Game Balance And Problems

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by strove, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. strove

    Let me begin by saying that this will be a long forum post, but i hope it raises some valid points. Let me also say that i am in no way intending to sound like i'm whining i'm simply doing my research and pointing out the outcomes.

    Lets start with a little background, PS2 is an excellent game with so many factors to consider that i don't blame any one for any negative things i am about to highlight, in fact i would like to congratulate the devs on getting as close as we are to a perfect free to play game. As to my background, i am an NC player, but for the purpose of this post i have characters made on the TR and VS sides too, i have dug up weapon stat spreadsheets and checked their accuracy, any info i post here is as accurate as it possibly can be so don't argue with the facts.

    The main thing is Empire balance...
    Lets look into the weapon types of all three empires:
    TR : Higher rate of fire and larger mags
    VS : average stats with less recoil and fast reloads
    NC : higher damage per shot but slower rate of fire

    Now to keep the three empires in equilibrium they must all come out with average Damage Per Second (DPS) due to the vast majority of time you have 1 second to kill or be killed, obviously there are more factors than just this, teamwork, player quality, weapon and load out selection but the principle is still there clear.

    For the three factions to work equally they must all output medium power weapons
    VS : Medium damage x medium ROF = Medium guns
    TR : Lower damage x High ROF = Medium guns
    NC : Higher damage x Lower ROF = Medium guns
    = Cross empire balance

    The trouble is this isn't true... a lot of weapons across the three are identical... for instance the Longshot/Rams.50/Parallax are identical... now while this doesn't change balance at all and isn't the focus of this post and doesn't even need to be changed it does remove the empire differences that make this game what it is.

    The Main problem is the weapons that arn't identical...
    Lets look into the default LMGs for all factions

    NC : NC6 Gauss saw Max damage 200 ROF 500 DPS 1666.6r
    TR : T9 Carv Max damage 143 ROF 750 DPS 1787.5
    VS : Orion Max damage 143 ROF 750 DPS 1787.5

    So here we see just a simple example of the situation, obviously weapon attachments make a difference and the Gauss saw has more attachments available but that also means we need to pour more certs into it.
    So the NC Gauss saw has the lowest damage output, however due to it having more damage per shot it also have a huge amount of recoil and spread resulting in doing less damage per second and making less successful hits... the problem with the other two weapons here is that they have lost their empire weapon statistic, the Carv doesn't have a higher ROF as the TR suggests it should.

    This is just one example the the same situation follows in almost every circumstance, resulting in the smaller imbalances stacked against the NC causing quite a large imbalance when you scale it to the multi-platoon fights we commonly see.

    Lets also look into some more specific weapons, Lets start with empire specific rocket launchers (ESRL)
    NC : Phoenix, 750 damage guided Rounds per min : 12
    TR : Striker, 500 damage lock on, 5 rounds clip Rounds per min : 92
    VS : lancer, 150-750, Insta-hit, 6 rounds a clip Rounds per min : 200
    Standard Dumb fire RL : 1700 Rounds per min : 12

    Lets look at damage per min, the Lancer with its 200 RPM stands out first but you must remember that this is the first charge level and isnt worth pointing out, i feel as if the lancer is balanced, you can launch 2 rounds totaling 1500 which are almost impossible to dodge and are VERY efficient at long range. Next is the Striker
    totaling 2500 damage with a range of 500m it is the highest damage with 500 more than the decimator but locks onto everything, Two clips takes out most vehicles with several reloads spare. then there's the phoenix... where the DPS drops the longer you guide it, as well as the fact that the phoenix is hard to control will most likely get you killed due to being unable to defend your self standing there for 10 seconds... and when it finally hits you do half the damage of a dumb fire you started with. Not to mention you can shoot the rocket out of the sky you are much better off with a lock on which has 200m more effective range and is unlikely to miss.

    The lancer is the one to work off, if it were tweaked to reduce accuracy beyond the render distance to stop the ghost rocket effect and the rocket trails were visible there is nothing too bad about it, next we reduce the Striker clip to 3... totaling 1500 lock on which is the same damage as a clip of the Lancer, then just remove the Phoenix all together, its really not worth bothering with, if its going to stay bring its damage up to at least 1700 (standard dumb fire) to compensate for the huge time guiding the thing and make the guiding control agility match the lock on style agility...

