[Suggestion] Heavy Fix

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by MrWolf3, Jun 24, 2014.

  1. ohknoh

    Well I wasn't really talking about rl primaries. I was talking about jumping a HA who's trying to take out a tank, only to have him turn and one shot you with his rocket.

    There are plenty of weapons that have a long reload time, but as long as they can kill in one shot, that usually doesn't matter.

    As for the RL primaries, they don't usually get into CQC on purpose, most of them sit back and snipe choke points from 50+meters with the RL. If an area's crowded they can simply peek out of cover and fire, and they're almost guaranteed a hit. Rockets are pretty large compared to a bullet, so as long as the shot's close, it's going to do damage.
  2. lawn gnome

    if he is trying to take out a tank then the driver should be able to notice the blip that shows up on the radar, turn the turret, and turn the heavy into a fine red mist.

    if i am actively hunting tanks i don't ever fire on enemy troops with any weapon if there is even a remote chance that i can kill the tank before the infantry kill me. tanks > infantry.

    as for sniping, i have little respect for snipers of any flavor. the vast majority of them are simply farming and doing nothing of any real substance for the team. there are only a few small cases where snipers are actually useful and the few times i have been in those situations the horde of "snipers" around me did absolutely nothing, even if i specifically requested sniper support. rocket snipers are just as much of a waste of space.

    long reload times on single shot weapons mean death in large scale combat like planetside 2. i don't know maybe my opinions are colored by playing exclusively on Connery.
  3. Shaggath

    Ha are so op but we don't know why we only see smg ghost and light.
    We can call that the player fairplay i guess ...

    And ha go slow when they use her shield and also go slow when they use her lmg.
  4. FillyFluttershy

    Can't help but notice that your stats indicate you play HA 75% of the time w/ over 293 hours as HA. Would kind of be a conflict of interest for you to support the shield nerf.

    Getting to the point, while yes, under ideal circumstances, the HA shield can be busted relatively quickly, let's not forget that these are, again, ideal. I think it goes without saying that unless you are an aimbotting loser a hardcore professional, you're going to miss a shot or two. Chances are also good that you aimed center mass and only got a head shot if recoil favored you. Alternatively, what if I got a few leg shots at x0.90 multiplier? You must also take into account that a lot of Heavies run Lvl 4 or 5 Nanoweave, further buffing their formidable health pool.

    While your listed Shield Bust Times are possible they are not likely. The Orion itself in your ideal situation has a TTK of (7 center mass shots to kill 1000 health player) ~0.559 seconds, or even as low as ~0.2797 seconds if someone were God-tier and landed all head shots. (NW Armor not factored in)

    In a 1 v 1 show down where you notice each other at approximately the same time, that 0.415 seconds time to break the shield is an eternity. Not to mention, Orion player is probably strafing and causing greater than average misses for the opposing player thanks to his x0.75 ADS.

    HA doesn't make a huge difference in medium-large firefights and is definitely not OP there, but he doesn't scale as well in smaller fights of 12 vs 12 or less. A lot of players run the HA with hunting vehicles completely absent from their game plan; they just want a 3rd layer of health. Whether you think it's OP or not, surely you can understand why this could be viewed as a Rambo-promoting crutch by people who notice they would have killed the HA had he been any other class. (I'm looking at you, partially drained green bar) Don't even get me started on intentional rocket primary spam.

    An above average skill HA player who has dependable aim is extremely frustrating to face in these small fights as any other class. You will lose nearly every time. It requires you to be near perfect, and him to make a mistake or two, for you to put him down without assistance or a good ambush. Your odds are even worse as an Infiltrator who was noticed since you literally have about half the HA's health pool and likely aren't running Nano Weave either. Giving the HA shield a tiny activation time would not under power skilled use of the shield, but it would make it less beneficial if he wasn't situationally aware and reduce the "I-Win-Button" factor since he'd have a greater chance of dying before it was turned on. It would probably only be a half second activation time.

