Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Brad seven, Jan 1, 2015.
all of the max abilities suck
fix all of them
So spell it out, what does ZOE do exactly.
I think buffing the TR MAX lockdown is fine but the Prowler really doesn't need it. Not until Magrider at least gets something better to equalize as I see vastly more Prowlers and Vanguards using their ES ability compared to Magriders.
The Max lockdown could be changed 1 of 2 ways as I see it.
1. They could drastically increase its effect while slowing down the anchor process as to truly turn the max into a turret. This would leave anchored maxes more vulnerable but with team support should give them better results then now.
2. Reduce the benefit a little and speed up the anchor process to the point where its practically 0.1 of a second to engage/disengage creating a more versatile MAX that looks for areas to clamp down and shoot then move moments later.
All in all though TR and VS MAX ES abilities need to be adjusted or better yet reworked entirely and NC just needs its bugs fixed.
You're the perfect example of why it's impossible to say anything other than VS stuff being under powered.
The ZoE ability cuts your armor in return for giving the Max better mobility and a damage buff. For 15 seconds. Haven't seen the damage buff do much, don't know if it's a bug, don't know if it's very minor.
Now go away, you're clearly going to just pester me because God forbid I think ZoE is a good ability.
May be so, but unfortunately there's a lot of hate against Maxes. So everyone gets a mediocre ability.
I don't know how it was on PS-1, but a lot of veterans seem to have preferred the PS-1 system, maybe the devs should considering going back to those abilities.
Lockdown as far as I can tell from experience is the most useful of the three but still very situational. I normally equip it on my burster or pounder loadout. For bursters it's great for the velocity and ROF buff but comes with the downside of 180 degree fire, runs out of ammo quickly, and can't move for 3 seconds after turning it off. For the pounders they are great because it just melts sundays and works pretty well for getting behind cover. Also sometimes for camping biolab doorways just spam M1 while behind cover and let that splash make them retreat ever coming out of the spawn room, kind of like a worse lasher. Although with these situations, it's all about placement and knowing the right time because if not your just a sitting duck whose time on earth will be short if not used right. P.S. Pounders are love, pounders are life.
The only situation in which I would use the Aegis Shield is to cover a dead max while the medics+engineers pick him up. The rest of the time I prefer charge because it enables you to run up stairs that the enemy are trying to cover and get behind them, or to run away when you are in trouble.
When I see a TR max I see a free c4 kill. Zealot Overdrive maxes.... I don't think I have seen that being used.
Here, I'll be more specific.
When ZOE is active
● Forward walk speed increases by 50%
● Strafe and back walk speeds increase by 43%
● Sprint does not get a speed increase, though the MAX will reach top speed faster
● The weapon damage increase is now the same across all cert levels.
-Only close range damage is increased.
-Far range damage and blast damage are no longer increased
●The ability lasts for 15 seconds and it cannot be turned off after activation. This does not change when ranking the ability up
●A reuse timer has been added. Each cert rank will reduce this timer
ZOE max rank now lowers the MAXs resistance to small arms fire by 5% instead of 10%. All ranks: 9/8/7/6/5% reduction.
So the movement comparison to other units are below.
Infantry running speed: 6.5 m/s
Infantry walking speed: 4 m/s
Infantry backward walking speed: 3 m/s
Infantry strafing speed: 3 m/s
MAX running speed: 6 m/s
MAX walking speed: 3 m/s
MAX backward walking speed: 2 m/s
MAX strafing speed: 2 m/s
ZOE MAX running speed: 6 m/s
ZOE MAX walking speed: 4.5 m/s
ZOE MAX backward walking speed: ~2.86 m/s
ZOE MAX strafing speed: ~2.86 m/s
Since MAXes have acceleration they can't ADAD like infantry.
For Armour and hit point differences below, [note these are only small arms value as ZOE has weird resist to other damage sources.]
●Stock max against small arms. 10000 effective HP. Against a Gauss Saw within 8m it's 50 STK with a TTK at 6 seconds @ 100% accuracy.
●Max KA Max. 16000 effective HP. Against a Gauss Saw within 8m it's 80 STK with a TTK at 9.6 seconds @ 100% accuracy.
●ZOE max @ 5% lower small arms resist without KA 5. Effective HP of 8000. Gauss Saw within 8m is 40 STK with a TTK at 4.8 seconds @ 100% accuracy.
●ZOE max @ 5% with KA5 [assuming final MAX small arms resist is 82.5%]. Effective HP of ~ 11430 HP. Against a Gauss Saw within 8m is 58 STK with a TTK of ~ 7 seconds @ 100% accuracy.
