HESH spam

Couldn’t have said it better myself mate.

Then your enemy is playing well and you are not.

HESH *can* be dealt with. Stop pretending that it can't. Problem is someone gets killed by it and just assumes someone else is going to deal with the problem.

What? So explain then how me when playing solo because friends are all offline am going to go to a HESH spammer on top of a mountain through a 24-48 armour Zerg and kill him without getting killed myself. Just so he can go respawn and bring along a new tank and start all over again. I think your enemy isn’t playing well if you can kill them in a large fight, when they have a massive amount of support. Go on give me some ways a solo can get to a good player mind you , on top of a hill and kill them without being realised and killed. I’m waiting.

Pure infantry fights, you mean. You and your allies should never just let let enemy vehicles gallavant all around you constantly. Trying to act like a battle "over (out) there" has no bearing to you fighting "over (in) here" is foolish. Vehicle spam happens because one side is not engaging an enemy advance or trying to gain a foothold against avenues of enemy advance using realistic tactics.

If it's a Flash, Wraith Module helps. You may not get right up to the front-most problem immediately due to player density, but picking their numbers off starting from the rear one and working up at a time helps.

And, if you die, you go do it all over again too.

You act like dying is the end of the world. The person who thinks respawning is the worst thing that can happen to them in this game isn't looking ahead and seeing that newly-spawned replacement HESH at the top of the hill raining death down on them and he definitely doesn't realize they can also bring a newly-respawned Flash up behind the tank and do it all over again and that it's fun to do that because it's fighting the enemy. That person generally doesn't see the game outside of himself. There's no guideline to what isn't fun in the game except how you limit yourself under the pretense of "fighting the enemy."

You owe it to yourself, if not others, to go out there and try things you don't think possible and die a few times doing it. You don't deserve to die any number of times to HESH, but it will happen if you let it kill you by doing nothing.

No, I don't. A great many fun times between harasser-vs-harasser have been ruined by a sudden splurge of MBTs all tripping over each other to kill one of us. They sometimes even hit their allies!

Again, no. Vehicle spam happens because vehicles dominate infantry without any additional skill, effort, or cost. As an infantryman, the best AV weapon I have is a Decimator. Assuming no one else prevents the kill and the target doesn't ever retreat my TTK would be damn near an entire minute of loading, aiming, and firing. The enemy would have an instant kill on me.

It would only be foolish for me to even try against anything higher than 1-1 odds, let alone against an entire vehicle zerg with weapons which won't kill while I'd be killed well inside cover.

As with so with Infantry versus Infantry, so too with Harasser versus Harasser. You are focused on the small fight and dying because a greater battle appears. That happens. What you do to deal or avoid the problem is what is important, not dwelling on the fact that you don't exist in a bubble of you and a chosen opponent.

As an infantryman, you can also get into a tank yourself. You don't even have to be inside the vehicle at all times or covet it as much as the person you're fighting against does his. Knowing that you're limited as infantry being just plain infantry is where you should start to realize that you need to explore other options and combinations of tactics. That next step is figuring out how to augment your style so that the limitation evaporates.

If your next thought after convincing yourself "as just infantry I'm limited" is "so I'll stay as just infantry" or "I won't do anything different," then you either gave up before even trying, or you like the challenge. At least come to terms with that weakness you've already accepted.

Of course it *can* be dealt with. Just like a pistol can deal with a HA. But is it fair and balanced to give the VS only pistols and have them fight the TR&NC with it? No ofcourse not! There's a bunch of AV weapons available to infantry, and only C4 and AT mines have any effect. C4 is cry#1 for tankers despite that it's a CQC weapon with numerous easy and low-skill counters. AT mines score just about as many vehicles but requires 1/10th the skill of C4 to use, but because it's the vehicle players themselves using it the most they don't complain. Other weapons can be avoided by vehicles by simply staying out of range, or going out of range/into cover whenever threatened.

What we need is more things that can actually deal with tanks. Keep the current costless AV as powerful as it is, then it's a true last resort and the lack of power is expected. Add a bunch of lethal and non-lethal nanite-based weapons. Shields, distortion/stealth fields, lethal/non-lethal debuffs against enemy vehicles etc. That way the field between infantry and tanks gets balanced out, and with proper range on these weapons you can eliminate the tanks that can safely farm out of effective infantry range without making infantry instantly OP against long-range targets.

