[Suggestion] Give Vanguard Shield a Downside

Would definitely prefer to add a new ability instead of doing this. Anchor is pretty amazing in its current state and well worth the disadvantage (if anything it's just completely brokenly overpowered for distance tank fights, and when maxed out is even worth using in many close-ranged fights.)

I wouldn't mind each faction getting a second ability which changes things up:

• Since TR's current ability is optimized for long-range and DPS output, their second ability would be focused on short-range and be something other than DPS (survivability or mobility)
• Similar for VS (whose current ability is focused on mobility) and NC (survivability)

So specific suggestions would be things like:

• TR get the TR-S4 Broadside. An activated medium-duration buff which reduces damage taken from side (flank) attacks, while improving turn rate, and slightly improving acceleration. (The resist increase causes flank armor to protect against damage even better than front armor.)
• NC get FRDM Shells. When ready (shortish 10 sec cooldown), activation causes a reload that's 100% longer than normal but the shell does 75% more damage. A HUD indicator lets you know a FRDM Shell is currently loaded. (basically used for high alpha strikes to lead off your attack, but has worse sustained DPS. The damage should be tweaked that it typically requires one fewer shot to kill something by using the shell.)
• VS get the Plasma Capacitor, which removes the need to reload. Instead, energy is constantly feeding into the capacitor, reaching a max charge (110% damage shot) after 5 seconds, but allowing you to rapid-fire lower damage shots at partial charge (damage scales based on how much of a charge you have built up.) Ammo is used basically as normal (for every 100% charge gained, 1 ammo is consumed; so firing two 50% shots takes one ammo.)

I love how people latch onto the magrider is the 'slowest tank' neglecting the fact the world isn't flat anywhere aside from the ice river on esamir.

Ever drive a magrider up to redridge? 45+ kph
How about a vanguard? its going to be stuck doing 15 most of the way. Any remotely challenging terrain also requires going up in reverse just to get the torque to do it. Even prowlers can easily run over a lot of hills that vanguards have a lot of trouble with.

This doesn't even cover the situations where a magrider can either magburn over an impassible obstacle, or where on a steep enough hill you can just turn the tank sideways, magburn sideways, and turn the tank uphill and use the momentum to get you even higher, and repeat until you are the top, allowing you to do things get above the bastion and murder all the vehicles on the other side of the wall etc, and nuke all aircraft taking off the airpad.

I went into the VR to double check the tank speeds:
Stock Rival Racer
MAGRIDER 50/35/20 52/43/26 65/38/21
VANGUARD 55/22 55/29 65/25
PROWLER 60/25 60/32 71/28

I run rival on a vanguard, its essential to keep the armor facing the incoming fire or quickly get spun around to deal with harrassers and stealth vehicles trying to flank you. A magrider can just run racer, and they should since rival is marginal for a magrider in comparison.

Looking at the vehicle kills per hour of MBT AP primaries and AP secondaries (ES for NC/VS, Halberd for TR) in the weapon stat tracker, it does look like the Vanguard is underperforming.

Switching to Monthly Vehicle deaths / MBT deaths, across all BR + all faction, the Titan-150 AP suddenly performs much better, scoring 4.40% compared to 4.81% for the P2-120AP and 4.18% for Supernova FPC. Refining it to Q4 BR + all faction, Titan-150 AP is the top-dog at 5.15% of these MBT deaths, compared to 5.03% fpr P2-120 AP and 4.42% for the Supernova FPC.

So, we've got two metrics that tell different stories. My hypothesis based on these numbers is the following:

• Against MBTs, Vanguard appears to perform very well. Probably the most effective at MBT vs MBT in experienced hands.
• Against all other vehicles, Vanguard does not perform as well as the other MBTs.

And in fact if you look at Flash, Harasser, Sunderer, and Lightning deaths, especially amongst Q4 BR, you'll see that the Titan-150 AP scores substantially lower than the P2-120 AP and the Supernova FPC. The Prowler's DPS and the Magrider's ability to chase down the lighter vehicles both substantially outweigh the Vanguard's damage per shot advantage.

Analysis predicated on the Oracle's reliability as a source of information, of course.

this thread REALLY made it to 12 pages?

Extra damage passes through the shield because 1 brick of C4 will damage the vanguard, and 2 will bring it to flaming.

The Vanguard's shield can feel kind of cheap at close range, but it's not OP or anything. It's fine the way it is.

A few things here, Wasn't talking about rocket launcher dumb fires, I am talking about tank cannons when I say dodge. I figured I would not have to be so specific when I gave the range, but maybe I gave people too much credit for their intelligence level.

As for you not being happy with it. If you were happy with it, You wouldn't be here dogging the tank itself saying how "Its the worst tank".

