Flax / Lock-on vs ESF REAL Suggestion

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Wolfborne, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. LordKrelas

    As the enemy Spawn point is in the sky.. right above the capture point.
    The sunderers are far away, and easily destroyed, unlike that Galaxy.

    I've been talking about no means to Get rid of, or stop that Galaxy, from the ground with your wanted barrier.
    If galaxies couldn't drop infantry from up there, it'll be a lot better at the least.
    But so would ESFs only having A2A.

    A Galaxy in the sky above the point vs Sunderer.
    One is immortal to ground-fire, The other is dead to one Light-Assault.
    That Squad has the most secure spawn-point possible, with the Galaxy like that.


    I would have to be an A2A ESF Pilot, skilled in the exact A2A Combat of ESFs, to chase that.
    If they're better, the ESF I'm flying is fodder.
    It would be like Firing a pistol at an SMG-Heavy with a Full-shield; Asking for pain.

    Terrain is static.
    To align your Tank with terrain that happens to allow that angle, that happens to align to target.
    That is a lot of factors.
    Enemy Air has to be in a lineal motion, or static, Be unaware of an Armored tank, and the angle has to fit.
    Too far, and your shot misses due to arc limitation.
    Too close, and you can't angle it.
    No amount of skill will magic the terrain into perfect angle to nail the shot: The Enemy Air has to allow itself to be in position.

    Or are you saying, A group of Tankers are able by skill, drive into a location, and nail aircraft that aren't acting as gun-turrets or moving in a straight-line?
    You know, without using an entire cliff.


    Exactly.
    Not everyone is skilled in tanks.. We have other options to kill a tank, than a tank.
    However, you can actually kill with a basic lighting.
    You do know of the Hover-Maneuver right? For ESFs, the exact combat method that eclipses?
    Oh, and your built-in-radar, usually paired with Stealth: A combo that doesn't exist for tanks.
    Numerous methods exist, to engage tanks; Infantry, Tanks, Harassers, Air, even Sunderers.
    And they all have AV tools, that typically demand different skills.

    Their combat is straight forward, and has options in short.
    ESF, You expect them to fly an ESF, against that ESF: That is one specific option.
    And recall, only one set-up wins in that: hover-frame. And a specific combat type.

    Against a tank, You could play anything, and actually get results.
    Archers, tank-mines, C-4, Rocket Launchers, Rocklets, Anti-Tank Grenades.
    And that's just infantry; These all also work against infantry not just tanks, to a degree.
    Now Anti-Air: That's a nope.

    My point was:
    You can't expect someone to be a pilot, at all times.
    That's a bit absurd: Ah yes, To defend yourself, You must be a skilled ESF A2A pilot.
    That's not just asking for someone to use a different tool; That's demanding them, to have a specific skill-set specific to an Exact vehicle type, to engage that same vehicle.
    Which can choose to engage them, at any moment, Without said player being able to disengage.
    IE that ground-player, They can't disengage from that A2G pilot.
    That pilot however can: And you expect that Ground-player, to also be a pilot, and to fly at any moment.
    When does this first Pilot, get expected to Drive?


    You literally accuse me of being a zergling, levy assaults on my characters, and try to discredit any argument I have..
    Based on accusations of "no skill", rather than sound evidence, or showing why my argument is wrong.
    That is what people do, when they can't actually have a debate, or prove someone wrong.
    They attack the person, as they couldn't find flaws.

    Are you admitting to this? Or can you return to being partially civil.
    Try to understand, that not everyone is a dedicated Pilot, or enjoys flying at a moment's notice.
    • Up x 2
  2. LodeTria

    It's not a problem that you cannot stop it from the ground. Forcing you to use the aircraft for SOMETHING is not a problem. Why don't you understand this? Giving Squads a reason to work together is not a problem. If this supposed barrier existed and you refused to engage in the mechanic it's your own fault for ignoring it.

