[Suggestion] Give Vanguard Shield a Downside

I'm not calling for anything. I'm in this thread because I'm interested in the vehicle aspect of the game, and I responded to the specific challenge of looking at the VKPH comparison of the three tanks to see if there was a way to get a deeper look at what's happening. I'm not drawing any conclusions on whether or not the state of affairs I described is a good or bad thing. The data should be considered along with anecdotal information from experienced Vanguard drivers, which I assuredly am not.

I expect that my Magrider avatar is seen as evidence of bias. I love the tank, but that's because of fond memories of hovertanks from the 1998 and 1999 Battlezone games, along with having commanded one a bit in PS1. I honestly want a balance situation where the three MBTs can have interesting, tactical fights, where the winner is the one who is best able to emphasise their strengths and hide their weaknesses. I certainly don't want to command a god-chariot. No challenge in that.

I think the differences in performance of the MBTs against various vehicle types comes from how their properties emphasise different things (summary below simplistic, but hopefully illustrates my point well enough to not become a central arguing point itself):

Code:

                Skirmishing        Front line
Magrider            ++                --
Prowler             -                 +
Vanguard            --                ++

In the case of the Vanguard, it'd be interesting to go into more depth as to why it is getting fewer kills on lighter vehicles -- even Flashes, where I would have thought that the Titan-AP is a one hit kill. Is it because they avoid Vanguards? Is it because they run away after being hit with the main gun, and the tank cannot stay engaged? Is the longer reload cycle providing enough of a window for other AV to kill the wounded vehicle? Without the data to give suggestions why (it might be useful to slice out metrics on assists, number of shots on target, damage dealt, all to various targets), and without anecdotes from the experience of various NC tankers in this matter, I can't say. It may even be just fine against those targets, but just doesn't see them as much as a Magrider -- but how could that even be measured?

Assuming it can be demonstrated and SoE can be persuaded that the current state of affairs is bad, any changes to the Vanguard to improve its VKPH performance against lighter vehicles will need to be very carefully done to make sure that it doesn't tip its modest advantage against MBTs to being overwhelming. How that can be achieved without sacrificing its flavour, I don't know.

No no, that's faulty use of the Vanguard. Granted, some people willingly go into those situations knowing the shield adjusts the odds more towards the VG, but ultimately the act of pressing the shield button won't ever kill you.

That's the burner being used right. Although it's still contingent on the enemy not being top notch, and/or some rather harsh terrain requirements have to be in place.
However, use it at the wrong time, and the magrider can (surprisingly easily) get flipped over. This is without even considering if it's a fight or not, just using the ability at the wrong time. There's no such situation for the Vanguard Shield.

Trust me, The day they fix the 64Bit recording on the client is the day I will show you what a vanguard really does. If you want to get technical, None of what you have shown is official proof. That website is not run by SOE and for all we know, The data very well could be tampered with by biased hands in attempt to control what gets nerfed and what does not. So unless you start linking sites with data that SOE owns, Your proof is just as lacking as mine right now (As I don't care to scout the youtube to find what needs to be found).


If you were to put two equally skilled pilots in any tank versus the vanguard, Even on 2v2 situations. The Vanguard will always win because it has the ability to damage lock you for 6 seconds. Those 6 seconds giving it enough time to manage two free shots onto your tank. So yeah, If we want to go by your logic, You have yet to show real proof either. You keep linking a website that is run by someone not employed by SOE, and as far as I am concerned, Could very well be biased with edited numbers.

Why can I say this so easily? Well, If we were to go by this websites numbers, The vanguard would have never been given the first shield nerf. If those numbers were truly correct, Its such a horrible under performing tank that SOE wouldn't have dared to nerf it. Seeing that they did, That must mean that somewhere along the lines those numbers are not what they seem.

And i tought stew360 was stubborn. Compared to you he is a cottonball .
You are done here, foxirus. Everybody showed you the hard data and provided solid arguments against you. And all you do is cherrypick comments and dismiss everything as "untrue" or "fake". You are just shouting your opinion while holding your hands against your ears and shouting "LALALALALA" like a spoiled kid...

And the vanguard just turns its barrel and shoots the magrider?

Your example has very little merit.

Of course the Vanguard turns his barrel, that was a given. An AP Magrider is going to blast through the side armor of a Vanguard long before the Vanguard blasts through the front armor of the Magrider. Not to mention the Vanguard is going to be spinning it's body while counter spinning its turret while the magrider is moving to stay on the side of the vanguard - it's not like it's a given that every shot is going to land.

So then tell me, If that information is true, Why the hell did they nerf the shield in the first place? If the vanguard is as bad as that data suggests, Did the devs just decide "Welp, Time to screw the NC, Lets nerf their shield even though this "Hard Evidence" shows that it is severely lacking in every department."

Everybody? I don't think one person who linked that website counts as everybody. As for being done, No, We are just getting started and I will argue my opinion just as much as you will argue your opinion that the tank is under performing. If you can find a website that offers that SAME data that is related to SOE and managed by them, I will take it as evidence and stop. If you cannot, As far as I am concerned that website is crap that we really can't be sure is authentic and non biased.

