[Suggestion] Harrasser tank shell vulnerability needs adjusted

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Clipped!, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Clipped!

    Been tanking for a while both before (lots) and after (somewhat less) I'd have to say that as of right now, they need their buff toned down as they currently perform as good or better than their main intended vehicle counter and/or deterrent, the lightning, in nearly all aspects. Why? Because they no longer harass due to their durability, they instead hunt, despite devs saying: "ultimately the role of the Harasser continues to be to pick off wounded targets, and engage in hit and run gameplay" and I can show you why with numbers alone.

    Personally my thoughts is that harasser's tank shell vulnerability need to be 35% or higher. 35% vulnerability an ideal number as it allows them to still need three Lightning AP shots to kill or four with composite armor, but it prevents harasser from survive a fifth from scrambled repairs. But on to undeniable facts, like math.

    "Harassers" are quickly able to get in and out with a small, hard to hit profile, and capable of having an anti-vehicle weapon that are easy to aim and are as or more destructive as the tanks' cannons that are meant to counter them, and do so without having to hit the tank's flank. They can easily destroy targets while on the move while tanks have to be stationary to hit anything large as a lightning at medium to long range. And on top of that harassers can eat as many tank shells as a lightning which has almost twice the numerical health and more than twice the nanite cost which should be itself should send a clear "Unbalanced" signal to anyone with some common sense or who knows how destructive power harassers' AV guns are. And lastly, the fact that a significantly less expensive and less durable vehicle takes much less damage from a tank than a tank does from another tank is insane.

    Just take a look at the health and effective health numbers:

    Harasser costs 150 nanites and has 2500 health (3000 with composite armor which is used almost exclusively). The Lightning AP cannon (which fires tank shells) deals a base damage of 700 and since Harassers currently take 20% more from tank shells, they will receive 140 more damage than listed on the card, for a total of 840 damage.

    Lightning costs 350 nanites and has 4000 health. The Lightning AP cannon (which fires tank shells) deals a base damage of 700 and and since currently all tanks (including lightnings) take 50% more from tank shells and they will receive 350 more damage than listed on the card thus takes a total of 1050 damage.

    Now for some heavier math for what the above means:

    2500 (standard harasser health) divided by 840 is 2.97, meaning you need 3 hits with a Lightning AP to kill, or a fourth if they've had any repairs at all.

    3000 (composite harasser health) divided by 840 is 3.57, meaning you need 4 hits with a Lightning AP to kill, or five if they've haven't just started repairing as four 840 hits is 3360, and the time to repair 360 health in the rear/jockey seat of a harasser with it's current repair penalty is just over 2 seconds if the gunner decides to change seats, or the driver activates fire suppression which with composite armor heals 450 health, both of which will have plenty of time to do so when they realize they've taken a third shot.

    4000 (lightning health) divided by 1050 is 3.8, meaning you need four hits with a Lightning AP to kill a lightning, or a fifth if they activate fire suppression after the third hit.

    Result: both need four hits from a Lightning AP to be destroyed, or a fifth if they've received timely repairs. Or in other terms, a harasser can survive the same amount of hits from a Lightning, as another Lightning, despite the harasser having 1500 less health and costing 200 nanites less.

    As for the math on how often you can spawn these two vehicles:

    If you spawn a Harasser and it gets destroyed shortly after (within 60 seconds or so), you can pull five more as it costs 150 nanites, and the nanite capacity is 750. 750 divided by 150 is 5. Thus, If you lose your harasser and you want to pull another one, you can do so without worry about not being able to use one for quite some time.

    If you spawn a Lightning and it gets destroyed shortly after (within 60 seconds or so), you can only pull one more as it costs 350 nanites the nanite capacity is 750, and 350 times two is 700. Thus If you lose your lightning and you want to pull another one, you've got to be sure you can keep it or put it to good use or you can't use one for a while

    Which means: that if a lightning and a harasser were to duke it out, and the Harasser loses, it can keep on coming back until they win, but if the Lightning loses, they only get a one extra try.