    Also, the most secure spawn point possible is the spawn room for defenders. A thing that is ACTUALLY indestructible and usable by everyone, squad or no squad. So you couldn't even get that right.



    Once again, a better player killing you is not a problem. You do not deserve a participation trophy. You do not deserve to kill that A2G ESF if he is better than you.

    YES! Tankers do that all the time! Even when aircrafts are actively attacking them they do it because they must otherwise they will die. Do some tanks die? Of course. Do some aircraft make mistakes and then die? Of course aswell. The whole dynamic of AP nailing aircraft is the tanker trying to get shots and the aircraft avoiding giving them. That's the whole point of that power play between the 2.

    You could cry and just die and complain on the forums like you do, but other players are made of sterner stuff.


    Infantry, Tanks harassers and sunderers can equip Flak guns, Walker Guns or even basiliks to engage air. The options to engage air do exist, but you won't use them.

    Many of your options to kill a tank that you just described are not very good at killing infantry at all, like archer? Really? Rocklets on infantry? LOL. Anti-tank grenades? Before they was nerfed maybe but now? lol. You're using outdated or just plain made up arguments there.

    Flak guns haven't had problems killing aircraft for awhile now. It' just that most users aren't very good at it, just like how most of the playerbase gets farmed by the better ones in infantry, ground vehicles and air vehicles.

    If the player isn't willing to engage in the mechanical systems of the game it is their own fault and must live with the consequence of that. In the case of this thread, you will suffer endless troops dropping on you because you refuse to use the tools available to KILL that spawn point, something attackers can't even do to defenders, since the spawn box IS invulnerable.


    A persons skill level in any subject should be known. A person who's never touched ESF is going to give a pretty **** analysis on what the ESF is capable of, something you have done many times on this forum. You speak from a point of ignorance often and cus this forum is full of bads like yourself you get away with it.


    They just ask the game me morphed into the thing they are good at instead, in which aircraft have no role & infantry reign supreme. Something the devs have done since the start and even pushed further and now the game is dying for real. Good job. Enjoy our dying game while you can I guess.
  3. TR5L4Y3R


    underlining what he said .. you want players to go your way of playstyle staying incapable with theirs ..

    .. why i don´t have interest in flying? shi tty controls, to the point of wristpain .. bad AA weapons with the exception of the skillbased ones, which again get´s f cked through the shi tty controls ..
    you are right i can´t be bothered to pull air .. FOR THESE REASONS .. and the day i´m forced to play this shi t i rather leave you skyknights in your small little bubble ...
  4. Campagne

    Well, firstly the nanite repair will be active a lot of the time even in a contested area, especially if AA can't touch the gal. Secondly, proxy repair also helps protect the friendly ESFs around the gal even if another galaxy isn't present, and thirdly FS is just free heath on demand ever 45s or so. And I thought we already came to the conclusion that I'm infantry in this scenario? :p

    Once again you make the assumption the enemy will even bother to attack the galaxy with their own air and not just target the ground instead or simply go somewhere else with less resistance. You also make the assumption once again that no air is defending the galaxy and that a lib could just float on over.

    Mmm, your salt sustains me.

    Where in the quote did I mention valks? This is just another instance of reading comprehension. The context indicates galaxies only, there is no reason to assume "indestructible" applies to the small-arms-susceptible Valkyrie.

    Do I have to literally spell this out for you? Draw physical lines between corresponding ideas? Sheesh man, put a little bit of thought into this for once.

    So basically yes, you admit infantry is the only unit incapable of dealing with all threats given the correct loadout. And as per usual the existence of air and A2G demonstrates that nothing keeps air out of fights and certainly not the less-than-lethal flak weapons we have now.

    Oh, I wonder what that "report" button does. Maybe I'll check it out later... :p
    • Up x 3
  5. adamts01

    That would be fine if > 99% of the player base didn't hate using air. Remember Hiveside, where you HAD to focus on construction to win? This isn't much different, except arguably more people like construction than do flying.
    • Up x 3
  6. Silkensmooth

    You do know that you can reconfigure air controls didnt you? There is an entirely sperate keybind menu for aircraft.
  7. Silkensmooth

    This is not true.