Are you talking about Alpha Strike Damage, which is a completely different term? How is that relevant?

DPS always means Damage Per Second. You can't suddenly change a widely accepted acronym.

So yeah, you didn't read my posts did you?

I started my discussion with "the shield is currently necessary, despite a great shield Vanguards are underperforming". Then I went on to say "the shield can only be nerfed/changed if the base chassis of the Vanguard is upgraded".

At least you agree with me on that now. It would have been much easier if you had read my first post, checked my data and then come with the conclusion you have above.

Another note: stop quoting people and alter it to make it insulting or degrading. The reason I use LAAAAAARGEPOST is because I explain my arguments and facts to people, including you. My posts became longer because I had to explain every step of the way.

Now I missed this info, thanks!
I don't think the two metrics tell different stories, they flesh out and give more detail to the story.

As you say, the Vanguard is better at direct combat with other MBT's in the Q4 area, but it's a narrow thing with the Prowler. The VS are pretty far behind, which could be explained by the usage of PPA rather than AV weapons on top, as well as the lower DPS.
Overall, when not looking at just 25% but the whole 100% range, the Vanguard is still good, but instead of a difference of 0,12 with the Prowler it's now a difference of 0,41 in favor of the Prowler.

So if we put the data together we get this:
In MBT vs MBT, the Vanguard is good overall, in the Q4 it's the best, closely followed by the Prowler. The VS are lacking in MBT vs MBT, the reasons are currently too muddled to make a proper statement about it.
When looking at the Avg V KPU the Magrider is king, closely followed by the Prowler and significantly farther below the Vanguard. This shows that the Magrider kills a great deal more small vehicles, Flashes, Lightnings, (parked)Sunderers, Harassers etc. All the while the Vanguard can barely kill those vehicles. This makes the Prowler the best overall vehicle killer, as it's great against MBT's (best overall, close to the best in Q4) while still only digits behind on the Magrider in overall vehicle kills.

But here's the kicker. Vanguard has the Vanguard shield, which will be used almost always at least once during it's lifetime of being bought. Afterburner isn't used in combat, and Anchor is rarely used in combat but rather to ambush, and that doesn't happen a lot either. So the Vanguard has a shield that's much more useful as it's much more used and pretty powerful when used. And still the Vanguard is only just the best MBT killer, and only in Q4? Even though it can barely kill small vehicles compared to the other two? Imagine if all factions had their abilities removed... how good would the Vanguard be then? How good the Prowler? How good the Magrider? I would think the Vanguard would become a ****** vehicle, because it's base chassis is simply ****.
So here's my recomendation: Increase the base chassis of the Vanguard, and decrease the shields abilities. The Vanguard shield should be less requirement and more utility.

That's Shockwave you are talking to, Klypto. If a dude can claim that reload speed doesn't matter for tank guns, he can everything.

I read your posts just fine. I still do NOT agree with you about anything. The vanguard is under performing yes, But it needs to be fixed in the way its underperforming. The weapon damage is where the issue is, Not the vanguards body traits.

Oh my! The vanguard is second with it's awesome ability of the shield in kills! You know what that means? The prowler should be nerfed! NERFED I TELL YA! The trouble is with that double barrelled gun of his. He has too much DPS! It also has no downside! Lets remove one barrel, so it shoots only one shot at a time! That should fix all the problems!
You are looking at one ability and the respective counterpart only. Then you suddenly grab a single situation where the Vanguard would outperform other MBT, namely a straight up slugfest. They only win that with their shield. There are many advantages to all the ES MBT abilities, and I suggest you use them. Create the right situations where you win, and not try to best someone in their area of expertise. That way you create the balance, not in making everyone equal in this one situation.

I like the vanguard shield, but its like the heavy assault, its meant to be the "OH **** SOMEONE IS BEHIND ME AND ABOUT TO PUT A SHELL OR C4 INTO MY TAIL PIPE"

you activate it, and you save your life, or if a liberator or other aircraft is preparing to bombard you, just flip it on to save you for that moment.

Its a real nifty thing honestly, and I really have no problem with it, my biggest concern is why they have a firework launcher as their anti vehicle faction weapon.

It wasn't a "wall of text", besides, you asked for proof. I gave you proof in a short post in the beginning. You didn't understand my proof, this required me to make a long post of it.
And my last post wasn't a wall of text, it were two posts rolled into one. My reply to you was short, very short. You didn't need to read the stuff below. If you had actually read my post, you would have noticed that.

Here's a question: I provided proof for my arguments, but you haven't yet. Show us your proof!
Second question: why is the weapon damage underperforming? The Vanguard has a higher DPS than the Magrider, so the Magrider is underperforming as well? That doesn't make sense, as my proof shows the Magrider isn't underperforming.
So provide proof for your statement.
Your statement is: "the weapon damage of the Vanguard is the issue, not the Vanguard body traits". Can you make these claims substantial? I can already deny them, so do you have proof for this?