    Another thing a lot of people are talking about for the last month is Maxs... The Zoe specifically... now i have seen the patch noted for GU11 which is increasing the damage reduction from 25% to 30%... lets put this in real terms. in the average encounter with a ZOE max you would need another 5-7 seconds of continued fire AFTER you died to kill it but this applys for most maxes as it should do... trouble is they still dominate everything, the speed makes them harder to hit, their damage makes it harder to live... its an impossible combo, either one of these traits on their own with minor buffs would be efficient enough to make it worth doing, the other thing that was in the test server was allowing overdrive for 8-12 seconds at a time which would, i feel, be a good way to balance it without the new armor reduction.

    the other thing about maxs that isn't entirely balanced is effective range... both TR and VS have an effective range of around 50m with some usability beyond that, the NC has a maximum distance of 10m, many people will try to convince a keen NC max user to use the slugs, which, if any one has tried it beyond VR, really isn't an option. i feel as it the jackhammer is a possible way to solve this, stick a jackhammer on each arm, this allows for medium range combat to be possible... and since the jackhammer already exists its not going to be too over powered, tweaks will need to be made but that's the base weapon a solution could revolve around.
    My concern however lies with the NS flame thrower to come out in up coming updates... if all empires now get a close quarters max weapon where does the current NC max lie... other than in a ditch. If the flamethrower is any where as good as people are hoping it to be it will remove the only advantage the NC max ever had... Tread carefully Devs.
    Max abilities is yet another popular topic... the shield is all well and good but when both opposing factions get very notable damage increases why does the NC (the hard hitting faction) get a shield...which also removes any form of offensive action, at the very least give the NC the ability to shield bash, dealing melee damage and a 'THIS IS SPARTA' grin while we do it. there are many other suggestions in the forums so im not going to make this another one of those threads so lets move on...

    Lets look at Main Battle Tanks. For a quick example lets look at Armor Piercing rounds
    NC : does 1500 on direct hit
    TR : does 750 on direct hit and has double barrels
    In this example bare in mind that NC gets a huge reload timer to balance the high damage... in total the TR has the highest DPS yet again, i'm not going to go through the exact maths again as it follows the same format as before

    The one thing i really don't understand is why does one AP round direct hit, not kill a max... now bare in mind that a max is a lightly armored infantry unit. now bare in mind any tank shell to your average infantry would scatter body parts over 100m behind the target on a direct hit... now bare in mind that the AP rounds are designed to tear through tank armor and tell me why a direct AP shell to a max doesn't kill it outright no matter what suit slots its got... the max in question will then go on to empty a clip of the new Rockets into you while you reload... some one make a realistic simulation of the armor required to stop a tank round that's purpose is to destroy armor...

    Anyhow... coming close to the end of the post and i would like to list some of the over and under powered weapons in the game that i haven't yet touched on...

    VS : Lasher : Under powered (possibly not after GU11) this seems to be a good weapon but for the slow bullet speed dosnt appear to do enough... anything other than fill your ears with a hugely loud quacking noise loud enough to drown out the entire game...

    TR : TMG-50 : Over powered : Now this gun is fairly balance in most situations... its when you change to the 2x burst fire mode that something changes, you can click away at almost full auto speed and pick people off at 200m no problem, this is just about the recoil 'cool down' rate make it take 0.3 seconds longer for the cone of fire to revert to first shot status...

    VS : Sauron HRB : Over powered : The VS perk is accuracy, and the sauron has buckets of it your using a bolt action with no scope sway and a large radius... then you can spam click to empty the clip at huge speeds.

    ALL : Battle Rifles : Under Powered : The battle rifle available to engi and heavy has the workings of a good gun... its sits neatly between the infiltrators two scout rifles but your not an infiltrator at 400m... i, and many others, feel as if either a damage increase or a recoil decrease is in order for all three empires battle rifles...

    NC : Reaper DMR : Under powered : again the workings of a decent weapon but always 2 shots from killing... give this weapon a clip size of 25 instead of the rather measly 20 to keep it up with the other assault rifles whos standard clips are 30.