    And since Lightnings and other tanks have to be relatively stationary to reliably hit vehicles while Harasser AV guns can easily hit other vehicles targets while moving at high speeds, the lightning is an easy target to strike while the harasser is a rather difficult one.

    If you've read this far, then you now know that there is overwhelming evidence that the tank shell vulnerability of harasser's. It's not fun having needing three hours to type and revise a detailed, thorough, and unbiased post on why harassers are currently too durable to tank cannons. And yes, I made a backup.

    Personally my thoughts is that harasser's tank shell vulnerability need to be 35% or higher. 35% vulnerability an ideal number as it allows them to still need three Lightning AP shots to kill or four with composite armor, but it prevents harassers from survive a fifth from scrambled repairs.
    • Up x 2
  2. oberchingus

    I agree. I want the old harasser back, from 2013. And old Halberd.
  3. Savadrin

    Wait, what? Did Harasser top guns get a buff since I left? All I ever saw was tankers whining because their situational awareness was on par with crystallized honey. Harasser guns were categorically worse than tank SECONDARIES in essentially every way that was important, from damage to drop. Next you're going to tell me that the boombox is worthless even though it's literally the easiest/strongest weapon in CQC and the most terrifying sound to hear on the field for anyone outside of NC. Maybe also if you're NC, lol.

    Did tanks lose directional armor too? I must have missed quite a lot.

    Bro! My sig links stopped working but this is Fayle. Are you guys still running jeeps? I updated to the DX11 version but haven't played yet. I'm really thinking about coming back. Is the harasser lyfe good again? I got so frustrated with TRash weapons outside of the Vulc that I didn't care much. And finding a real gunner is well, yeah.

    I find it hilarious this same old argument is still going on, lol.
  4. Campagne

    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but in case you're being sincere:

    Clipped might not, but I sure as hell will!

    The Mjolnir is the worst of the three short-range ESAV secondaries in really every way. Complete down-grade
  5. Savadrin

    Campagne you and I have had this argument before, years ago on the boards, lol. On a whim some friends decided to play NC a few/many months back and I put a boombox on top of my uncerted harasser. The consensus of TR players was that it felt unfair to use because you could lay waste to literally anything and everything you passed by. The only mechanically comparable weapon is the fracture/gatekeeper or whatever they're calling it, which is complete and utter trash in comparison. The fracture takes like 30 direct hits to kill infantry (hyperbole but it's more than a full cycle) and probably only beats the bassy/cobalt in TTK.

    People act like the Vulcan is god, but the skill ceiling on the Vulcan is the same as the floor. If you can't handle more than hold left click then it's certainly the weapon for you. I would take the Aphelion every day of the week with a competent gunner, and the boombox over that. The Vulcan was strong back when you could one-clip a lightning at SUB 12 METER RANGE. I dare you to engage a non-mouth-breathing lightning with the Vulcan at 50-75m.

    Next you'll say that the enforcer sucks too which was also not even close to my experience in the few times I got to use it, lol.
  6. Liewec123

    I'd probably say mjolnir is better than aphelion, but there isn't any doubt that vulcan is best :)
    Just spew bullets in the general direction of the enemy and watch their hp melt.

    Side note:if anyone is playing TR and hates harassers, try using MCG against one,
    For some reason it absolutely obliterates them :D
  7. Campagne

    Now I know, surely you must not be serious! :p

    Oh I don't doubt we've talked on it before. :D This is a false comparison, the Mjolnir and Gatekeeper. Mechanically the two are very distinct and largely share only a burst-fire mechanic. Otherwise the Mjolnir fires slower, heavier grenades in an arcing pattern into a very large cone whereas the GK fires six times faster, launches rockets with a higher projectile velocity which increases as they fly, is substantially more accurate, and deals more damage per rocket with a general focus on longer-ranged use. If not for reloading the GK would have a dramatically higher DPS from significantly longer range.

