[Suggestion] Harasser Health Nerf

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Trebb, May 14, 2020.

  1. TRspy007

    Ping/lat and just coordination. If one of your crew gets disconnected or is slower than the others, you're dead.

    And then there's the issue they can't reliably keep the coms up. Imagine you want to pull a tanks after a "hotfix" but all the coms are down again. Sure, you can set up discord, which means you can't pick up randoms.

    Also I just fail to see how people could coordinate themselves for this to work. Everyone is just so focused on xp, they can't even coordinate a basic push/flank with their team. You think the dude who can't even let his team know he's about to crap a nuke on them is going to work effectively as a team vehicle?

    Idk, I don't think Planetside 2 is equipped for that. Also most of the community now has shifted from being tacticool to just brainless farmers. I don't see how you'd be able to convince people to give up kills for driving around. They would really have to buff the suitability of tanks if they were to detach the driver from gunner. Right now it's just too risky to place your hands in a driver unless you're in certain vehicles.
  2. Clone117

    The lightning would still be a 1 man vehicle . decoupling the turret from vehicle rotation doesnt mean make the vehicle a two seater. What it means is that the gun would be more stable whilst moving and our aim wouldnt be thrown off or moved off target so drastically while making various turns and attempts to avoid incoming fire. Basically allowing to better engage and chase down moving targets without needing to stop to try and line up a shot. Which means we should have an easier time targeting and hitting that fleeing harraser all while recklessly chasing after it. There is no need to add an extra seat here. Currently shooting whilst moving is possible. But its extremely handicapped. Decoupling should solve that issue. Having vehicle movement via turns and little bumps effect the turret so badly is pretty much why vehicles like the lightning are almost helpless against harrasers. we can force them too flee but we cant outright chase them down to destroy them. This is why they win the engagement.
  3. KhlorosTesero

    Better idea, buff rockets so that they actually do something rather then hitting like limp noodles. Even the decimator feels weak for a rocket launcher.
    • Up x 5
  4. McToast

    The "certain vehicle" has a dedicated driver, which you consider a downside, and a dedicated gunner with a - sometimes nerfed - MBT secondary. You consider a vehicle with split driver/gunner, less health and half of the firepower of an MBT to be overpowered...

    I play MBTs and I play Harassers. The only times a Harasser can really wreck us is when we're already engaged with another target and he pops up from behind. Which is exactly how it should be.
  5. Johannes Kaiser

    True, I preferred rocket launchers having only a very small ammo supply but being able to do decent damage when hitting.
    • Up x 1
  6. TRspy007

    It can be a downside yes. However it's quite easy for a harasser to get roadkills - something that wouldn't match the playstyle of tanks. The harasser is also quite cheap and extremely mobile. Even if the guy get's disconnected or the gunner doesn't realize what to shoot at, it's easy to escape that situation, or simply pull a new vehicle when unable to. With tanks, that simply would not work.

    The MBT secondaries typically have much higher DPS than the main MBT cannon. It's definitely not half of the firepower, I wouldn't have issues if that were the case.

    The harasser is able to quickly engage any ground vehicle and quickly dispose of it, or escape in the rare occasions it is unable to do so. The harasser might have less health, but it has more resistances and is able to repair on-the-run, while remaining difficult to hit.

    The harasser can quickly get behind a tank and 1-clip it. It can also do a lot of damage to infantry while surviving a vehicle's biggest threat: C4.

    I also recall the NC boombox harasser can 1 clip a sunderer. And the VS and TR equivalents can 2 clip them (not to mention all can 1 clip both MBTs and lightnings). If you think that sounds fair and is the role of a "harasser", not quite sure what to say.

    It's also a problem with the game's extrapolation. Often I see a harassers make abnormal turns on my screen all of a sudden. The vehicles move faster and has weird driving mechanics, it's much easier to miss due to the game's mechanics when ping/lat are involved.