    Can i also draw attention to empire population levels on servers, on a fair few servers there is on faction that is well above or below the average population, on Waterson the Vanu are often at 25% ish, while on Matherson the situation has caused the VS to have 40% most of the time... ive seen it even reach 60% server pop... there needs to be a mechanic that monitors this as numbers do play a huge part of the game and being in a minority wears down players causing them to consider leaving... its a vicious circle that could, in extreme situations break the game for many people

    If you made it down to the bottom well done to you and thank you, may i stress that i have not been too biased and have done all the statistical research to back up my thoughts as well as creating extra character on the other empires and got opinions from them too. Im sure other people will have opinions but i urge you to comment below with your opinions on weapons highlighted here and many of the other weapons available as im not able to try them all for long enough to gain a full feel for it.

    If you are going to post try to not say 'your wrong' or 'whiner' this is an opinion, i welcome every ones opinion and no opinions are correct or incorrect so lets keep this from being yet another cry fest...
    • Up x 2
  2. strove

    NS : All Weapons : Over powered : in alot of examples the NS range of weapons are the best, or atleast strong contenders so be the best... so if some one gets the NS weapons then it surely removes any need to ever get the empire weapons, if the NS weapons consistatly beat most of the empire alternatives then there is no reason to have three empires... pistols, NS wins, Assault rifles, NS wins... i could go on, the reason some one should want to get an NS weapon is not because its very good spot alongside empire weapons but because they want to have weapons on all three empires...
  3. Mxiter

    Infantries weapon: DPS is not the main characteristics: drop, accuracy, bloom and damage degradation and starters weapons are not made for the same range (orion and carv for close range and NC6 saw for long range).
    ESRL: Phoenix deals 2000 damages to vehicles and Lancer get X2 against ground vehicles (1500 at charge 3). Damages you gave are just against infantries.
    MBT: Prowler get more DPS, Vanguard get more armor, Magrider more mobility.
    MAX: SOE still works on them balance (especially with the new released utilities) and it will continue after GU11.
    NS weapons: NS infantries weapons have better accuracy and ads move speed in general, but have a 143 weapons damage degradation and have a bad ROF/DPS. All faction and all class have better weapons for long range, close range and all rounders.
    Lasher: discutable weapon but non conventional with splash.
    TMG-50: NC's 167 LMG are better at any points.
    Saron: since the AI nerf: Best secondary at close range, but at range halberd is close and the Enforcer is much better because it blooms now.
    Battle rifle: not so bad anymore.
    Reper DMR = AC-X11 200 damages/bullet carabines and AR. It get slight less damages per mag that 143 weapons with 30bullets mag size but are made for long range where reloading isn't an issue.

    The general balance isn't that bad, just few suffs still need tweaking.
  4. strove

    DPS is the main factor in most fights yes there are different roles but with no attachments the orion and t9 carv is more accurate in every situation, and has a smaller spread hipfire
    the phoenix damage is still negligible to the 10-15 seconds of standing prone to any attack and the rocket getting shot down
    i see that the MBTs are fairly balanced but the vanguard armor is a very small amount on the very front, which is one of the least likelyplaces to get hit, there's no hit point increase. the prowler is still more likley to kill more of any target due to damage
    maxes are un deniably poorly balanced and while SOE are hard at work there is more they can do... it took them nearly a month to figure out that changing one figure by 5 could solve the problem...which i don't see it making enough of a difference. when something is dominating as clearly as the ZOE max clearly was you change it quick or we see the 4th faction effect coming in...
    NS weapons: better damage than the commissioner? more damage than a decimator, these are just two examples, the vast majority of the NS weapons are stronger than their empire counterparts, its made the NS-11A possibly the most popular AR in the game
    Lasher: i am willing to see what the new update does to this
    TMG-50: never have i found a weapon i can fire at full auto speeds and hit the target 200m away
    Saron: sauron still does much more damage with sniper accuracy and has just receieved a buff causing it to be more accurate when fast firing
    Battle rifle: still not quite usable
    Reper DMR on the contrary... at longer ranges you want to sustain fire due to the shot being harder to land

    The general balance isn't that bad, just few stuffs still need tweaking agreed
  5. Wulfen109

    Well said strove. This is just barely scratching the surface of imbalance. Keep up the good work
  6. TRNCVS

    Why did you leave out the new jackhammer along with the other heavy weapons? It not only follows NC's traits but also doesn't have the drawback of slower fire rate. Or is this evidence of a little bias? I was thinking of posting my thoughts on this weapon or maybe wait until someone else does.
  7. WaaWaa

    Let everyone have a ZOE MAX. Then it'll all be balanced.
  8. strove

    TRNCVS... i didnt mention any of the empire specific heavy weapons much because i wrote this during the downtime that gave these weapons a buff... since you brought it up i will voice my opinion of the buffs to all three weapons...