    Also the Mjolnir is hilarious against infantry. It would take at least five direct hits to kill a stock infantry target meaning at least two bursts. But given the pathetic accuracy even at almost a touch the Mjolnir would miss at least one or two grenades per burst against the small thin planetman.

    The Vulcan is easily the best topgun in the game, no question. Godlike, maybe not. It's not a Tank Buster at least, but amazing never the less. The sheer DPS combined with the point-an-click ease of use makes it an insanely powerful weapon which synergizes with the harasser perfectly.

    If you are trying to use a Vulcan at 50+ meters the problem is with the driver. A Mjolnir would struggle to even hit a Lightning at that range and an Aphelion would fair only slightly better than the Vulcan. It's a short-ranged spamcannon, why are ya' trying to use it at long range?

    Enforcer? Sucks? Why, it hasn't sucked since its great inception! Oh, no wait. The opposite is true, its sucked ever since it was nerf'd shortly following its release back before the harasser even existed, if I can recall correctly. There was a time where it just OHK'd infantry and therefore acted as a direct upgrade to the Halberd due to the extra DPS and similar stats as well. Then, it was nerf'd and nerf'd again much later. Did you know it doesn't reload per rocket anymore? The NC have pulled considerably more Halberds as Enforcers and Mjolnirs for both platforms for years, which can only be said about the NC's ESAV topguns.

    Lemme hit ya' up with that source:
    http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/items/vehicles/subtype/vanguard gunner weapon
    http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/items/vehicles/subtype/harasser top gunner

    I certainly can't say I at all agree! At least, regarding the Mjolnir in comparison to the Aphelion. :p

    Aphelion's got range and practical DPS advantages as well as the wave-burst which penetrates enemy infantry and vehicles. If nothing else it's a lot more engaging to use and enjoyable for skilled gunners.
    • Up x 1
  8. Clipped!

    Campegne has some very good points, but the enforcer is meant to be mid range and is pretty damn good if you stay at halberd range or so. The only downsides to the enforcer has to the halberd is that it takes a second direct hit to kill infantry vs the halberd's one, and it has half the damage per shot against armor. That said, the enforcer is way better against armor than the halberd as it's damage is significantly more sustained without trading range or all of it's alpha damage, which means less wasted overkill damage. 600 + 600 every 3.25 seconds afterward vs 325 + 325 every 1 second afterward for the next 6 six shots (or 7 for MBT). So in 7 seconds the halberd does 1800 AV damage, while the enforcer does 2275 or 2600 for the MBT version. On top of that, the amount of time required to empty a magazine with the enforcer synergies well with the AP's reload time (1250 DPR vs tanks with 3.75 second reload), allowing the AP cannon a chance to not need to fire a third shot that wastes half it's damage against a tank as two Titan AP shots deal just barely more than half a non-NC MBT's health (1250 per shot against tanks X2 is 2550; 2500 + 2600 is 5650; 5000 - 5650 is -650). This synergy also means that an mere extended peek from an AP Vanguard with an enforcer top gun can kill an enemy MBT that has a decent scratch on it.
  9. Liewec123

    Penetrative projectiles is such an utterly useless niche though, as NC mains we know this from Bishop,
    I use bishop regularly and I've managed to kill more than one person (accidentally) a grand total of ONE time XD

    For top guns mjolnir is a lot easier to use than aphelion, I guess it is all preference, but imho the hierarchy is clear,
    Aphelion is worst, mjolnir is good and vulcan is best.
  10. AllRoundGoodGuy

    Don't lie, you TK'ed 2 people didn't you?
  11. Scrundle

    This isn't relevant to the discussion at hand but the TK comment reminded me so I just HAVE to share this;

    Headshot TK's proc Critical Chain implant, which is STILL BROKEN and doesn't expire. So enjoy those 50% faster firing bolt actions y'all. All you need is an "accidental" headshot when you step out of the spawn chamber and boop, those hands are glowing. The most NC of implants.
  12. Scroffel5

