is moving out from their previous position in an attempt to gain effective control of a position that is currently in the hands of an enemy. The defender is the one that is already in effective control of an area under assault, attempting to halt or slow down an advance.

    Their positions can rapidly reverse if the defender is successful, and decides to capitalize on their successful defense by making a push. They also reverse when the attacker halts their advance to consolidate their gains: they are now attempting to retain their control of an area, thus becoming defenders, while the side they just kicked out either must fall back to their next position, or become the attackers to regain control.

    If you are no longer able to conduct maneuvers within a base, that base is lost. All the timer does is put the other team on a defensive stance for a few minutes, so you have time to regroup and organize a counteroffensive.
    • Up x 5
  6. MarvinGardens

    It seems our definitions mostly differ between the macro scale and the micro scale. For me, even though I'm attacking an invader, I still think it is defending, until the game tells me it is no longer my territory. Like in a boxing match, the defending champ is still the defending champ until he loses, no matter who is punching at the time. For you, the defender is whoever is holding a position, and the attacker is whoever is trying to take that position. Got it. We were just on parallel logic tracks.

    As for what I think is the original topic, both attacking from an adjacent base and fighting out from the spawn room are both valid tactics(Of course, doing both is always the best course of action whenever possible). It's just that the armor buffs will make it harder for the people fighting from the spawn room to break the encircling forces, since entrenched armor will be even more entrenched. The problem with attacking from another base is that requires coordination, coordination that randoms don't have. Like it is now one man could make a difference. With the armor buffs, that one man will just die uselessly now that he can't take out a target of interest by himself anymore, no matter what he does, how he is specced, and no matter how sneaky he is. Most likely he just won't try anymore, which will just add one more man fighting from the safety of the spawn room because there is nothing he can accomplish by himself anymore. It changes a major threat to armor into a minor annoyance, which is quite the significant change. Good or bad, I can't say until I see it in action, but I am not optimistic.

    Is this the direction we want to take Planetside 2? Dunno, maybe it will encourage more team play, maybe it won't. Hopefully it's just the first step in the right direction, but time will tell. I just hope it is part of a long game changing adjustments that will make the overall game much more enjoyable for everyone, and not just a short balance change that will be overturned when it seems to be too major a change at the beginning. Whatever they decide, I hope they stay the course no matter how unpopular each individual change is. Unless their final vision sucks and kills Planetside like they killed Star Wars Galaxies anyway. I hope not.
  7. Jachim

    Wait, what? If you're stuck in your spawn room, YOU LOST THE BASE, it just doesn't cap fast enough to prove it. There is no defending at that point. Cut this excuse out.
    • Up x 1
  8. BlueSkies

    So you managed to not answer the question... and call something in what I said an excuse...

    dafuq? :confused:
  9. Jachim

    I strongly disagree, in the vast majority of bases tanks are not able to contest the point directly. In fact, air have a better time doing it. Sure, armor might encircle your base, but if you own the point, there is literally nothing they can do, or should be able to do. This is called a seige, and to break those, you need to do it from elsewhere, not just as an infantry zerg. :)

    If there are bases that are too open to tanks, we should fix that. Not nerf tanks instead.
  10. Jachim

    I answered it indirectly by stating that the base is lost. The point of the base is to defend it before you get jammed into your spawn room.
  11. MarvinGardens

    That's quitter talk son. No problem is insurmountable if you get enough bodies and explosives to throw at them. Each tank you take out of the battle decreases the strength of the siege, each sunderer destroyed might force the enemy to deploy from a more disadvantaged rally point. Just because you can't get out of the spawn right at this moment, you should just pack up and leave? Hell no. You keep chipping away at the enemy and if you see a weak link in the siege you charge through it, take back that point and push those sons of ******* out of your base. I've been on both sides of the battle where reinforcements kept flooding in until we either pushed our way out of the siege, or got pushed out by the enemies wave of reinforcements when I was on the attacking side. both outcomes are possible. It's quitters that don't try that make this more of a rare occurrence than it should be. Think about it, the defenders have an infinite, indestructible spawn(for a majority of bases), with numerous exit points(also for most bases). From those spawns they can blast the crap out of anything within line of sight, be it infantry, armor, or air. Once the immediate area is cleared, you push into the nearest cover, then the next cover, until you've defended the point, destroyed the enemy armor, and won the day. You know who doesn't help? Quitters who leave the battle to join up with a friendly zerg on another continent, to a fight that is easier.
  12. Jachim

    Hey I'm with you on this, my issue is when it's used as an excuse to say 'wah nerf tanks they're surrounding our base wah'. The vast majority of bases you're fighting infantry and the tanks are stuck outside huge walls circlejerking anyway.

    Buff bases so they can't be farmed by tanks, don't nerf tanks themselves.
  13. MarvinGardens

    Thinking that a siege cannot be broken from the inside is false, I've seen it happen many times. Usually due to an influx of reinforcements deploying straight to the base. Some bases are easier to do this that others of course. Is it the most efficient way? Maybe not, but you can't expect random PUGs to have the organization to reorganize at an adjacent base and form a counter attack. Even if they try to do that, without organization, they'll all just be picked off one by one as they try to head back to the besieged base.
  14. MarvinGardens

    Gotcha. Though, they're buffing tanks instead of nerfing this time though right? Well, it'll be interesting either way, my play style will definitely be impacted, but I enjoy the challenge. I like killing armor. :)
  15. BlueSkies

    The point of a base is to defend it... :oops:

    The point (or purpose) of a base is supposed to be to provide the defenders with significant tactical advantage over the attackers. If it doesn't do that, it serves no purpose. This of course could be fixed by moving the spawns underground and putting in tunnels to base objectives.