One has over 3 times as much average KDR than the other. So on average one gets 3 times as many kills as the other before dying, emphasis on dying. Which means that lightnings with hesh die a lot more than kobalts on ants and harassers. If there is spam, it is being countered far before it can get anywhere.

Now you're probably thinking "Ha! That's not all the heshes! There's versions on the MBTs too!" Well yea, there are and guess what? They're actually doing worse than lightning hesh imagine that.

If your argument is that more people pull hesh so it lowers the KDR, then that simply means they are getting countered far harder and more often than the people pulling kobalts, it's a self fixing problem, because even if they do damage vehicles, they are far outpaced by everything else.

Actually no, it has far less vehicle kills than it's counterparts within faction in some cases the viper actually pulls ahead being a better vehicle killer which completely obfuscates your claim.

Actually thanks for making me look at that too.

If that were true then vipers wouldn't have nearly as many infantry kills per hour as their counterparts. As vipers are available to everyone including the lowest of the low BRs yet despite this they can pull behind by 4 kills on average to their hesh counterparts.

Something tells me it's not the gun, its people using them that's got yall riled up.

Garbage bases has been the basis of every bad fight. The reason no one steps out of the spawn, because soon as you do ya die.

But here's the thing, even if they covered every inch of a base so that the most interior of a fight was the most important, at what point would you want to use hesh? I'd love it if they fixed REAL offender bases like aurora, but locking them out of bases entirely simply ***** on people who bought the hesh.

Also this isn't 100% just some key bases, it's not like people fight at the same base for hours and days on end for these statistics. It's multiple fights over a long term, otherwise we'd have a lot higher hesh stats.

You'd be surprised.

Getting plinked by an archer is annoying enough, getting plinked by something that I can't repair off just pisses people off, how bout a hesh round that made a large fire patch that stunted you walking into the base? How bout a round that lights you on fire and will die if you don't seek a medic in time?

People have been saying it for a long time to pull a tank from another base to reap the ones that lower their own DPS, the change only made it so they weren't completely helpless, this doesn't invalidate the strategy of ****em up with your own tank.

Actually:
1. Infantry are completely helpless against vehicles most of the time. The people that develop said vehicles don't want them simply being destroyed by regular infantry, that's where the original tank came from, to specifically counter trenches.
2. Require is getting blurrier and blurrier. With the terrain and how infantry have very much lethal rocket launchers, the only place I could imagine them being truely helpless is at 400 meters out, in an open field with no cover. Segregation at that point would be nill, but it's not like we don't have buildings or anything.
3. Vehicle players have always vouched for a place in the game that wasn't trying to destroy just the one ******* sunderer and being mobbed by infantry in the process. 5 heavies can easily alpha down one tank, if there are infantry spawning from it, it is a very clear threat to the tank.
4. It's kinda ******** that infantry with flak don't die to one tankshell, the worst part is you can never tell if someone is or isn't going to die from it, you kinda just have to hope this one shell does it. That combined with slow muzzle velocities and drop along with next to normal projectile hitbox and you create an infuration flurry. It's like being a sniper and only 1/4 headshots kill the guy.

Valk dropping C4 lights from skyceiling would like to claim otherwise.

Also the nerf on the delay was caused BY infantry, if you want to blame overnerfing blame infantryside because vehicles for the most part were still the same.

But you know what I love? Having to get out of my tank to do something better than my tank could ever do: Shoot infantry.

You're not supposed to be able to solo a ******* tank. Are you ******* joking? He (the tank in your example) is playing with his team, he's aware of his surroundings, he's experienced, he's setup and you're telling me that you NEED a way to 100% him while he's in his teamblob, while he's being protected by other players, all of which he cannot react to it.

I don't tell many players this but holy **** do you know how stupid that ******* sounds mate?

You know whatcha do in a TEAM game when you need to fight an enemy TEAM? Maybe get a TEAM of your own so your TEAM can counter their TEAM.

The reason zerging is a problem is because there's only so much you can do against it, but if we give individuals the power you're asking for, then we might as well give everyone a free orbital without the limits.