    I tend to believe SOE aimed for the HA shield to be a pre-meditated advantage, and less on the fly. Otherwise, they would probably not be considering this nerf, and they also probably would have just made the overshield a permanent automatic addition to the HA's health pool, foregoing the activation entirely. Then it would be the 3rd "oh ****" health layer that 90% of heavies rely on it for. Perhaps you deserve compensation if this change goes through. IE, the overshield drains more slowly if activated in advance, and your movement speed is retained. That would actually be an overall buff when used intelligently and proactively, rather than reactively.

    We can theory craft scenarios endlessly, but the bottom line TL;DR is that in the hands of an above average skill player, the HA is exceptionally powerful and wrecks house in smaller fights.
  5. Scr1nRusher

    The HA Shields are fine.

    If you want to target a actual infantry fight issue, then work on the maxes.
    • Up x 1
  6. Posse

    If you had 50/50 odds against a HA heads on, what would be the point of the HA class? I'd be running LA with jetpacks all day every day, or medic which has the best guns and can heal on top of it.
  7. FillyFluttershy

    • Anti-Air
    • Anti-Vehicle
    • Anti-MAX
    He still has much greater than 50/50 odds if he actually premeditates the shield. Why is that so incomprehensible. It doesn't make the heavy inferior. It just causes him to think, and raises the skill cap while only nerfing his ambush crutch. (Which I might add that unless the player attacking him is perfect, 0.5 seconds could allow him to activate it anyway) Especially if they removed the speed reduction and reduced the shield depletion for having it active. What's so bad about that? That it isn't instant win button**?

    **Developers' words, not mine.
  8. Posse

    It's not anti any of those things, every single one of those units kills a HA in a 1v1, that's what you're talking about right? Because if we talk about team fights, the best squad composition doesn't have many HAs to begin with, so much for the overpowered infantry class ;)

    Ambush crutch? If you're good the HA doesn't have a chance to even activate the shield, if you get the jump on a HA and you die, then you got outgunned, like it or not, when I get the jump on a HA as any class, I don't see any glow 99% of the time before I drop them. Besides, a delay mechanic is terrible from a gameplay perspective, it feels frustrating to use, I already experienced it with the old Saron more than one year ago, no thanks (not to mention that I already have a 0.2 sec delay or more to activate the shield).

    And what you say shows me you have no idea of how clientside detection works, you don't have 0.5 seconds, you have much less time than that.
  9. FillyFluttershy

    Lol? Is that a joke? Should it beat those 1 v 1? (Actually a HA playing smart could kill a solo MAX quite easily) Two HA easily kill an ESF with lock on if he is dumb enough to stick around. I'm not even going to go through the examples here. You're right, man. While SOE is at it, just take the rocket launcher away from HA because he's not any of those things. :rolleyes: You asked what else the point of the HA is besides buffed infantry, and I tried to tell you.

    Maybe sometimes you're outgunned, that's fine. But don't pretend like your shield never saves you from someone who started firing first. Allow me to expand 'ambush' to situations where it's more like HA sees you but hasn't put his sights on you yet to hit you. If you miss (have mercy if you have semi-auto and miss the HA at all) even a little you're probably dead against a decent Heavy.

    Sounds like you'd mainly just be frustrated about having to proactively use the shield instead of only reactively, even if the proactive use delay-based change could be an overall buff to your class. Tell me, if you don't use HA for any of the reasons you scoffed at me for earlier, what reason do you run it? So you own any player who is equal in skill to you but doesn't constantly play HA? Your stats are also like 3/4ths HA. This is in the HA forum so I kind of expect the flames.

    If you aren't ever using your shield to bust into a room for your squad, then it's probably just a reactive extra health crutch. If SOE ever went through with that patch note change it would prove that this was not the intent, and would make clientside hit detection mechanics irrelevant since they'd want you to anticipate damage to benefit anyway.
  10. Scr1nRusher

    You know...... HA's are no different then regular infantry interms of how fast they can die... and how they can die.


    HA are not OP.

    maxes on the other hand...... now those are skill suits.
  11. Chazt

    Well the same could be said for any class on that last part, more often then not missing one or two shots is the difference between winning and losing a firefight.

    I f eel like I should also mention your example wasn't really an "ambush" then, if me and another guy both come around a corner facing and he has his sights up first, it wasn't exactly an ambush xD The shields purpose is to provide more durability in a firefight, if it was still a contest of who shot first there wouldn't really be a difference between a HA and other infantry classes on the ground.

