Good Pay to win game

I'm totally with you that appearances are what should cost money. They would make way more money selling accessories for guns, player customization, vehicles, etc. than they currently do by selling the actual weapons themselves. All things being equal (they aren't because battles are usually insanely big force vs small force) the people who spend money will win. SOE is missing out on a cash cow, and we are missing out on tactics winning battles rather than certs. Team Fortress 2 just uses customization and they make insane money. Would I spend $10 to totally customize my dude just the way I want? Yes. Done. Take my money. $7 for a single weapon, on a single character, on a single server? I'd rather piss on $7, put it in an envelope, and mail it to the devs. For all who say 'triple station cash!' - I'd rather piss on $2.33, put it in an envelope, and mail it to the devs.

Lets assume the phone line is the problem for one player and he lags more often, so we could say that he is in disadvantage because he does NOT have the same conditions of another player. Which means. in order to be FAIR, everyone need to fight in the same conditions.

If you agree with that, you will agree with this: everyone need to fight in the same conditions without using money to be free to play.
And if you agreed with that, than what we have here is definitely pay to win/advantage.

Many posts here claims this is pay for convenience instead of pay to win, which makes no sense at all, because what you are forgetting is, you pay and conveniently, buy a better weapon from start. It is simple as that. Because someone who pays have a better weapon from start, while the other one has to farm for 50 hours to buy the rocket pods for example. And i think 50 hours not owning like others just because you dont have one gun does ring a bell.

List of advantage of better weapon/item is very long because with certs you can buy:
Bigger magazines, weapons with more attachments( more damage) , more defense, mobility, rocket pods, dual max, guided missele AV/AI, and the list goes on and on.
Check and you will see that not all of the attachments can be installed in the starters weapons.
Some say there is only sidegrades, which is another lie. The main cannon for the airplanes is rubbish, and takes a long time to kill with that. The other ones are simple better. Also the rocket pods.

This game is very good, but there is no way you can say that who pays doesnt have an advantage.
If you still wanna discuss this, go to a new account, and go fight with the start airplane. Kill some tanks just for fun.
Go back to me here and say how did it go.

I believe Valve Dota 2's cash shop model is THE best. They ONLY and ONLY sell cosmetic items and the amount of cosmetic items in Valve cash shop is GIANT with THOUSANDS of different looking ones. NONE of the cash shop item would affect a SINGLE aspect of the game play, NOT even the difference between level in game (this is different from Player's pure Skill level), it's just purely skill based game. Hence why their game's (Dota 2) population is jumping enormously to a whole new level in just a few months. Right now, it has FIVE times amount of players compare to Counter strike or Borderland 2 (It's expected to hit 1 million active players everyday for next year) and itself has more than 3 million players who played the game AT LEAST once, AND the game is STILL in a F***ing Beta phase.

Not to advertise or anything but SOE needs to look at Valve and learn.

I agree that this game is not Pay2Win, but its model is totally NOT friendly toward non-paying players. For example, if I decide to spend 1000 certs on buying 1 weapon then I wouldn't have enough cert to upgrade my skills/stats compare to Paying-players, right? So it actually push players to pay for the weapon and save the certs to upgrade their stat and unlock weapon, am i rite?

And to remind people that, the non-paying players are actually the CORE of making this game MORE popular and able to compete with other games in the market EVEN IF these people don't pay (Everything has its own benefit). So yes, SOE needs to make the game a bit more friendly to non-paying players in order to put this game on the top out there.

And who is going to pay the SOE employees at the end of the month?

I agree that cert prices are too high or the hourly cert gain too low. However, most people won't pay any money if they do not get a small advantage over other players. There is no way you can design a sustainable F2P model without a small P2W factor. At the end of the day, free players just have to play a lot more but they do get access to all weapons. The only thing which is not quite fair in this game are the camos. Free players should be able to unlock camos as they really give players an advantage.

This has nothing to do with pay 2 win.

Which is my point.

Yes, you can pay to access weapons earlier. But you have no advantage over someone who unlocked the weapons with certs. Everything purchasable is also acquirable ingame.

And for the people who moan about the price, buy SC when on sale and/or buy weapons when they are sale. The less convenient (the longer you have to wait) the cheaper it is. Buying SC at normal price and the gun at normal price is the most convenient, but the most expensive. Buying it by certs is the least expensive, but the least convenient. And SC and/or weapon sale are inbetween.


The bottom line is the servers don't run on wishes and dreams. So yes, it's worth paying. It will allow you to become more powerful quickly, but not more powerful overall because everyone can catch up simply by continuing to play. There is no +12 rifle of smiting which is only available to paying customers which makes it a requirement to pay in order to compete. There's just people who have progressed further than you, who you can catch up to. How quickly you catch up is up to you.

Prices are fine. If you drop $60 on a triple SC day, or even use the Walmart cards for nearly 4x SC, you'll have more certs than you'll know what to do with for a very long time.

Sony made it very obvious. They want you to purchase the guns with real cash, and you use your certs to upgrade. However for those that refuse to spend a dime, they are at disadvantage because all of their certs go towards unlocking weapons as opposed to the upgrades. It's brilliant because it gives reason to actually spend money outside of enjoyment, and that is efficiency. Sony will make a lot of this, imo. Now if only they could fix performance for non i5/i7 users...

How do you know , let me know i want to know it all about that game !

Just look at what you say...
You actually say that it will be more powerful, but not more powerful, because of what?
Simple continuing playing for hundreds of hours? Because i am sure you realize that not paying players will take around 50 hours to reach 1000 certs, and i hope you are not forgetting that these guys are cannon fodder while they are not there and i'm not sure people like to be killed constantly by someone with a better suit.