You're asking for a specialized counter to be specialized against. Why should I run hesh if it doesn't kill infantry. Why do you need infantry to kill their counter when they are the most spammed unit? It's like saying sunderers should counter MBTs because that's what counters sunderers.

I don't know about you, but it's been a long *** time since I've been killed by hesh. But if I were you, I'd take up tanking to counter them.

Yeah, about the wraith flash. I’ve tried it but against an organised armour column it just doesn’t cut it.
So no that’s not a valid counter to HESH spammers

You are one funny guy. I’m not asking for the power to destroy every tank I look at am I. All I’m saying is HESH spammer sitting on top of mountains in bases on esamir is wrong and not fair for people who primarily play pay infantry.

From all your replies I can tell you are probably a tank main who has a KD of 10 as he redeploys when his tank is destroyed. Go play at watersons redemption and you will see what I mean, they end all good fights mainly becuase base design is horrific. IMO Demigans suggestion to counter this is perfect.

What in the world are you looking for? A silver bullet; some magic dust you can scatter over the tank and it vanishes every time? A way to destroy an entire platoon (or at least a whole bunch of players in a cohesive mass) yourself?

Again, no. In fact, the majority of the time the infantry aspect is greater than the vehicle aspect. An established fight is interrupted and ruined by a third-party interloper only interested in easy kills. And no, not just 1v1s. Harassers are much less common to be left alone but the same holds true.

In doing so, would I still be an infantryman? But no, that's not a solution.

Firstly what's one tank going to do against a zerg?

Secondly the more infantry that leave the fight for capture points the weaker their fighting force becomes.

Thirdly, I choose to play infantry. This is what I find the most fun part of PS2 to be, this is where nearly all of my investments have gone, what all my work has been done for, and where almost all my time is spent. I know all the layouts of all the bases, I know where to go and how to get there, I know where I can hide, what I can climb, I know all my weapons very well, and this is where all my skills, knowledge and experience applies.

Compared to my vehicles, well, the days of battle sunndies are long over and playing NC I don't really have any AV harasser options capable of competing with with enemy tanks. That's my two main vehicles gone, at best I've got a lightly upgraded Vanguard and Lightning with AP cannons and not much else. I don't use these cannons often and don't know the ballistics, I don't know the battleground in the same way as I do with infantry, and I don't know any maneuvers for these two vehicles.

I don't try to force other players to play in ways they don't like, why should I be forced to play in some way I don't like?

Fourthly, as infantry my limitations are hard set and cannot simply be "evaporated away." I can't play any differently to survive a direct hit or somehow deal a significantly greater damage output. This isn't like killing a heavy as an engineer here. Flak would only disadvantage me against the enemy I actually must fight to win and might not even make a difference.

An argument I've used in the past is that my time is simply more valuable fighting infantry than vehicles.

Alas, the followup quote containing a screenshot demonstrating this very thing no long contains the image as it has expired and I never kept the image itself. This was I believe three kills in five seconds.

Here's a segment of my kill-feed from yesterday though. Four kills in seven seconds:


The Decimator takes 5.7 seconds to reload. Let's assume it would take me about 1.3 seconds to aim and fire at a fairly distant target with it; Sounds about right to me. Would it not be fair to say that in killing four enemy infantry in the time it would take for me to even fire a single or follow-up shot at an enemy vehicle it would be much more efficient to primarily engage infantry instead?

As just infantry I am limited, but it is even with these limitations that I am at my best!

Turned into a bit of a wall-o'-text, sorry about that.

*Sigh
No.
I’m saying that infantry can no longer enjoy a bloody fight anymore because they are all ruined by HESH spammers who aren’t ready to admit that they ruin every fight for infantry mans just so they can carry on farming!

Yes, this is due to having more players using the easier weapon. They kill with it because it's easy to kill with it and die because they're inexperienced with the platform.

If you take a look at the directive sidearms for example, you'll likely find they perform considerably than the defaults despite the fact that they are considerably worse. This is because the fewer player who have and use them are experienced veterans and can do well with almost anything.

Same story here. On top of it harassers often have a dedicated driver and don't get tunnel visioned nearly as much as a point-and-click HE cannon on an adventure.