    We now have air anomalies. Don't know if you have seen them since you dont play, but at times there are so many planes in the sky its hard to SEE the sky.

    The reason more people dont fly is because you CAN NOT participate in large battles.

    This game is billed as being all about large battles.

    So if a segment of the population cant play at battles at all, THATS the problem. Not some imaginary problem with flight controls which happen to be the exact same controls that tanks and infantry use.

    People dont fly because if you go anywhere near a battle you instantly get shot down or DETERRED and you have to leave.

    Since most people dont want to not be able to participate in large battles, and since you CAN NOT if play as air, they do something else.

    Again, air anomalies prove that given a role a decent number of players DO enjoy flying.

    If you dont play the game, maybe you shouldn't post about it.
  8. Silkensmooth

    I actually didnt want to fly either.

    I wanted to play infantry, but i kept getting killed by tanks.

    So i would grab an ESF with rocket pods and kill the tanks.

    I was sort of FORCED to fly and i came to love it.

    Bottom line is that this is supposed to be combined arms, between infantry, vehicles, and aircraft.

    What is required is some leadership by the devs, to say, sorry combined arms, if your opponent has an airforce and you dont, you are probly going to lose.

    Instead they caved to the tankers and made flak so powerful that there is no place for air.

    If thats the way they want it, then they should have the cajones to come out and say that they dont want air to be part of the game.
  9. Campagne

    Honestly, much of this thread:
    Can't we just be allowed to play the ways we want to? This is a game after all, demanding players all play with only infantry or only tanks or only air to fight infantry, tanks, or air is just stupid.

    This is just not true and it is a line I see plastered just everywhere.

    The fact of the matter if aircraft are only held back when they enter a hex alone or in very small numbers. If there were 15v15 ESFs over a large fight any amount of AA which would not handicap the local fighters would not be able to kill or deter any of them.

    If one ESF flies into an area with two or more dedicated AA units obviously it will have some difficulty operating, but if there are two ESFs and only one AA unit the roles will be revered and the AA will be killed.

    Anecdotal, but I don't really enjoy flying and I sometimes participate in aerial anomalies regardless. Ya' know, when it isn't totally one-sided with an entire air-zerg hovering half-AFK in the area.

    You go on to talk about combined arms but didn't actually employ combined arms to solve the problem. All that you did was jump from the bottom of the food chain to the top. How is this a solution? How does this utilize combined arms when a single player pulled a vehicle to kill a vehicle?

    Sounds a bit like how I got in to sniper rifles though! :D
    • Up x 3
  10. LordKrelas

    So, if you're on the ground, and the enemy is a pilot.
    The solution is not be on the ground, to be a Pilot.
    Okay, You want to kill a tank; Get out of the plane. That's the same BS logic.

    Work together?
    Enemy Air Squad rolls in, Allies requires Air.
    The Enemy Air Squad, has no use for:
    Their own land vehicles
    Their own infantry, past the guys they're dropping out of the sky
    Have no need to actually care about any enemy vehicle on the ground, Just about the Points.

    Your wanted safe-zone, literally means, Air doesn't have to care about enemy ground forces.
    As nothing on the ground can stop that galaxy, Only Pilots.
    We aren't playing a game of "Air Domination"
    Allied Pilots have no motive, to stop their farm, to attack enemy Galaxies.
    Bases, can't be reliant entirely on allied ESFs to prevent an Endless stream of Galaxy drops.

    Attackers having a spawn point At the point, in the sky, via a Galaxy
    Vs the Defense, whom have a Ground-based spawn with exact paths, and usually so incredibly pigon-holed it isn't funny.
    Attackers do not have this spawn-room, they had sunderers, and galaxies.
    If defense has a Galaxy, Obviously the spawn-room is "more secure" or unlikely to be removed.
    But I talk about the Attackers having the Galaxy.