    While I can't speak for the person your addressing I can tell you why I played heavy most of the time over other classes as you pointed out earlier here

    I play heavy primarily because I like the roles usefulness in a variety of situations. As a medic (my second favorite class) I could still kill a ton of people, still be durable using my heals and be able to provide infinite support to my team with a great deal of less risk to myself, so why do I play heavy? Because when it comes to the VERY real threat of a vehicle zerg the heavy assault is the only one capable of wearing down that threat, because I like to be the first one in the room and I like to take the hits for my teammates because I am capable of doing so (Ironically I hate playing MAX). Does the heavy shield provide a boost to you? Well yeah; of course it does, but it isn't such a huge threat to you that you can't overcome it and its real strength only lies in a 1v1 which is not the point of this game.

    Wait they do? I thought we all pretty much universally agreed that flak was better in every situation now because it doesn't affect headshots o.o

    While I can agree that it certainly can seem like an eternity, the numbers here are undeniably minuscule, and as mentioned before it is best to think of this game on a large scale, will a heavy assault have an advantage in a 1v1? Obviously, but so will a guy with a shotgun or smg at point blank range but we don't worry about those things because they only affect a 1v1 scenario. A heavy with his shield up turns him into a giant target in a large scale fight and will just get him swatted down by a hail of bullets. If the heavy was say, as durable as a MAX or a liberator, I would agree with you that he needs to be beat down with the nerf bat because those things can single handedly sway a small battle in their favor, but you really can't say the same thing about a heavy assault. He has his advantages there sure, but by ambushing hi, having better aim or simply coming at him with more than one teammates you can easily overcome it.


    [/quote]

    If the downsides of the shield such as shield drain, activation cost and movement speed penalty were removed I would agree entirely that the shield would need a nerf. But in its current state is has plenty of downsides to offset the good. As mentioned before the heavy assault only has a real advantage when his ability is up so in any situation outside of a 1v1 that point it rendered rather moot. Also consider that even if you do lose a firefight to a heavy assault and popped his shield, it isn't like he is ready to go again and fight six other people with the same advantage he had over you, the shield has a 60 second cooldown when fully drained (45 seconds with max nanite mesh) and even with adrenaline shield the heavy will only regain 140 damage (not even one bullets worth, plus there is still the activation cost) worth of his shield back thus dramatically decreasing his ability to fight your team.
  12. lawn gnome

    i have 13 days worth of play time as my heavy assault and i am perfectly fine with giving the shield a brief charge up before it goes active.

    if someone ambushes me properly then they deserve to be rewarded with a kill, but if i fight them on my terms then they are mine. right now the HA shield is making my lasher viable in solo combat against most classes, and just for reference when i face another heavy head on with my lasher AND shield, i will rarely even pop his over shield before he kills me completely with any weapon.

    giving the shields a small charge up time will make them great for offense (where they already are), and generally bad for defense. as a result we can buff them up so that they can take a few more hits specializing them more for kicking in doors.
  13. Scr1nRusher

    BTW people.


    The shield ALREADY has a 1 second of delay of activating, and thants not factoring clientside related lag and stuff.



    Also the shield and the class overall is Fine.



    BTW...... I love it how people point out the HA play time of anyone that disagrees with this Anti HA agenda thats happening.

    That should tell you something.
  14. Ohmlink

    I find the heavy's ability to kill any target at anytime to be more OP than the shield, it does nothing outside of infantry combat. For 250 certs the class can get a launcher and engage any target in the game relatively effectively.

    Personally I would have given AA lock-ons to another class, but that opens up another group of issues looking at it in the way they currently work.

    In short no changes needed, unless they want another class with rocket launchers running around if they follow my opinion.
  15. lawn gnome

    i have never noticed any lag. i pop my shield and it turns on immediately and i haven't ever noticed any major delay in shield activation of any other heavy i have ever fought.

    the experience thing comes up any time there is a buff/nerf debate. honestly it is pretty mild here compared to the elitism that goes on in any debate involving aircraft.

    i usually reference my experience with something when i am calling for a nerf because it tends to add weight to my argument (i use it lots but still want nerfs).
  16. Scr1nRusher

    how often do you notice a single second?