    Jackhammer: the reload rate has actually slowed down since the update... the jackhammer is still a situational weapon, it has an effective range in real time fights of up to around 40m... which is alot more than all other shotguns however in close combat unless your very accurate in panic shooting most of your shots will miss due to the very small cone of fire meaning that there will still be few people who can efficiently use this weapon properly...

    Mini Chain Gun: now this has killed me more than any other weapon since the update... its instant fire and surprisingly tight spread make it all all purpose easy to use weapon combined with its general bad-***-ery i feel as if it didnt need as much of a buff as it did

    Im not currently in a position to speak for the lasher as i haven had a chance to use it on my alt nor have i faced any one using it however i shall edit this post when i can...
  9. Kardea

    My biggest concern is that the Dev team seems to treat the three core concepts differentiating the empires equally. They are not.

    As it currently stands, the empires and differentiated thusly:
    1) The NC focuses on heavy weapons and armor. They're intended to take more damage and deal more (per hit), but be notably slower.
    2) The TR focus on high fire-rates and significant mobility. Their weapons are smaller-caliber, but they fire fast and their vehicles are nimble.
    3) The VS focus on "unorthodox" mobility and characteristics. They have neglibible bullet drop, hover vehicles and aircraft, and a larger-than-normal amount of longer-range weapons.

    Here's the problem: When's the last time you saw a Reaver truly take more damage than a Scythe? When's the last time you saw saw a Magrider truly be limited by it's lack of a turret (spoiler alert: a Magrider with a Saron on top is easily more effective in ALL combat situations than any other tank)? The problem is that the factions aren't differentiated ENOUGH. Not even a little bit.
    • Up x 2
  10. Cab00se187

    NS weapons were big mistake imo
  11. strove

    this is too true im afraid kardea... almost all the snipers are identical in every way to the other empires, one of the two SMGs are identical to their cross empire counterparts, heavy rockets are identical... the battle rifles are re skins of each other, again identical... all the shotguns are identical in every way other than projectile speed, which really is nothing at the 5-30m youll be using it... for the most part all the other weapons the VS/TR ones are clones of each other in stats... same damage and ROF with tweaks to some minor stats usually resulting in larger clips for TR and a lil less recoil for VS...

    the trouble is that changing these things will bring alot of changes to alot of people... then you have to balance things out...

    And with regards to NS weapons they should be there, its quite important in the game that there are neutral Nanite Systems weaponry on sale... but this weaponry should be bought BECAUSE their neutral for all empires... not because its the one weapon every single medic recommends to a medic who wants a gun...
  12. strove

    Reddit is OP... ive taken my points elsewhere... Turns out people go to reddit for planetside stuff before the planetside forums... also turns out the the devs spend more time looking though reddit than their own forums...
  13. KanoHe

    Some how you forgot to mention Magriders Main AP Cannon ... It's that horrible right ? Mainly Because Lightning AP is way better right ? :D
  14. strove

    i was only trying to show that yet again the TR has a higher DPS than the 'heavy hitting' NC...
  15. strove

    not sure what point your trying to get accross KanoHe... in any case i dont want to lose this to complaints about recent updates... and im not going to leave this alone until this is the update...
  16. RumFive

    Game suffers from poor map design/mechanics to faction imbalance to vehicle schizophrenia. This game also suffers from the cash shop monetization prioritization over game balance fun issues. I personally think it could have used another YEAR IN BETA. Also it needs to cater less to the playerbase and figure out what the hell it wants to be other then a cash shop money grubbing piece of I got released to soon and will die a horrible early death syndrome. Thank you.
  17. strove

    the over emphasis on cash shop additions does stick in my mind when i think of how little time, even i could edit some of the balances listed in my original post... and yet we get flare guns instead... not sure how to decrypt the rest of your comment rum... but its good to see some people see what i see...