So with ZOE on you 20% weaker against a non KA max against just small arms and let's various NC MAXes 1 clip you within 8m.
With ZOE on and KA5 equipped, you are ~28% weaker compared to a KA 5 MAX and most if not all xtended mag NC maxes can 1 clip you.
TL; DR. : So with ZOE you get negligible TTK or STK difference against standard infantry targets, a very negligible and non noticeable speed increase all while being 20-28% weaker with maxed out gear.
Pretty much every reasonable person here agrees that ZOE is bad, why won't you admit it too.
these 2 replys exactly reflect my experience using lockdown
honestly those that dont like lockdown im guessing have never used pounders with them - pounders are just so much fun with lockdown
destroy sunderers in seconds - it seems like no amount of engineers can repair as fast as you can destroy sundys with a lockdown pounder
any vehicle that sits still gets murdered by lockdown pounders
kill infantry at a distance in just 2 shots and with lockdown you can spam loads of grenades and its the only viable long distance max AI weapon - even if you miss splash can kill infantry round corners (ok not a massive splash but it has been handy at times)
you just have to know when and where to use lockdown - dont lockdown right in front of a vehicle and you are good
since i started playing TR almost every sundy i see on the map gets rekt by my lockdown pounders - when i notice a sundy anywhere i just see free XP with my lockdown pounders
all that said lockdown is totally useless with normal AI weapons - you are just an easy target
Well first off, a lot of VS players on this forum aren't exactly reasonable. Exact reason I rarely can say VS stuff isn't bad. Because you get people like yourself, who drown out opposition as best
Secondly, I don't care about the armor. I use the Max aggressively. If I see that there's a strong defense set up. I end up throwing the Zoe Max in to kill as many medics and engineers as I can. The ability, fits perfectly with it.
Third, the buffs you get from it, may be small. But small changes is usually what you end up with in this game, and so far, it's done pretty well for me
I think you're exaggerating the difficulties with ZoE, just like when the Lancer was complained about. It's not as bad as you say it is.
I myself, would prefer just having more mobility at the cost of armor, and run it indefinitely. Just like the Aegis shield sacrifices firepower for Armor, and Lock down sacrifices mobility for firepower.
Lockdown: Useless, if there are 3 Enemys with TS you are death. ---> You kill number 1 nr. 2 and 3 just rockedpod you, because you are on the same Position where you killed Nr1. Of course in some special situations very specal specal lockdown is good.
AND the BIG plus on Lockdown is the AA, it makes the AA Max better as the skyguard.
So lockdown is good for AA but nothing else.
Zoe: Well was absolutely overpowered, and because of the speed buf really hard to balance. Right now it is anti teamplay, what makes it SO incredible bad! Because a max is here to TANK damage but i perfer the actual ZOE max over the overpowered old one, because the old one messed up the Game.
Shield: Just not as usefull as it should be, if a max is coming in your direction with the shield up, it shoult just take NO Dmg at all, so 10 maxes could walk like a phalanx.... but this would be slightly op so you would need to buff the other 2 factions stuff... and we all only like to nerf everything to death ;-)
In my opinion all max skills could need a SMALL buff or tweaks...
Should probably just rethink all 3 MAX abilities. I dunno, what, exactly.
Maybe something like:
TR = Overcharge. Weapons fire and reload at 2x rate for X seconds. Y second cooldown.
NC = Overshield. Basically what the Vanguard gets, which is to say, a functional version of what they have now.
VS = Overexplode. Upon pressing the button, the VS MAX explodes. It doesn't do any damage. You just die. All nearby Vanu also die. Actually, this just happens randomly all the time to all Vanu everywhere. God I hate Vanu.
Anyway, I'd think less about how to tweak the existing ideas and more about how to scrap them and come up with something else.
Except you don't kill regular infantry any faster at the cost of 20-28% lower effective health against small arms, the speed increase is almost negligible.
At MAX rank of ZOE you get a small damage increase with no noticible TTK differences, a very very small negligible speed increase 0.86 m/s, all for a 20-28% reduction in effective HP against small arms [don't even get me started about explosives and such as decimators almost 1 shot you.].
You speaking from complete anecdotal evidence, you haven't provided any proof or numbers on how ZOE is even decently good and have only shown me a pictures of a max with Zoe in the load out option that no one here had any idea if it's yours or you even bother to use ZOE.
Who am I to change your mind when you already decided on how you feel in a ZOE max with no proof, pure anecdotal of how you feel, even you said it yourself "I feel lighter when ZoE is on, feels more comfortable.".
Show me a video or proof of how ZOE is even decent or passable as an ability because right now all your doing is showing anecdotal proof and how you feel while I'm showing you numbers and proof, I will not continue this discussion until you show proof or numbers on how ZOE is even passable because right now I'm talking to a brick wall that is unwilling to change his views.