You also say this, but you are wrong, so let me explain in more details.
Take HA for example.
Weapon:
The weapon for 250 certs has 2 attachments that simple makes the weapon better and these attachments are not in the inicial weapon. Ammo and rail.
Thats 450 certs, or around 20 hours just to get simple a better weapon. More damage and 3 x the size of the magazine.
Ability slot:
Not going untill the end which is 500 certs just for that. We can expend 331 (or 831) certs to have a better shield. There is no argument about that, the shield is better! The game says itself.
Suit slot:
Again we can avoid the last level and expend 211 certs to get more 20% HP. No arguments here either.

So what do we have here is, 450 from weapon + 331 for armor + 211 for hp and this is 1002 certs or around 50 hours just playing in inferior character when compared to someone who paid.
So how can you say this is not a pay to win game? How can you argument about this, since the game itself tells you that these certs makes you better!? And i didnt go to the higher level, if i would have, this ammount of certs would reach 2500, which is more than 100 hours just to play at the same level as someone that can pay.

And pay attention that this is JUST for HA. We can go like this for all the classes and ships.

And dont argue that the devs deserve the money, because we are not discussing this. We are discussing if the game favors who can pay in detriment of those who cannot.
After checking the certs, there is no doubt about that those who can pay start ahead and will be there for a looong time.

All you crybabies need to understand that real power in PS2 comes from Certs and not the weapons you buy.......Stock default guns have ROF that is more than capable of solely carrying your career......The guns you buy can also be gotten by Certs......In essence it is paying not to grind or better yet paying not to grind for guns. All you cheapskates can grind for guns.
Also know that default weapons are more than capable in the hands of decent players. I have seen the stats, (ROF/Spread/Recoil/1st shot multiplier/etc.) the gunplay & mechanics mimic BF3 and I love it!!! All guns have power!!! If your certs are short then that is all yer' fault.

You are complaining about people paying to get a gun earlier? The situation is the exact same in Spiral Knights, which is a pay to rush game. NO player in that community touts it as a pay to win game because it's not. It is PAY TO RUSH. This is the exact same model in the game we have here. You get to pay to rush through to the weapons you want. Sure, it might be a little of an advantage because you save certification points, but in reality, that's not that much of an advantage, given that people at a high battle rank see that cert gain as MOOT.

^ read that again.

It is not P2W but P2Rush as said before. If you don't pay, it will take you longer to unlock. I kill just fine without buying the other weapons. Heck stock weapons really are powerful enough.

Yeah let everyone who's smart enough to know the value of money abandon the game right now.

It's also been shown that the stock weapons provide a greater damage per second figure than the upgraded ones with hard data.

All weapons are side grades except for the annihilator rocket launcher, which is both anti-ground and anti-air.

Ok so your solution is to give less benifit to paying players so that the game can be more popular. Then what insentive is there for paying people to buy stuff? your logic fails... if profits don't come in the game gets canceled. it doesnt matter how many players you have. So what you will end up doing is getting ingame advertising, and stupid crap like that.

Do you purposefully not read people's posts?

I agree that it makes you more powerful quicker. I am not disputing that and anyone who knows the system shouldn't be disputing that.

But no matter how much or how little you spend, you will catch up.

Someone paid for every tank cannon, so what? When you fight him he still only has 1 equipped, and if it's not the right one for that type of battle then he's at a disadvantage despite you unlocking your weapon via certs.


However, you seem to think that a character being able to get more powerful by either ingame currency or cash is pay 2 win.

It is not, that's just your made up definition. Quoting my post and saying "see!!!!! it's pay 2 win!!!!" just showcases your ignorance of what a pay 2 win game actually is.


And FYI I tend to disregard anyone that claims that default weapons make you cannon fodder. Again, this shows nothing but ignorance as in many situations the default weapons are perfectly fine.


:edit:

Getting NW2 also shows a fair amount of ignorance...

The difference between base health & NW1 is being able to take 1 more bullet.

The difference between NW1 and NW5 is being able to take 1 more bullet, assuming it's one of the weakest ones available dealing just 100 or 112 damage.

NW2 is effectively no advantage over NW1, just wasted cert points.

The Annihilator cannot dumb-fire though. So the Annihilator requires you to stand in the open to lock.

Annihilator is also a sidegrade. You give up damage per missile as well.
Annihilator = 1150, AV/AA = 1500, Dumb Fire =1700, Decimator = 2000

Ah. Thanks for that. I now understand why I only use the Annihilator for anti-air (though it seems to be broken) and the Decimator for anti-ground.

Yeah hit detection for AA is broken, amongst other things that could be fixed. Half the time even if I hit it, it doesn't register as Red in the crosshair and I get no assist exp either or it won't register as a hit if the missile isn't rendered on screen but the aircraft is. Arghh.

I don't know the data off the top of my head but some people have mentioned the Annihilator has a faster AA rocket, I'm not certain though.

Some people are too funny I do agree that 7 bucks for gun seems a bit over the top, but 2.33 is much more reasonable and I consider it a fair price. I've bought some stuff on the first day, that I needed for utility (second burster arm, g2a rocket launcher, skyguard) Most other stufg I've bought later on sale days. Currently I own pretty much every weapon I want without spending more, then normal price of any other MMO. And infantry weapons are sidegrades. More options are pretty useless since you have really good gun by default. I haven't bought any infantry weapon with SC - I see no point in it.
I do support the idea of increasing cert gain rate to provide better expirience for new players, but prices are mostly fine.