Yeah the Mag most definately isn't the slowest tank across any sort of terrain (and by any I mean exactly what you're saying outside of a perfectly flat featureless environment, which is basically the ice rivers on Esamir and no where else - even the desert bits in Indar have enough terrain features to offset any speed).

And the Mag absolutely isn't remotely the least mobile tank (the Van is by a country mile), and as you say to mitigate that at all you're not able to using Racer so probably top speed isn't what it could be anyway.

The problem is that stock Van needs to be seriously buffed before anything could be done to the shield (I actually quite like the idea of shield as a sort of reverse Anchor where it gets a new Sunderer type shield, but either has to "Anchor" to use it or maybe can only move at a very, very slow speed [talking 10-15 whateversperhour)].

But to do that they'd need to do something like give the Van Prowler speed and mobility (but not DPS, but rather keep its minor chassis toughness bonus) or as you say leave it as it is, but boost its DPS a quite a bit (probably at or near Prowler main gun DPS).

Ooook.

I see this is again a point of contention.

Drawbacks - Restrictions.
They are both negative, but to treat any negative aspect of any and all abilities as "the same" is limiting yourself in ways you shouldn't.
Here, a useful distinction of negative traits.

• Drawback: An explicit negative trait that is only active when the ability is.

1. Example: Infil cloak weapon lock, Anchor loss of movement, ZOE reduction in durability etc.

• Restriction: Limits in place to restrict uptime/duration and re-use.

1. Example: Ability energy/fuel (jet packs, magburner, HA shield etc), ability duration/cap (like the 6 second shield, 5 second health restore for FS, or lock on immunity from smoke/flares), and in some cases direction (true for all vehicle speed boosts + MAX charge).

In that context the Shield has no drawbacks. Then again, the same is true for Magburn, Fire Suppression, Flares, Medic AOE Heal and so on and so forth.

Abilities with drawbacks would be things like TR Anchor, ZOE, Aegis Shield, HA shield, Infil cloak etc.
With this definition (you're welcome to come up with your own if you don't like it), VG shield has no inherent drawbacks, in that activating the shield is always a positive. You can make the argument that using it at the wrong place wastes it, but there's nothing intrinsically negative with using it whenever. Same for Magburn, although it's combat impact is much weaker and far from as reliable as the shield. However, neither one really has a drawback attached to them, just restrictions.

TR anchor has a drawback, in that it removes your ability to move. It also has restrictions in that you have to stop before you can anchor, and there's the time spent before the bonus enables itself.
Ps: The lack of a timer on things like the shield (and FS, flares, smoke etc) is a game wide problem. While a valid complaint, it's more a QOL thing than a balancing point.

Edit: Some formatting.

Give NC a downside to anything?

Don't be ridiculous~!

You know, I completely agree with everything you're saying. The only thing I would point out is that the Magburn reliability is just like the Vanguard shield - if you use it wrong, it'll do you no good. VS who say "you have to point your tail at the enemy to use it" are absolutely wrong. I RARELY see VS drivers make that mistake.

What I don't get is how some VS jump directly to "Nerf the NC!" instead of "Buff the TR!". Personally, I'm fine with the balance between the Vanguard and the Magrider. The ONLY thing that needs to be fixed is that the TR need to be given the same level of usefulness in their ability. Frankly, for what the TR have to give up, their gains should be ridiculously OP.

What I would MUCH rather see is the TR Lock-Down converted to "Loader Over-Drive". It would give them a higher level of reload speed, it would NOT change their projectile speeds. It would NOT require them to stop. Basically, the turret would glow red (like an HA overshield) and they would gain that rapid fire bonus. The Over-Drive would be active for 8 seconds and then have a 45 second cool-down.

That's far more fair than trying to nerf the Vanguard shield to the same level of un-usability as the TR lock-down.

Uh no, they're not the same in that regard.
Use the shield at the wrong time, nothing happens. Use it at the right time and it is one of the best boons in game to win a fight.

Use the Magburn at the right time, and it -may- give some positional assistance, although the better the opponent the less likely this will be. Use it at the wrong time... and the magrider dies from having flipped over.

Actually, use the Vanguard shield wrong and you're going to die. With the slow acceleration of the Vanguard, there is no escape once you've committed to the close range attack. Against a Magrider, they'll out maneuver you, get on your side, keep their nose pointed at you and kill you.

Use the Magburner right and you get away and be able to repair and come back for another engagement. It'll save you from a mistake you made. I see that all of the time. Use it wrong and you won't get away and you'll die.