Ill say it again, Why can I say this? Because if something wasn't messed up on that website and it WAS true, That would mean the developers nerfed the Vanguard for no reason. I mean, That data clearly says the Vanguard is under performing and the worst tank of them all, So I want to know why did they nerf it if that "Hard data" is true. Can you explain that bigshot? If not, I believe YOU are done here, Not me.

I think your comment sorta applies to everyone, because noone is showing OFFICIAL proof regarding numbers.

You left out a step, allow me to edit it for you. Red will be my edits to your comment.

Right... we're reaching tinfoil hat conspiracy levels of ridiculousness here.

Why do the Devs nerf anything? Because people complain about it. As has been shown repeatedly, the voice if ill-informed people like yourself outweigh the voices of people who actually have evidence.

And if you're concerned about the "truthfulness" of the data, just know that all that data is taken from SOE's official API. You too can access the API here. SOE loves people who make websites like the Oracle of Death or the DA Stats site using their official data, so they made this data widely available to anyone. If you want to check out the official SOE database yourself, they explain it pretty well how to run queries. Just have to use a little programming language.

So if you really want to stop this problem, delete your forums account and go away. Then without people like you who insist on making arguments in the face of a wall of hard evidence and proof, maybe PS2 will finally be balanced.

Where do I sign?
That iWin shield is the most annoying thing in the game. I can live with PPA, but this...

Oooh so you are trying to say that SOE hands out nerfs in an uninformed unprofessional manner then? Impossible. SOE is best gaming company. SOE Devs are best devs!

In all seriousness, I personally don't want the Vanguard shield nerfed. I want it changed to become a RESIST shield, This would get rid of the illusion that the shield provides complete immunity and makes you invincible. In return, This would cause new players to be a little more cautious before rushing in to kill something. I have seen it happen and I fight plenty of Vanguards to know. Your inexperienced players think the shield will stop all damage and rush in, ignoring traps and other potential sources of damage. If you think I am lying, Feel free to look at my post history and you will see every time I called for a change to the shield, It was to make it a Resist Type Shield. Sadly, The NC cannot see the benefit they would gather from this and try to shoot the idea down anyways. They cannot see that this would actually let the Vanguard tank even more than what it already does.

The Vanguard is not under performing because its a bad tank. Its under performing because the inexperienced players put too much faith into the shield system it has.

How far below the other two tanks will the Vanguard have to score before TR and VS consider it "balanced"? 30%? 50%? 90%?

NC already pulls what, 1.3 or so Lightnings per Vanguard? If you nerf the Vanguard anymore the Lightning will become NC's empire-specific tank.

The fact of the matter is if the Vanguard was really OP, we'd be farming it up just like every other OP thing that has been in the game and that would be reflected in a high pull rate and sky-high scores. Neither of these are present. We pull a good deal more Lightnings than Vanguards, and our Lightning weapons perform just as good or better than our Vanguard weapons.

NC Lightnings also have a higher KPU on every weapon (except the Skyguard, VS baaaarely edge out that one with 3.33 to our 3.30 KPU) than other factions' Lightnings. NC Lightning OP? I think that rather easily debunks any claim that NC are just universally bad tankers. If we were, our Lightnings would suck too.

Actually, you can check the sources of the data. And the entire site is a bit too complicated with too many factors to be a site just to mislead players.
My proof isn't lacking. I'll tell you about the scientific method:
A researcher (A) searches for a subject, then goes and does research to said subject. This could be in the form of a literature study to collect data about it, and then draw conclusions.
The researcher (A) posts his findings for the world to see. Then researchers (B) will try to replicate that data, or in case of a literature study they will check the sources and the method of drawing conclusions. If they cannot find a problem with these, the data is accepted.
What you just did is say "I disagree, the source isn't owned by the company, so we cannot trust it". Even though the source uses direct data from the game and the SOE site.

Here's the Oracle of Death FAQ: http://ps2oraclestats.com/faq/
The second heading shows how they get accurate data: they request the PS2 API server for direct statistics (similar to when you ask a players stats on the main site). They also have a link showing the source code, in case you want to check the way they calculate things is correct. But with a little math you can see how the data from the MBT primary weapons for instance are made, and they add up.

Back to you: you haven't proven a single thing yet, but you have held over a dozen points of view. So how can we trust you? You in fact haven't even brought proof that sources brought by others are correct!

You can do a maximum of 2 shots in that time. Assuming you and your target are in an open field without cover and have 100% accuracy.
When you look at my stats, I'm (apparently) one of the better Vanguard players around. My outfit is currently within the best 20 outfits of all servers (number 6 I believe I heard last? Oh so Pretty). We do a lot of Vanguard combat, and we know how to use them. So there's no need for you to "show how good they can get". I know perfectly how good it can get. I also know that the Vanguard is underperforming from my experiences, and from the data I've already shown you.
Saying "I could show you how to do it if they fixed the video performance" isn't proof. In fact, video "evidence" is for this game completely irrelevant unless you use multiple sources. You could easily manipulate the video sources to only show your victories and not your defeats. That data could much easier be tampered with.