Again, see other examples of this trend. AE, gold, whatever. Always better than the identical base weapons simply because of their infrequency.

Vipers are also notably crap. Players would have a much harder time killing literally anything than if they just had a HEAT cannon.

Depends.

If it's an attacking zerg, you can accomplish quite a lot, even going as far as stopping them spawning all together.

If it's a defence zerg you aren't doing anything with any vehicle or even infantry. Redeploy is in full effect and nothing you do will stop that. The defenders will continue to spawn and nothing will happen. They'll probably hold the point until they get bored of farming and then kill the sunderer. The only counter is Over-pop.

Dear god why did you hit reply all, who does that? The thing was long enough as is.

1. Trying to change the place changes literally nothing about your post, you want that tank in the middle of his allies permanently dead period I just said get your team to fight their team. You shouldn’t be able to simply get up there and nuke him.

2. Har har, trying to mudsling eh? Well sorry bud but I spend less than 3% of my total playtime in tanks. They aren’t viable, it took 5 days with of time in them to realize that infantry maining was the way to go. Too little playtime to call me a tank main, enough time to know how well the perform and too much total playtime as infantry to know what it’s like on both sides of the engagement. Maybe you wanna take a swing at my outfit? Maybe my sickly grandmother too.

Ah so what you’re telling me is that even though kobalts do far better in AI that the ease of use is what bothers you, not the actual performance of the weapon. You’re saying that because so many people use it it’s obviously going to be skewed. Ok.
So what about literally all kobalts having better kph than hesh including the ones on sunderers.

At some ******* point you cannot tell me with straight lace that kobalts on sunderers are not also skewed by you logic as well and yet performs better than hesh despite it’s common use as a far less expensive weapon that multiple people get a turn on.

Purely to supplement discussion, I'd like to point out a possible hidden variable: There are those occasions where a Kobalt Harasser/ANT gets inside a base and just goes to town. This may or may not contribute to its higher KPH compared to HESH.

For the amount of times that would have to happen would be unrealistic, but also lightnings can also get into bases, except they are limited per shot, it’s one of the many weaknesses to them. But this would also have to include kobalts on literally all vehicles to overturn my argument.

The point I’m trying to make here is:
Hesh spam isn’t spam, no one complains about kobalts despite doing better, it’s simply a weapon that feels bad to die to despite how much fewer people it kills. It’s just flashy.

No. I'm telling you HE cannons do much better than Kobalts, and thus see much more usage on the battlefield. The stats are artificially altered to due the inflation of the number of users. The more players use something, the worse the average stats are, generally speaking.

The average KPH of the sunndies Kobalts is higher, yes. However, note the number of users is roughly half the number of HE cannons.

The reason why the A. KPH for the less popular Kobalt is higher than the nearly twice as common HE Lightning cannons is simply because virtually 100% of the time spent in a Lightning counts towards the main cannon even if AFK, while the sunndy's Kobalts are weapons of opportunity. The only time players will spend sitting in them is while riding in a sunndy going between bases or when there are enemy infantry around, and will only be recorded if they kill at least 50 enemies(?) at any time. Players are not likely to be killing anything during a short ride and will not be killing anything if there aren't enemy infantry near the sunnderer. If they are killing enemies, they are spending almost all the time they're using the Kobalt to do it, while a tank cannon is ticking the clock as the player sits around staring at an empty spawnroom and as they're driving to and from bases as well as when they're firing at enemies.

Suffice to say, more people are using the better main weapon for longer periods of time and this is artificially lowering the stats of the weapon.

For another example, compare the NS-15M1 & NS-15M2 to the other five NS-15M variants. Despite all seven guns being identical the two with the highest usage are also the worse performing ones.

Refute my logic if you do not interpret the information as I have.

Source: http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/items/weapons

I'll just add this, people, who think about what kind of enemy they're facing, don't put Kobalts on their vehicles unless they're certain it will be worth the risk of getting ****ed by other vehicles. The Kobalt has the distinct disadvantage of being entirely useless against armor while the HESH still works against anything.

I myself only pull a Kobalt Sundy when I know it will be tucked away in a spot where only enemy infantry will go. Or if we have an armor supremacy which renders enemy vehicles impotent.

It's anecdotal, but I think this line of thinking is solid.