    I am gonna pick on my least favorite Harrasser, the TR Harrasser. We were at the Bastion, me and the boys. I mean, the boys and I. We were wrapping up, and out of nowhere, a TR Harrasser pulls up. It is a 3/3 Harrasser, and they are wreaking havoc. A guy in a lightning is there helping us, but the Lightning kills him first. We are all like "Wut" and then the Harrasser is shooting at all of us. I shoot it a few times with the Hunter QCX, and it runs away, but it comes back. Dude gets another Lightning and waits, and then we finally blow it up, all 4 of us shooting at it together. Lightning dude is smoking, but the rest of us are OK. That is just what I don't get. Why can the Harrasser be everything the Flash can't be? The Harrasser is fast, more health, resistant to tanks, and puts out a lot of damage, all for 150 Nanites. That isn't a lot.

    People complained about the Flash being able to destroy tanks, but only when it had a Heavy with a Decimator on the back, hence the name Fury/Deci Wraith Flash. They got the Wraith Cloak nerfed, but that didn't do anything except discourage people to use it, so they buffed it again, but not to the same standard as the previous cloak. They complain that a Flash shouldn't be able to down a tank, it doesn't need to be any faster, it doesn't need any more health, it doesn't need any better weapons. At least that is what they said on my posts. The thing is, we already have all of that. It is called the Harrasser. I only suggested that the Flash be passively faster, maybe while the Wraith cloak is active, so you can get away if you haven't already been blown up. The Harrasser doesn't need a cloak because it moves so fast and puts out so much damage that it doesn't matter. And get this; THE HARRASSER HAS A RUMBLE SEAT! You can just put a Heavy with a Decimator on that and blow stuff up when you pull up next to it. The Harrasser is the Flash v.2 minus a Wraith Cloak.
  13. Savadrin

    I've done nearly everything that one can do in a harasser over the years. While it's true that you CAN put a heavy in the rumble seat, your third usually gets shot out during or immediately following the first engagement. Can work? Yes. Does work? Only in select circumstances.

    My personal favorite is putting a Pounder MAX in with a Vulcan, or a Burster MAX in with the Ranger. Each has its drawbacks but it's a lot of fun until the MAX gets shot out of the back and nobody is a medic, lol. But I'll tell you what, you can feel the palpable panic when the stealth harasser shows up with not only Vulcan BRRRRRRRT but a full complement of pounders. Tanks just get deleted.
  14. Campagne

    I won't argue it's super useful, certainly not on a rather slow-firing weapon where very short range would be required for the highest chance of a penetration hit. :p

    But on the Aphelion the burst can hit and kill, injury, or scare crews back into vehicles while trying to repair potentially forcing them to engage a target whom is already firing on them while they are at low health. Great against deployed sunndies and the defenseless engineers trying to keep it alive.

    I'd argue the opposite, actually. The Aphelion obviously will be a lot less effective if the user doesn't burst, but it'll be very simple and straight-forward to use if just holding down the mouse. A Mjolnir has to lead and account for drop a lot more than the other two, and doesn't have a consistent stream of rounds going down range to base anything off of.
  15. iller

    Lightnings are fine, I think MBT's themselves just need a bit higher Resistance. You can't balance everything with "Health" pools. I know they did a full Patch where they tried to remove all the different Resistance schedules because they had too many to juggle around when trying to balance stuff. But MBT's should be that 1 special case (and maybe Skywhale also) where they CAN'T just die instantly b/c two Harrassers or three ground Lockons all decided to focus one down from relative safety
  16. Clipped!

    Personally I think tanks are good as is right now, and since ground lock-ons take to to both lock, travel, and reload I think they're fine as it takes a full six rocket magazines to kill an MBT and the occurence of two people locking on to a single target is quite rare for aircraft, and almost never happens at all on ground vehicles even in 48-96 fights. Harassers on the other hand are currently just a significantly cheaper and evasive lightning with an easier to use gun that is both as or more destructive to vehicles and only requires a second person, which finding a gunner is fairly easy and is not a substantial enough downside to compensate or be balanced for the increased cost of a lightning in a combat scenario without some other aspect being against the harasser, which is it's tank shell vulnerability. But since now harassers are now as durable as a lightning, that balance is completely thrown out the window.

