HC1 Cougar vs LC2 Lynx? [ROUND 2]

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Luminiouscow, Sep 28, 2014.

  1. Luminiouscow

    The first one I made didn't really ask for what I wanted.

    So I'll make this one.

    Which of these two guns is better for Light Assault? Engineer?

    Which of these two guns are the most fun/satisfying to kill people with?

    Which of these two guns are more similar to the SABR-13 (most fun gun to use in the game, next to the Lasher. and btw, most fun doesn't mean best)?

    Which of these guns serve a better "all-rounder" role?

    Which of these guns have a better TTK?

    Which of these guns are better for teamplay?

    Which of these guns are easier to control?

    And lastly, which of these guns are better paired up with the HS/NV scope?
  2. Saber15

    Lynx, Lynx







    • Up x 2
  3. cruczi

    In other words... lynx.
  4. Snorelamp

    Lynx is better for everything but long range, and the Cougar isn't a very good gun even for that.

    Not that I'd actually recommend the Lynx, since the Jaguar is just plain better.
  5. cruczi

    Jaguar isn't plain better. Lynx has better DPS and is more accurate in ADS while moving.

    When you look at CQC within hipfire range, Lynx is better because Jaguar can't take advantage of the 0.75 ADS. When you look at ADS range, Lynx drops targets faster and more accurately while being more vulnerable to fire. Jaguar rewards highly accurate players with both excellent TTK and the ability to dodge properly, while Lynx rewards in-your-face playstyle and doesn't get punished as much for lower aim skill.
    • Up x 1
  6. gibstorm

    Cougar is good at long range and getting head shots.
  7. Snorelamp

    Lynx' high RoF with 143 tier bloom pretty much cancels out its starting CoF advantages, and then you factor recoil in - even though it has less recoil the lower damage per shot + high RoF means you end up with it getting out of hand faster and I really hate the thing vs. HAs. And it also has lower damage per mag which is a considerable disadvantage for a close range weapons, and is actually a disadvantage for those with lower aim.

    And then there's the cert cost, Jag being 1/4th the cost is a big plus.

    If you desperately want a small TTK advantage, I guess the Lynx is still worth considering but the Jaguar feels way better to me in practice.
    • Up x 2
  8. Iridar51

    Jaguar can take advantage of much better hip fire though.

    I agree, though, Jaguar isn't clearly better than Lynx, but I wouldn't call Lynx a stellar CQC carbine either. TR has a blank spot in this regard. Wish we just had GD-7F. I guess that would be pretty bland, but at least effective.
  9. Iridar51

    For Light Assault - Cougar due to higher reach, but only if you can make those clutch headshots for CQC moments.
    Depends what you find satisfying, riddling enemies with bullets or hammering those hard hitting rounds. I prefer the latter, and the sound here is the most important factor. I find Cougar's sound and looks much more satisfying, at least it looks more or less like a real weapon. Lynx and other TR carbines feel unnecessarily thick.

    >_> Do you even need to ask? It's the questions like these that make me question if you're even a real person, and not some chat bot. Gees, which weapon is more similar to 167/600 precision weapon, a 167/550 precision weapon or 125/909 CQC bullet hose? Gee, I don't know, will have to think hard on it. I'll ask TorokF, maybe he knows.
    Depends on attachments. Cougar with laser is a much better allrounder than Lynx with any attachments, though.
    Real TTK depends on player accuracy. Cougar is much easier to hit shots wtih, but it's theoretical maximum DPS is lower, so unless you can control range and nail headshots, Cougar will be a detriment for you in CQC.
    There are so many different ways to have teamplay. This question can't be answered unless you clarify.
    If I had to assume you mean fights for control points, then most of them are located in CQC environment, so naturally Lynx will be better.

    Does this even need asking? Cougar, obviously.
    Both, though for Cougar HS/NV scope will somewhat cut off a part of the range where Cougar could still be effective.
    • Up x 1
  10. LibertyRevolution

    Go to VR..
    The lynx is a bullet hose ala GD-7F, but with the lower 125 damage teir of an SMG...
    I will take the Jag all day over that crap.

    Cougar is your NC style gun, 550/167, slow fire rate and it lacks that random ↔ recoil.

    I am too cheap to saber 13, I use T1B Cycler, 100 certs for 3 shot burst.. just feels right to me.
  11. Axehilt

    • Cougar is an accurate long-ranged carbine.
    • Lynx is a high-damage short-ranged carbine.
    As engineer, I find long-ranged carbines almost universally work best because I'll have just exited a moments-from-destroyed vehicle and if I face opponents they're typically much further than 20m away from me.