    But no.. instead we'll buff the hell out of tanks so they can spawn camp with even greater impunity.
  16. Pikachu

    Then people will aim their guns at tye tunnel opening instead of the spawn room opening.
  17. BlueSkies

    Basically think of it varying between sub. nanite analysis and waterson's redemption (so... completely underground vs setup so at the very least ground vehicles aren't spamming the spawns)
  18. EliteEskimo

    Most people agree that HEAT is garbage now and their is no reason to pull AP, so by rightly nerfed you mean a sacrifice for the upcoming tank buffs then sure it was "rightfully nerfs", I wouldn't want to be a new player trying to get into the tank game right now. You're a hopelessly biased infantryside player if you think AP shells shouldn't OHK infantry, because unless you're talking about removing the .5 meter splash radius they have that is quite the statement to make. Please clarify which one you meant.

    GOKU has interrupted TR/NC battles many times since their creation, the most recent I can remember being when you deployed to that abandoned building between Howling pass and Abandoned NS offices and proceeded to instagib everything. You don't make special exceptions for HE/HEAT "spammers" or else you must give me mercy as I've escaped this wrath many times despite seeing tanks blown up all around me.

    You're biased because you ignore facts that I give you, and try to create a strawman about me. DA seems to be able to track the weapons I've used as an engineer, medic, and HA. Admittedly I've only been truly playing infantry for about a month now, not because I didn't want to, but because playing with 15 fps made it a crappy experience and playing between 40-70 makes things much more tolerable.

    So I guess since the nanite cost and your QQ about situational awareness that means that MAX units need to be much more durable since the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE FOR MAX UNITS YET TANK SPERGS THINK THEY'RE SPECIAL.

    This is you trying to be nice? Also I'm assuming sperg is a dirgatory term and amounting my arguments to QQ is hardly professional. Do you believe your own lies are you not even aware of what you post before you post it. I'm within 100 meters of infantry constantly, blowing up Sunderers, tanks, and the infantry around them from all outfits including GOKU. Do you honestly think I get the KD I have in a tank if I had a lack of situational awareness or thought it wasn't important or required?Tanks require a massive amount of situational awareness because unlike a Sunderer and a Galaxy they actuallly have a massive weakpoint, can be instagibed from full health by single infantryregardless of loadout, and are also a 2/2 teamplay vehicle.
  19. FBVanu

    The point of the base is to hold the base, until it is time to realize that you can no longer hold it. It's called "retreat". The basic idea comes from real life, where, when you retreat, you live to fight another day.
    In RedeploySide there is no point in 'living to fight another day', as you can't die.. only your avatar dies.., so you need to think of it in terms of the game.

    But, at a certain point of enemy saturation within and around your base, there is no longer a point to try and hold the base, as any such attempts would be futile...you can't win anymore (absent from an enormous MAX crash and dedicated Squads all converging at the same time to "push out"... )
    Absent of that crash.. you need to apply the game mechanic (dare I say 'logic'), where you are not going to be able to win the base back, ergo: you earn zero certs
    you can not kill any enemy, the moment you stick your head out of the spawn room, you die, ergo: zero certs
    You can not achieve anything anymore, other than provide me with certs, thank you very much.

    At that point, you should redeploy to another base, where you have the ability to gather forces, spawn vehicles, find support, start a counter attack, ergo: YOU can earn certs by attacking the faction that just took the previous base.
    Should be rather simple: You know the strength of the enemy, you know exactly where they are, you know which route they take to the next objective, you know what kinds of vehicles they have... You can turn all of that into your advantage..

    The result of staying in a spawn room: No certs, no ranking up, no new weapons, no progress, no point, no reason to stay stuck in a spawn room, no fun, rage quit, misunderstanding the game.

    Redeploy to your nearest base: The opportunity to take advantage of information above, earn certs, rank up, get new weapons, have fun killing the enemy, love the game, tell your friends how great it can be when you can stop a foot zerg or a vehicle blob rolling to the next base, where you were all prepared with mines, av turrets, air support arrived in time, snipers had set up perfect spots, your armor was shelling the oncoming horde from far away, your sunderers had occupied great spots.. the enemy got slaughtered.. you had a big giant grin on your face.. I LOVE THIS GAME..

    Remember: Veterans of this game do not get farmed.
  20. BlueSkies

    A) Holding the base is what you DO with the base. The question though is what is the point of a base. The point of a base is supposed to be providing defenders with a tactical advantage (otherwise, why bother). You can see with the adjustments to bases/outposts on Indar, and with the direction of base design on the newer continents, that the designers realized that the original design which either favored no one, or in fact favored the attacker with their ability to completely lock it down with splash damage from vehicles, was stupid. Its not really relevant to this thread anyway...

    B) Being a veteran has nothing to do with whether or not you get farmed. Plenty of bads that have been playing since beta.