    You also seemed to forget that other vehicles exist beyond MBTs. Odd that the second cheapest vehicle in-game can have such destructive potential - especially against vehicles that cost 3x their price.
    • Up x 2
  7. nagibator

    harasser hp ok. maybie can lower mine guard effect 70 to 60-50. if harraser harassment force you cry on forum. stop footzergling and grab harraser too
  8. Johannes Kaiser

    Great suggestion, and if everyone is mobisized, what vehicle to hob in next, at the point when there is no infantry left?
    • Up x 1
  9. TRspy007

    lol funny, no one complained about not being able to footzerg due to them.

    We're saying they are too strong against both infantry and vehicles.

    What is nerfing mine guard supposed to do?

    Everyone uses minesweeper, mines are bugged anyways.

    Really no clue where mine guard comes into play in any of this conversation.

    Besides, if something is wrong, we don't all start doing it. That's not a solution. If we all run harassers, we won't be able to cap bases, and we might as well remove the other vehicles and just turn the game into mariocartSide 2.
  10. McToast

    Apologies for ripping your post apart like that, but there's too much in there I want to comment on :).

    True to some point. But from personal experience I can tell you that a Harasser crew needs to coordinate and communicate more than an MBT crew. I play and enjoy both.

    Alright. Give me MBT primaries on the Harasser, I'd be ok with that :].

    It's not about "resistances", it's about TTK. And even if you engage an MBT from the rear he will still be able to kill you much quicker - if the MBT crew realises the danger and is able to hit with their weapons, which a lot of the potatoes and tomatoes can't, I'll give you that. But the same people would loose every single engagement against the Harasser crew if those pulled an MBT. It's a matter of skill disparity, not game balance.

    Again: Even from behind, the Harasser dies, even if just the topgunner of the MBT shoots back and hits as much as the Harasser gunner.

    I don't blame ping when I miss Harassers, even though the game is a bit iffy in that regard. I do miss Harassers because they are fast and agile. If I could nail them like I can hit other MBTs I would slaughter them every. single. time.. I HAVE to miss for them to have a fighting chance.

    Apart from the Galaxy, I use all vehicles in the game, I certainly don't forget about them. But I agree with the cheap cost. That's why I proposed to raise the Nanite cost of the Harasser from 150 -> 300 or even 350. That's the only issue I see: You can chainpull Harassers from every vehicle pad and even if you throw around tank mines and C4 like 1$ bills in a strip club you'll never run out of Nanites. If you pull an MBT, drop some mines, and loose the tank, you'll often find yourself missing the Nanites to pull a new one. If you alternate with your topgunner and use boosts this isn't an issue either, but it just never happens with a Harasser.

    I believe that vehicles are too readily available and too weak in general, but looking at the current cost balance, Harassers are too cheap and that's the screw I would turn. If you make the Harasser noticeable weaker, even good crews wouldn't be able to utilize it effectively and it'd become a deathtrap for the lesser skilled players. At the moment it's just sturdy enough to allow you to get away - as long as you aren't already commited -, if a tank really puts you into it's crosshairs. The good MBT crews would pop Harassers right and left if TTK drops by a shot or two. The Harasser would become a bigger flash without cloak. If you'd nerf the offensive capabilites noticeably, the risk vs. reward factor would tilt to "not worth it" pretty quick. In my opinion combat balance in vehicle warfare is good right now, cost balance is not.
    • Up x 1
  11. Werkitten

    Here I will simply repeat what I wrote earlier. The whole question is about harasser's supposed role. If you consider it as a combat vehicle, something like a light wheeled tank, then its characteristics are OK, but it should cost more (about 300 nanites).
    If it is a vehicle on which the weapon is "just in case", then need to reduce the armor and health.
    The second option is bad because the game simply does not have a tactical niche for a light machine for 1-3 people, not designed for direct combat. This could be a scout vehicle, but in this game, intelligence has a very limited use, and important objects whose location is unknown in advance, almost not. Linking certificates to the farm as the main goal of the game also does not allow you to implement other options, except for getting kills in direct combat.
    • Up x 2
  12. Clone117