    As light assault it varies. Sometimes you're on a roof (and thus long-ranged) and the Cougar is fantastic, and sometimes you use the jetpack to get right up in peoples' faces (like a tower fight) and the Lynx is fantastic.
  12. Smokki

    Q: Which of these two guns is better for Light Assault? Engineer?
    A: Depends on your playstyle. Are you more comfortable with slow firing weapon that does more damage/bullet or fast firing bullet hose?

    Q: Which of these two guns are the most fun/satisfying to kill people with?
    A: For me, it's Cougar. The fact that I have to land less hits and those hits do more damage makes me feel more confident in battles.

    Q: Which of these two guns are more similar to the SABR-13 (most fun gun to use in the game, next to the Lasher. and btw, most fun doesn't mean best)?
    A: Definitely Cougar (slow fire rate, high damage, optional 2 round burst). It even has the same weapon model.

    Q: Which of these guns serve a better "all-rounder" role?
    A: For me, Cougar. I have CQC build as well as long range marksman build. Lynx is totally useless beyond CQC.

    Q: Which of these guns have a better TTK?
    A: Don't care about this kind of stats / don't know (propably Lynx?). Situations vary so much, that you can't really compare two weapons with ideal conditions.

    Q: Which of these guns are better for teamplay?
    A: Propably Lynx, as it's a close range weapon only, you are more likely to be close to your team while using it. While using Cougar, I tend to be more mobile and hunt down enemies one by one. I don't use Cougar on engineer.

    Q: Which of these guns are easier to control?
    A: Lynx most likely. At time Cougar can be quite annoying to use.

    Q: And lastly, which of these guns are better paired up with the HS/NV scope?
    A: Propably Lynx, though I love the cougar with HS/NV scope.
  13. cruczi

    Jaguar's hipfire is 0.25 better, which is the absolute smallest difference in hipfire accuracy that exists between PS2 weapons. You call that "much better"? I call it peanuts :p

    Also Jaguar meshes better with forward grip than Lynx because you're supposed to take advantage of the 0.75 ADS as often as possible to make it worth picking over Lynx in the first place. Lynx on the other hand benefits more from ALS because you're supposed to maximize your mobility in close quarters, as well as to maximize the effect of the DPS advantage, to make it worth picking over Jaguar.

    In other words, if you're going to use Jaguar with laser sight, you might as well pick the Lynx and enjoy better DPS, and if you're going to use Lynx with forward grip, you might as well pick Jaguar and enjoy higher ADS mobility.
  14. Iridar51

    There's also an issue with Lynx blooming faster. Even with ALS I feel like Lynx has shorter effective hip fire range than freaking TRAC 5 with basic laser.
    Absolutely not necessarily. Think of Jaguar as a bigger version of NS-7. You don't pick forward grip for NS-7 to take advantage of its range supremacy over other SMGs, do you?

    No-no-no. Jaguar's advantage over Lynx is 75% ADS, sure, but what does 75% mean? It means at certain ranges Jaguar can ADS and be faster than 50% ADS weapon, and with ALS Jaguar can go at 100% speed (hip fire) when other weapon with 75% ADS will be forced to ADS.

    Sure Jaguar with forward grip can be used as an all-rounder, but with ALS it becomes a defensive CQC option, much like an SMG. Not quite as pronounced, but in return Jaguar can be effective at much longer ranges, even without forward grip.

    75% ADS speed means the most within 10-20m, when you're trading fire with the opponent, and at that range I don't think you'd really notice if you have forward grip or not. Hip firing with 0-15m, on the other hand, you will notice the absence of ALS immediately.

    If Jaguar went against Lynx, as long a Lynx user is not close enough to effectively hip fire at the head, Jaguar user should always win, because in any instance he can allow himself to be faster and dodge more shots than Lynx user can.

    These are two different philosophies. Mobility and accurate hip fire are defensive traits, high DPS is offensive. One tries to survive longer than opponent, another one tries to kill the opponent before he kills you.
    • Up x 1
  15. cruczi

    Well yes, I suppose it's possible to let the bloom get the better of you. For me, it's not a problem, I usually get the kill fast enough that bloom doesn't matter. Also, ALS mitigates that issue. There's little point in picking Lynx over Jaguar unless you intend to take maximum advantage of the hip fire mobility. ALS is the only choice that makes sense from that point of view, regardless of bloom.

    Actually, as an Infiltrator, forward grip is a perfectly suitable choice since infiltrators don't have access to carbines.

    But the Jaguar vs. Lynx comparison has to do with mobility not range, so why is this relevant ...?

    Why would you expect other 0.75 ADS weapon users to be forced to ADS when you're not? Most of those are SMG's which will outcompete your hipfiring accuracy anyway, and the rest can also equip advanced lasers. This line of reasoning doesn't lead anywhere. When you pick a 0.75 ADS carbine it's purely in order to have better mobility than 0.5 ADS users and equal mobility as 0.75 ADS users, since there are no weapons which can ADS with 1.0 speed.