And again, those numbers can hardly be tampered with on the Oracle site. Show me proof that the thing is wrong anywhere. I know you are too lazy and will just say something on the lines of "I don't need to look at it to prove it", but at least the rest of the world knows you don't provide any proof or sources and keep screaming for proof from others, while you then just say "I don't trust your proof" and think you can get away with it.

SOE has made mistakes before. Just go back to the game's launch. Breaker rockets etc were OP as hell. They had HE explosions (the old one's!), they had tons of damage and had very little in the way of damage reduction. They could dominate everything, kill Skyguards and AA turrets faster than they could kill them, they could kill more than 6 people with just 4 or 5 rockets, if not less. SOE said they didn't intend to change this and that the rocket pods were working correctly...
Now let's look at the Liberator buff! The Liberator wasn't doing badly, it was already a pretty godly vehicle back then. Out of nowhere they buffed it, made it much stronger and resilient, making the Liberator the number one vehicle of the game.
Now let's look at how long the ZOE and PPA were overpowered. Or let's have a look at the Heavy shield, which isn't exactly overpowered but they are still intending to nerf it because a group of players complains about it. Oh, and look at their Valkyrie, which is useful but not enough to be used as frequently as anyone would want.

^ That's proof that SOE doesn't always know what's best. Besides, the Vanguard shield is incredible, but the Vanguard's base stats simply aren't good.

Won't be against giving a downside.
If it does happen though, the Magburner needs to have a downside added as well.
Currently the Prowler is the only MBT where the ability has a direct tradeoff.

I wish this were true Gralneth. Ofcourse each tank should have it's own unique properties, otherwise we should all just get the same tank and be done with ES vehicles. I think (and I think I have proven that as well) that the Vanguard isn't performing as it should, even though it is the premier MBT killer (in Q4).

I don't think it will be a problem if the Vanguard is overbuffed for a short period of time. We have been underperforming long enough. But as you say it would be better if the buffs happen gradually until the Vanguard is performing as well as the others overall. Then you buff it a little bit more and nerf the shield. Then see if it needs another buff or another nerf to the shield to stay balanced.

Most likely all of the above to some degree.

Magburner literally has no downsides (other than it does run out and need to recharge eventually).

The Van shield currently does have several downside (other than being on the worst MBT stock chassis), it just doesn't have active downside, rather it has passive (but still unavoidable) downsides (long CD and once used it stays used until you've gone through the whole shield & CD cycle).

Personally I couldn't see how Anchor could be balanceable without its current active downsides, given that it basically directly buffs the highest DPS MBT.

Umm have to disagree with that one - the Magburner is not exactly controllable and as the Magrider has a nasty tendency to flip, that is occasionally the end result (I recall suicide being very high in the rankings of 'things that killed a Magrider),

Compared to that, the only reason why the shield would get a Vanguard killed is the feeling of 'come and get me' that it gives to the driver.

HOWEVER - I actually think the MBTs are reasonably balanced right now, in so far as asymmetrical balance can go anyway. The situation dictates the outcome more often than not - and that seems fair.

Let me get serious with you for a moment, I will see how you view my actual reasons for changing the shield. My bet is that you will be a typical NC and try to ignorantly shoot them down without really considering it. I fight your Vanguards enough to know how your pilots are dying and why your tank is doing so poorly, Probably even better than some of you who are inside the damn thing.


The shield is actually the reason your tank is doing so poorly. Your pilots are using the shield as a buffer for carelessness. If I could record, I would show you the evidence of why the Vanguard is doing poorly in the numbers. I would show you Vanguard after Vanguard getting destroyed because the pilot put too much faith in the shield system. This is especially true for new inexperienced pilots. Majority of the Vanguard kills I see and do happen because the pilot rushed into an area without being cautious or making sure it was not a trap.

If you check my thread history regarding the Vanguard, I have always called for a change to the shield. A change that would turn the shield into a a RESIST SHIELD, Not a Nanite Mesh Shield. This change would make your pilots more cautious and less suicidal because the Resist Shield System would not give them the false thought of invincibility. When ever I try to argue my point to people, Most NC immediately shoot the idea down and don't even consider its merits. All they can see is that their tank is taking damage while the shield system is active. They cannot see that it would give them a full 6 seconds of 45-55% damage reduction (whichever the developers felt comfortable doing).

In reality, If your tank had a Resist shield, It would cause it to be able to tank more damage than your current shield would and at the same time teach your pilots to be cautious tank driver, To look before you leap. The only time this would not be the case is in a one versus one situation, Then it would make the tank a little more fair.

Whether you understand it or not, There is only so much further your shield can go down before my idea would have become the best route for you. Your current shield promotes bad tactics and poor decisions of the pilots who use it, especially with the inexperienced ones. Even if they buffed the shield to its old levels, The Vanguards stats would not change because it is not making your pilots any more intelligent.

Correct me if i am wrong , but those stats are only come from BR75 + so the whole "This is especially true for new inexperienced pilots." would be largely not relevant ( excluding the very slim chance a br 75+ never used a vangaurd before )