    Better player in what regard?
    That they're an ESF Pilot, skilled in A2A?
    Do I have to be better than them, in Piloting an ESF in A2A combat, just to stop an A2G assault?
    If I have to be an A2A Pilot Ace, to kill an A2G Pilot...Whom is using an entirely different skill-set to attack the ground..
    Then you just put priority on A2A Piloting skills, Over any other gameplay aspect, the instant Air decided to grace the ground.

    I do use Anti-air guns.
    They are deterrents.
    The enemy air, unless braindead, over-committing, or similar lives easily.
    With your suggestion, That Air can literally fly upwards, into safety, see every target they like, and dip in & out of a spawn shield.

    Flak is not effective.
    It requires Mass-spammage to kill.

    We call AV effective, when the target actually dies not due to Operator Failure solely.
    AI is effective when it kills; Notice the Kobalt is incredibly effective.

    Flak? You have less capability against all targets, and its deterrent-based per design.
    With your suggestion, Flak also becomes incapable of hitting opponents that are near a sky-line...
    So Galaxies basically will never be shot, as they can operate in this skyline.

    Your first action related to "skill" or comparisons.
    Was to attack me, on a personal level, to attempt to call any argument or data I said invalid, based on Personal combat data.
    Not to prove my data points wrong, But to attack me as a Person.
    You're looking for what to pick apart, to call me inferior, to discredit me, Not my argument.
    IE, if I gave you that, All I would ever get from you, would be personal attacks on my stats, Not you ever actually showing or countering my actual arguments, But you spending all your time looking for a stat to insult.
    • Up x 2
  11. LordKrelas

    for the sake of Time:

    Perhaps the Pilots should state the Difference between Air-to-air Combat between ESFs
    And Air-to-Ground Combat from the ESF.
    As if I recall, how that combat plays out, is vastly different skill sets.

    To engage an ESF in A-2-A is not at all, the same skills used by the pilot during their Air-to-Ground attacks.
    Which means, If someone has to do A2A, to engage a A2G pilot, The skill-set used is vastly different, than the one pilot used to attack originally.
    Which means, the only skill-set that matters would be their A2A skill, yet their A2G skill was all that was needed to begin the one-sided shelling on Land units.
    Neither of which, relate to any other skills in the game: A2A Duels, have their own world of requirements & skills.
    Like the reverse-maneuver, something that only works & is only able to be learned in aircraft.
    Which also dictates A2A Combat, but nothing else.

    Which is akin to "Sniper killing your troops. Duel them with a Knife"
    The two aren't related at all, in what skills are being used, or tactics, or even actions.
    Being good with a sniper rifle, does not collaborate to being good with a Knife.
    The same is true with A2A & A2G, is it not? They're not using the same exact skills.
    • Up x 2
  12. adamts01

    Air anomalies are a funny thing. You're confusing people who want to fly with those who like to fly. So sure, if their faction is zerging the event, then they might get an ESF and hover up there, but don't mistake those numbers for people who would be flying if only air had a purpose. As for me not playing anymore, air hasn't changed, and I still understand its problems more than most. And I've only really been gone for about half a year. It's not like things are that different.
    • Up x 3
  13. Wolfborne

    Earlier tonight I was flying a Scythe and guess what? I entered a hex that was 96+ vs 96+. Even though there was AA, I did not get blown out of the sky. I actually killed 2 Mossies, 1 Valkyrie, 1 Liberator and assisted with 2 inbound Galaxies, over a 5 minute period. Our armor engaged their armor, our infantry engaged their infantry, and our air engaged their air. That's the way it should be.