    Why do you say Jaguar is effective at much longer ranges? I find them to have roughly the same effective range, Lynx may even be better at range. Here's why: Lynx has far lower horizontal recoil, I mean it's on a completely different tier.

    Without forward grip:
    Jaguar = 0.243 to 0.273
    Lynx = 0.179 to 0.199

    With forward grip:
    Jaguar = 0.182 to 0.205
    Lynx = 0.134 to 0.149

    This is no small difference. Lynx is more stable without grip than Jaguar with grip. Combine that with the plus of higher DPS and the minus of higher bloom, and Lynx without grip will perform the same at range as Jaguar with grip.

    Yes, there's a somewhat narrow range window where the ADS speed factor is the most significant, but it still matters at any range where you're taking fire while ADS'ing.

    With Jaguar's high horizontal recoil, forward grip definitely makes a difference in that 10-20 meter range. Especially when aiming at the head. The default recoil is erratic enough to spray bullets on the whole width of the torso at 20 meter. With forward grip it becomes a bit more manageable and makes shooting for the head more viable.

    Naturally, the absence of ALS will show if hipfiring, but don't hipfire unless you have to. Jaguar suits a playstyle which revolves around picking engagements where you can ADS and take advantage of the one thing that sets it apart from other carbines bar the low DPS NS-11C.

    By "always" you probably mean "on average"? "Always" just reeks of exaggeration and hyperbole.

    Lynx doesn't rely on head shots, it's a low damage per shot weapon with bloom that makes you miss the head relatively easily. It relies on 0.462 second TTK on the torso within 15 meters. Beyond that 15 meter range, the ADS speed of Jaguar starts to become significant because Lynx will always have to ADS too, but within 15 meters Lynx is the just as good if not better, regardless of what rail attachment you pick on the Jaguar.

    Mobility is a defensive trait, yes, and ADS mobility is what sets Jaguar apart from Lynx. High DPS is an offensive trait, agreed, and that's what sets Lynx apart from Jaguar. Both weapons are capable of accurate hip fire. The gist of the matter, though, is that Jaguar's ADS mobility advantage matters only when ADS'ing, while Lynx's DPS advantage matters always. When both are within hipfire range, Lynx will simply win regardless of Jaguar equipping an ALS. When in ADS range, the DPS advantage is at odds with the mobility advantage and it's anyone's guess who will come out on top - the only way Jaguar can improve its odds in the domain where it's supposed to be different from Lynx is to equip a forward grip.
  16. Stargazer86

    Ahem. The Trac-5 is better than both.
  17. Iridar51

    I meant Jaguar compared to an SMG.

    75% ADS ARs are quite popular, so is Orion / SVA 88. ARs with ALS will still have worse hip fire, and because they're much more viable at range, they often equip forward grips instead of ALS. 75% ADS LMGs even with laser have meh hip fire accuracy, except for maybe NS-15M.

    Again, I meant compared to an SMG. But Jaguar has further effective range than Lynx too. That's where theorycrafting falls apart. It just doesn't work, Lynx does too little damage per bullet to be effective at range. Or anywhere, for that matter.

    I could say the same about Lynx. Any weapon will be more effective if you get to fire first, or from a better position. 75% ADS won't really help if you're not fired upon in return.

    Lynx doesn't rely on headshots, but neither can it do headshots. I've never said Jaguar is easier to use. But for a skilled user Jaguar is superior.

    Where Lynx can hip fire, Jaguar can hip fire at the head. Where Lynx has to ADS, Jaguar can hip fire at the body.

    That's where you and I disagree. I don't consider Lynx to have accurate hip fire. I may be speaking on emotional grounds, I haven't spent with the new Lynx as much time as with other TR carbines, but I've used it for some time, and at that time Lynx made an impression of much shorter effective hip fire and ADS ranges without high enough DPS to compensate, and a lower damage tier felt like a penalty instead of an advantage or at least a sidegrade.
  18. cruczi

    Not sure why you're talking about SMG's. I must have missed the point, can you reiterate why the comparison of Jaguar vs SMG's is relevant when discussing Jaguar vs Lynx?

    Okay, you meant specific 0.75 ADS weapons rather than other 0.75 ADS weapons in general.

    Here's the deal though. Below are scenarios where you go into a fight with a 0.75 ADS opponent at a range where you can still hipfire accurately.

    You go into a fight with a HA. You expect him to ADS regardless of whether he has Orion/SVA-88. And regardless of whether your Jaguar has ALS, you can maintain hipfire mobility to a much further range than the Orion/SVA-88 user can. Thus, your ALS doesn't really improve your mobility relative to the opponent, it just improves your accuracy.