    But heres the big thing.

    Its not OP, its not gamebreaking/breaking the game.

    You don't see 1000 forum and reddit posts about the HA in a single week.

    you don't see nothing but HA's on the battlefield, HA's aren't the hard counter to everything etc.


    Ha's are still killable, they are not invincible etc.

    HA is FINE its not broken, its not OP, and it doesn't do anything negative to the game.

    The HA shields(BTW) don't stack with flak armor or nanoweave, so they don't make the HA more tanky. if anything when the shields are up it makes them easier kill because the shield isn't effected by player equipped Resistances and its flat shield HP.


    Calling for nerfs on something that doesn't need nerfs, causes wonky game balance.
  17. Posse

    That's what you're talking about, 1v1s, if I wanted to pull real anti-air I'd go grab an AA turret or pull an AA MAX, if I wanted a real anti MAX, I'd pull another MAX, if I wanted a real anti-tank, then I'd pull a ******* Tank with AP+Halberd.

    No, what saves me from someone who started firing first is his own lack of skill, not the shield, and if I saw him before he started firing, it's quite unlikely that he'll fire before I do, I have pretty good reflexes ;)

    And in any case, you're not supposed to fight heads-on against a HA, that's why the other non support classes have tools that make flanking much more effective and deadlier, lol.


    Because a delay mechanic is horribly frustrating to use, as I said, it was really frustrating in the Saron too. And also (and you'd know this if you played the damn class), Adrenaline Shield and NMG are designed to be used reactively, simple as that.

    And no, against a player who is equal in skill to me (say, a LA), it's pretty simple, if he ambushes me, I die, if I don't let him ambush me (which requires situational awareness, something the large majority of the playerbase doesn't have), he dies. Oh, and I run HA because it plays to my strengths (having really good situational awareness), if my strength was my accuracy instead of my situational awareness, I'd definitely play LA.
    • Up x 1
  18. lawn gnome

    an extra second of bullets hitting me? i am pretty sure i would notice that every frigging time. i already regularly abandon reloading my rocket launcher because 5 seconds feels like an eternity.

    the lasher (worst DPS in the game) has a TTK of less than 2 seconds, so i am going to notice a 1 second lag. just skimming over, most TR LMGs have a TTK of less than half a second (carbines seem to be pretty similar in TTK).

    if there were a 1 second lag for ANY reason then absolutely no one would complain about HAs popping shields in combat because the fight would already be decided long before the shield activated.

    just because we don't see endless streams of posts about nerfing HAs, doesn't mean they are perfectly balance (you are simply pushing the logical fallacy to the other end of the spectrum). yes I as a heavy assault can be killed, but that doesn't mean i don't have an edge. i have killed guys in games who were aim botting (yay BF3!), but the aim bot still gave them an edge.

    i have a total of 13 days and 11 hours of gameplay time put into my heavy (official stats linked in signature). i have been out blowing up tanks with rocket launchers since early on in closed beta. you don't have to tell me the weaknesses built into the heavy shield, i know them all. i am still saying that the shield needs a small charge up time for those of us who aren't running on a dial up modem for the same reason that the vanguard shield also needs to be made directional. if someone ambushes you there need to be hard consequences for you, and the person who pulled off the ambush deserves a solid reward. we do not need a button that saves us from an ambush, which is exactly what the current HA shield does.

    if we get rid of the instant activation, then we can also buff the shield itself back to it's old power where you could march into rooms terminator style and be effective.
  19. MrWolf3

    Sigh, I supposed I've been defeated here. Although I still believe there should be an activation time.
  20. lawn gnome

    i want a small activation time so that we can also increase the power of the heavy shield when it is active without it being OP. i would like a heavy shield that generally doubles my HP so i can use it offensively and have it absorb more than 2 or 3 bullets, we CANNOT do that under the current system because that would thoroughly plant it in OP territory.

    I WANT A SHIELD DELAY SO THAT THE SHIELD CAN ALSO BE HEAVILY BUFFED IN RETURN!