    Dunno what to tell you other than to try and stay above 350 (ground locks won't lock), don't fly in a straight line, and keep your head on a swivel.
  14. TR5L4Y3R


    except that the things that i concider neccesary are not, but like you give a crap about that ..
    do you have any bull- sh.it to say other than .. "oh you clearly don´t fly" ... or any useless mention of limited changes of keybindings to a player that plays the game for a couple years?
  15. MonnyMoony


    You are ignoring galaxies though. Gimbal lock gals can be hard enough to get rid of as it is without making them completely invulnerable.

    It's not always about who can see who.
  16. MonnyMoony


    This is true - I only tend to pull AA when the Mustang Reavers or Banshee Mossies show up to farm ground targets with impunity.

    Perhaps the real fix for this would be to remove these dedicated infantry farming tools.
  17. TR5L4Y3R

    oh my god the irony and falsehood of this ...


    no they don´t, they only show that because of free costs people are willing to participate in it in the first place to get ANY sort of flyexperience .. before being knocked back to the ground ..



    ah the typical oh you don´t participate so you have no right/credibility to be part of the conversation ... except the guy played for years ..

    seriously i´m very close to consider blocking you ..
    • Up x 3
  18. Demigan

    Actually, why bother with that?

    At 300m distance a Skyguard already hits maybe 1 in 3 hits. At 700m this becomes nigh impossible to deal any meaningful damage, assuming you can hit at all due to slow projectile velocity.

    An aircraft flying at 500m height needs to be 500m away from a base to be 700m away. 500m is less than 2,5 hex's. Looking at the territory on Fisu on any active continent right now:
    https://ps2.fisu.pw/control/?world=10

    You can see that the amount of bases and the hex's associated with them allows for a lot of leniency. There's several gaps on each continent right now where aircraft could simply cross the frontline at 500m height without ever being under fire! Fly at 860m height and you can be more than 1000m away from anyone if you fly at more than 500m distance from a base. Fly at the flight ceiling and you are completely safe unless you fly almost right on top of people.

    Now for the genius part: If you look at those maps not only do you have gaps in the frontline where you can cross over, you can also see that more than 80% of the continent is free of any bases that could sport AA. If you also consider average approaches to and from nearby aircraft spawns and ammo pads towards this frontline you can easily intercept and dogfight with enemy aircraft, undisturbed by AA, right now in the game.

    But for some reason everyone needs a safe space? And who asked for this again? Silkensmooth who also asked for more combined arms? Combined arms by segregating aircraft from ground when it suits aircraft? And by making A2A ESF become even more than it already is the most lone-wolf, individualistic vehicles in the game?

    As already mentioned people would just park a Galaxy over a base they want to take and drop people right on top of points. And we'll get the lovely tactic of aircraft being able to engage anyone, anywhere, more than ever before as they can quite literally approach unseen and impossible to engage. Not that aircraft need this, if you fly at the flight ceiling right now and dive down you can already create this effect (I do it and it's pretty fool-proof except for A2A ESF). But the oh-so-great and awesome skynights haven't even picked up on that one?

    It's all asking for something that already exists, only they want it to be so incredibly easy to pull off with 100% success rate. Why should aircraft get a free space to fight in if aircraft can absolutely screw everyone else over? Why should we ask for combined arms, which the game sorely needs, and then segregate aircraft from the rest until aircraft feel like joining while the ground troops never get this option? Would the game even be fun if everyone had the option to be invisible and invulnerable to the other arms in the game whenever they want?
    • Up x 3
  19. adamts01

    He's just suggesting a bandaid. It's the flak mechanic that needs to go. No-skill weapons in a small enough mass become a hard counter. Not too dissimilar to air locks. It's just bad. Your autocannon ideas are the real solution.

    Another change that would drastically help is letting NAR constantly repair a tiny bit as well as kick in Auto-Rep air earlier. Not enough to matter in a fight, but enough to negate chip damage from those 1,100 meter hits that constantly plink aircraft. That "insignificant" damage is a serious annoyance to air. I'd like to see the same change to ground NAR.
  20. Baneblade

    Aircraft already have it too easy, so no, let's not buff them.
    • Up x 1