    The summary of the OP: harassers can output as much or more damage, are much more mobile and evasive, have close to half the numerical health, cost less than half compared to a lightning, but require a second person. This would be balanced by harassers being less durable than a lightning in a fight but since currently they have the same durability as each other when fighting each other, the harasser has a massive advantage that is simply in dire need of rectifying for a vehicle that's purpose is as the devs have stated: "to pick off wounded targets, and engage in hit and run gameplay", yet is actually able to outright hunt and kill more expensive targets with ease due to the imbalance.
  17. 0fly0

    And old PPA.
  18. oberchingus

    While we're on the subject, old everything. Though ironically, something mesmerizing happened. Not sure if the devs overlooked because they never play or what, but all the old NS guns are AMAZING right now. In fact, you're not going to believe this, but the Bully is so good, i've maxed one out on RED! People are like, the Bulldog?! What are you on fodollah???!??? It usually takes them 1 mag to fall in love with it vs infantry and 2 mags vs vehicles. The splash damage is so great that Wrel's chosen (Heavies & LA) die quickly even when their hopping around or flying. In clumps, it does what the 2013 Marauder used to do. And of course I love driving for guns that do everything. Don't worry. Devs never actually look on the forums, so this little tidbit will remain a secret FOREVER!!!

    Zephyr does work vs tanks. It's great Dalton practice. Slow timely shots, and you can do work vs everything. I mean infantry run flak 5 of course and engies get it free, but still. It's a shadow of its former glory, but far less useless now than it was when they nerfed it. Kobalts hurt Lightnings and Buses, albeit slowly. Fury and Halberd got gimped. CAI was a big F U to ECUS and competent AV crews.

    Hey dude. People are always complaining about the same things. Nothing changes. Except vehicles get nerfed. Same old, same old. I didn't read other people's posts about guns cause I'm an ECUS elitist and I think everyone is wrong, unless they can best me and mine at my game. I think the top crews in their classes feel the same. It's like me telling you what noseguns are ****, like why would I have an opinion about ESFs. Though I did learn to successfully reverse manoeuvre with the mossie after reading Hader's guide and Dudis's video. Great stuff.

    I'm about to take another 3 month break, but yes I reinstalled and yes I drive cars and libs again and sometimes ANTs. I even got myself a Spur for all my libs. It's fun farming doorways in a comp lib with Lumis. A handful of ECUS people play, so you can hit people up. There's actually a guy on Emerald TR, Amarthen, and he's trying to revive the harasser game, starting on TR. We call them Budget ECUS, and I've been tutoring him on the side in the ways of fodollah's harasser. So stay tuned. He seems committed the way I used to be back in the day.

    Yeah, since CAI killed the AV game, the only ground crews you see are Connery style zergs that move in large herds, sucking the teats of their rep busses and skyguards. The moment one overextends, they have no clue how to actually fight anything on their own. It's a glorious farm when you single them out, but getting them to leave their herd and overextend can be tricky. And yes, since they did away with directional armor and made Lightnings highly competitive, it is much harder to drop one in a car, unless you catch a real crystallized honey operative. Basically, Wrel made everything he uses better, so Dalton doesn't OHK ESFs and Lightnings can't be easily beaten, unless I'm driving and I do the fodollah boop move and attempt to flip them.

    Hit me up in 3 months. I'll be back in September. Happy to drive you around in a car, or even a lib. Been doing lots of Shredder/Bulldog for business mode and Dalton/Shredder+Walker/Mememissles for air anamolies. Great farms. Oh and the Lib's belly got a buff vs flak, so that's a thing, and you can boop ESFs while taking less damage.

  19. 0fly0

    I 'm not surprise, i will give it a try today, i'm in full harrasser mode atm i'm sick of infantry fight and running people over is just so much fun.
    I don't know if they change it though, i think you're right they just overlooked it because not a lot of people play with it...
    Pretty much every AI weapon are nerf now

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