    You go into a fight with a Medic. You expect that he probably has a forward grip on his rifle so his hipfire starting COF even with a CQC rifle is roughly double your Jaguar's ALS bolstered hipfire starting COF. So you always expect him to ADS. You will be able to use the full movement speed advantage against both 0.75 ADS and 0.5 ADS enemies, success! Without ALS, the range where you could get that mobility advantage would be a bit shorter, but you would still benefit from it from time to time. Thus, your ALS provides some mobility advantage over a 0.75 ADS opponent, but mostly has to do with accuracy.

    You go into a fight and if your opponent has an SMG, you expect him to hipfire. No mobility advantage gained, and his hipfire accuracy will be better, and his TTK will possibly be better.

    You go into a fight with a LA/Engi. If he also has a high mobility carbine, you will be on par with his mobility and hipfire accuracy.

    Out of all these scenarios, only the one against CQC AR's is interesting. This undermines your argument pretty heavily, as most 0.75 ADS weapon users against whom you want to get your mobility advantage by equipping ALS will not be CQC AR users.

    Based on what?

    Why are you only looking at one side of the coin (damage) and ignoring the other (ROF) (while also ignoring the point about horizontal recoil)? I'm sorry but I find Lynx to be a very effective weapon, and quite effective at range thanks to the low recoil and high DPS. I'm gonna call user error on this one. I just Auraxiumed this weapon and the memory is fresh of how it plays at range.

    I didn't say anything about not being fired upon in return, or firing first. I just said picking engagements where you can ADS instead of having to hipfire.

    Of course it can do headshots, even up to a pretty good distance in ADS. It's possibly even better than Jaguar at mid range headshots thanks to the low recoil. What I meant was that the COF bloom favors body shots when hip firing, or when ADS'ing in full auto.

    Sure, skill matters. I mentioned in my original reply to Snorelamp that Lynx doesn't punish bad aim as heavily, largely due to having such high DPS. Jaguar needs higher skill aim to perform at the same level, but it's certainly also possible that a high skill aimer will take Jaguar further than Lynx, not only because head shots are more rewarding with higher damage bullets, but by using 0.75 ADS speed efficiently and in the right situations.

    That's oversimplifying things (I think you've heard that before :D). The ranges where each weapon can hipfire to the head overlap significantly, as do the ranges where they can hipfire to the body instead of ADS'ing. In reality:
    1. When there's overlap in the hipfire to head range, the weapons are equal - Jaguar offsets the lower base DPS with better headshot damage.
    2. When Jaguar gets to hipfire to head but Lynx doesn't, Jaguar's accuracy will be lower than Lynx's accuracy, because if it wasn't, the range would be close enough for Lynx to also aim at the head. Thus, what additional damage Jaguar gets from headshots is partially offset by Lynx's consistent damage to the torso, but on average Jaguar will win. Arguably this range is quite narrow, since the difference between the hipfire starting COF's is also quite small.
    3. When there's overlap in the hipfire to torso range, Lynx's higher DPS generally stomps over Jaguar. Since Lynx has to halve movement speed when ADS'ing, it's best to postpone that until a distance where the disadvantage in accuracy reduces the effective DPS to Jaguar's level.
    4. When Lynx finally has to ADS to compete, there will be a short distance where Jaguar gets to keep hipfiring. But at that point, we're talking range where Lynx improves accuracy again, and the movement speed advantage of Jaguar will be partially offset by Lynx's higher DPS. In addition, Jaguar can't take full advantage against a 0.5 ADS opponent unless aiming at the head, which is no longer possible from the hip. Thus, the penalty of having to ADS isn't much of a penalty for Lynx - both weapons will simply fire at the torso and hope for the best.
    5. Finally, Jaguar will also have to ADS at some point, which brings us back to the pure DPS vs 0.75 ADS speed scenario where it's anyone's guess who will win. But since all the previous scenarios assume both weapons have ALS equipped, that means Lynx has far better horizontal recoil, and what Jaguar gains in mobility, it loses in accuracy, while Lynx still has TTK on its side.
    I only started using Lynx after the TR carbine revamp, and Auraxiumed it very recently. It has accurate enough hipfire to be extremely practical. So many Heavies died for that medal...
  19. Iridar51

    It's not that relevant, I was just comparing how similar Jaguar to an SMG, with its good hip fire and 75% ADS. Hip fire not as good as SMGs', but much greater range.

    Well I mean - SMGs are gonna hold advantage anyway, over both of those weapons, it's their main selling point.
    Provided you can get headshots, accuracy is DPS. SMGs also have to use accuracy to their advantage, though naturally their hip fire range is greater.

    Good point.