    Its not really a skill disparity. infact its more of a mechanics disparity. Ground vehicle passenger gunners have it easier in general. They Can can keep their gun sights trained on an enemy target more easily than lightning and mbt pilots. Simply because the vehicle turrets they use are decoupled from vehicle movement so every little turn or bump they make doesnt completely throw off their aim by a massive amount. Raising nanite cost of the vehicle isnt going to solve this if harrasers suffered from the same coupled turret mechanic as lightning do where simply rotating the vehicle rotated the turret as well then harrasers themselves would be finding themselves forced to stop just to line up a shot. Then the only ground vehicle remaining that would be worth anything would be the flash and magrider.
    • Up x 1
  13. McToast

    I'd be all for stabilised, decoupled tank turrets. I really don't know why they did it the way they did. Maybe they thought it might be more intuitive? Because with decoupled main gun, tanks would have to a/d move and aim seperatly, which may be more difficult for novices. I can see new players driving into walls while trying to aim at stuff. I'd love it though, especially for the Lightning. Less shooting from hills, more shoot & scoot.

    €: Or maybe stabilise all turrets but make decoupling an option in the general settings.
  14. ican'taim

    Yes please. Shot a harasser with an AP lightning four, yes FOUR times, and it still wouldn't die. No repairing or anything. I died of course.
    • Up x 1
  15. TRspy007

    Yeah at the very least, raising it's cost to match or surpass that of a lighting would make more sense. For 400 nanites for example.

    The thing is, I can land 5 shots of my AP lightning on a harasser. The problem is by that time it's already able to kill me at least twice, and it's able to repair to take even more damage from me while doing so - a luxury that no other (ground) vehicle other than the flash has.

    Basically, when a harasser locks on to me when I'm in a vehicle, I know that vehicle is dead. There isn't anything I can do to defend my 350 nanite lighting from being shredded by something that's less than half the cost. All I can do is try to get a few shots on him and bail, so I can scare him away from killing me. I can't escape in my lighting either, unless I wanna risk flipping over the slightest pebble and end up killing myself anyways.

    Also for a "harasser", it works more like an "obliterator". Say what you will, I'll maintain that encounters with a good MBT crew vs a good harasser crew, that good harasser crew is going to get more kills, win more frequently and overall have way more survivability than the depressing excuses of MBTs.

    So yeah raising the cost so it's at least aligned a bit more with the potential of the vehicle would be a start. I still think they could cut the dps of each harasser gun in half/or give a health/rumble seat repair nerf, and the vehicle would still perform decently. And one brick of C4 should kill a harasser, it's already hard enough to C4 them, they shouldn't be able to survive that.
  16. McToast

    I'll quote myself here:
    You can start comparing the L100 AP with the close range weapons of a Harasser, but that would be apples to oranges. The most you could do in my opinion is complain that the Lightning doesn't have access to a decent close range weapon, although I didn't do the math comparing the C75 Viper to the Harasser weaponry. I would imagine the long reload would be an issue, but I didn't do the math. It has been a while since I auraxed the Viper and I'm not sure how it performs today.
    €: ES short range Lightning weapons. Thoughts?

    I believe I can count myself as one of the "good" Harasser/tank drivers. Definitly not one of the best, but well above average. In a direct confrontation I'd put my money on the MBT every single time. That's why I don't go for the direct confrontation with an MBT when in a Harasser. I choose targets that are already engaged, get behind them and... :) do what Harassers do. Against a Lightning it's a different story. If he hits his first shot and my gunner misses I'm bailing for repairs and wait for a new opportunity to engage. If he and my gunner hit I'm staying at a bit of distance and see what the second volley brings. If he misses and my gunner hits I'm going in, trying to get on his behind and slug it out. If the Lightning driver isn't a potatoe it's not a definite win, although I'd certainly say that the Harasser has an advantage, simply because it can dictate the engagement.
    But it's still a 1vs2.

    Like I said, if you nerf the damage output by a noticeably degree -like cutting it in half-, you won't see many Harassers on the field anymore. It would simply not be worth it anymore. If we're talking about token nerfs like 5% less dps by increasing reload times across the board, it would certainly be annoying for the Harasser, but in the end wouldn't change a lot in vehicle balance overall. I am of the belief that damage output and health are perfectly fine for a 2-man vehicle, it's just the cost that is way too low. Up to 300 or 350 and I'd be fine. Mabye, like some other players suggested, buff the Lightning and MBT drivers by giving them a stabilized turret and decoupling the turret from the tanks movement. That would definitly close the gap in effective agility a lot.
  17. brutes359

    Dude. This is like the fifth time this week I've seen a post about this. The devs have already made it clear they don't understand the basics of vehicle specialization and everyone whose dared open there mouths gets dog-piled by the debunkers that live on the site. you can waste you breath if you want but its been over 5 years now and Daybreak haven't done anything meaningful about it. Never-mind that a 150 MM rail cannon cant kill them in less than three shots. never-mind they can self repair while moving. Never-mind they can reliably 1v1 what is supposed to be a front line combat vehicle that costs three times as much. They dont care, and never will.
    • Up x 1
  18. brutes359

    Really? Because flashes cant do that reliably and i see plenty of them still running around.
  19. TRspy007

    Your math works except for the last part. The engineer can repair while his weapon reloads. Doesn't need to be 3 to repair the vehicle in combat.

    It's also far easier for the harasser to outrun the lightning, repair behind some cover and come back to finish the lightning off.

    And most people are bad, so they don't use the halberd but the weapons that shred tanks in 1 clip up close. In which case, the tank also has no chance of surviving.

    Fixing other vehicles instead of nerfing the harasser could work. The price increase is a must though. Make it cost more than a lightning, or decrease the lightnings cost in comparison to the harasser.
  20. McToast

    Honestly, I've never actually seen this in live play. I've seen the driver switching to rumbleseat/getting out and repairing while the gunner keeps up the dps. That makes the Harasser static though. I don't know if you've actually used the Harasser before, but when reloading you have to wait for a second or the reload will cancel, causing it to start all over once you switch back to the weapon. Switching usually takes a second or so too, so you don't really have time for repairs, and once you switched back you have to take aim again.

    Yupp, that's exactly what I do in a Harasser if my gunner f*cks up or the Lightning driver is really good. Two engineers repair faster than one, so the Lightning driver can't really win. If he gets caught in the open with no support whatsoever, he's usually toast eventually. It's a 2vs1.

    MBTs still out-dps a Harasser close up, and hitting at close range isn't all that hard for an MBT. And again, the dps of the topgunner is enough to win the fight, even if the driver is afk. There are some shenanigans with C4, but I wouldn't say that that's the norm. And comparing the long range main guns of MBTs/Lightnings to the short range AV weapons isn't fair; the latter lack the range and versatility of the former. That's like saying "it's not fair that I constantly loose with my battlerifle against shotguns in cqb!". But I'll admit there's some room for complaining here, when you can only choose battlerifles to begin with and engagements usually happen in close quarters. ES short range weapons for the Lightning could remedy this issue. But don't complain when you get sniped by Halberd Harassers then ;).

    Well, at least one thing we can agree on :). 150 -> 300/350 in my opinion.
    Btw, in case that wasn't clear, I also like my MBTs and Lightnings.

    The Flash is a small 1-man vehicle with a cloak. Last time I checked, the M40 Fury-F dealt the same damage as the M40 Fury-H (although the Fury is pretty much a piece of junk now to begin with...). And on Cobalt I really only see cloak-Flashes doing shenanigans with roadkills/Fury against vehicles, or Flashes that are used as a cheap solo transport to the next battle, getting discarded and never looked back at once arrived. Redeploying to the next battle or pulling an ESF is faster and more effective 98% of the time. The Flash can be fun, but it's not a competitive combat vehicle.