Have you considered that maybe instead of staring at paper stats, you should actually figure out how to use the ability? Instead of whining on the forums about how ZoE is **** on paper?
Go play, figure out how to use ZOE, and stop pestering me about ZoE.
You're a leech because you require more maintenance from your allies, or you need more downtime if you don't get this help.
Not to mention how there will be situations that will get you killed, but the non ZOE max will survive.
All because you want the really minor changes to your momentum (others already pointed out why that part is really insignificant in CQC).
Btw, from having played against the VS MAX, it's easier to kill a ZOE one than a non-ZOE one. Why? You're not going to move fast enough to evade fire (like in the olden days), the damage buff serves as a rather mex SPA (which for your choice of Blueshift doesn't really matter at all - so you're right that you don't feel it) and for what? To look fabulous?
Also, charge can be used to flee a fight, not just to get into it.
Did you ever stop to consider that you, as the very notable minority here, are wrong?
So to start, I'm not a Leech, because my Max usually will not be making it out. I know I'll usually be on my own when I use a VS Max, that's why I use auto-repair. I just try to break their defense be making sure turrets aren't manned, Maxes aren't repaired, and no one's revived and healed.
Hell I even used it the same way before the nerf.
The only Max I use defensively like I said, is the Terran one.
The VS and NC Max, rarely make it out. I use their firepower and armor to hit medics and engineers, and whatever happens happens.
Secondly, I doubt I'm the minority in the entire game, because so far it seems more people are glad ZOE has been cut, and the devs apparently agree, because they haven't been buffing the VS, they've been nerfing the VS.
I still wish the Vs could have gotten our old Jumpjets on the Maxes, Hell they would be Easy to balance compared to the ZoE speed boost they tried. Just as an example
Vanu jump jets: Enough fuel to jump 1 floor (think the smallest buildings) at rank 1, up to first level of a tower at rank 5, Regen time remains constant between ranks (IE takes same time to regen a rank 1 or rank 5 jumpjet). Jump fuel regen time is at minimum 2 times that of Basic jumpjets on a Light assault (as they are light units so they still retain better mobility then the Max can). Possibly balance it around slower vertical acceleration compared to a LA as well. so really the Jump jets would never match the performance of even a BR1 LA's for overall usage.
Downside: Due to the extra mechanisms needed to use these jumpjets, when equipped the VS max sacrifices 10% HP (not resists, HP) and 1 less Magazine of ammunition, also Self repair Mechanism only work at half efficiency. This is designed around the idea that a Max with Jets is sacrificing their sustainability in the field without Engy to be able to jump small buildings, and being that it is a permanent change, makes you want to have it only when you expect to use it, not for slug fests.
See quick and dirty, hell I probably made the downsides a bit worse then I would have wanted. I could see numerous ways and tweaks to give the VS the Ps1 max ability back without making it overpowered, by adding a new plane of mobility, while reducing their tanking and Sustainability in the field.
I just want them to scrap ZOE, as there is no way they can even really balance it so it is actually useful without making it the go to ability.
I'll put it this way. I have used the ZOE, and I find far more versatility in Basic Charge, which gives me the Mobility to get out of dodge when needed with out taking a Ton more damage, for a Minimal damage increase and speed boost that to be honest any competent Shooter can compensate for (as the Max is both a Larger target, and if you cant hit infantry running at their normal speeds you have some problems).
That and I Shake my head each time I see someone use ZOE on a Burster max. Never understood why someone would want to make themselves a big glowing target that takes more damage.
Uh yes you are.
Or less useful than you could have been. Either way is a negative to your faction.
If you usually don't make it out alive, you -are- doing something wrong. Especially by using ZOE. It basically means you die faster than you would have without => doing less damage => being less effective = you didn't really get a benefit from using that ability.
And yes, you are the minority. If me and my in game mates feel like it, we ask people who use it the "why" question. It usually boils down to them thinking the damage buff is substantial, while it's anything but. Because even with it you're slower than or the same speed as infantry, with more inertia to your momentum.
I'm not sure you really know how to properly play the MAX if you keep dying when using it. I'd even wager that ZOE is part of the cause for it.
Okay, whatever. We disagree on the effectiveness of basically being a kamikaze Max.
As for the damage buff with ZoE, I myself, don't see it. I never really noticed much of a buff, not with Vortexes, Bursters, or my Blueshifts. I don't know if I'm just not paying attention much to how many hits it takes, or the buff isn't really significant, but I don't see it.
I don't think it should be there in the first place.
I think ZoE should simply cut armor, and give mobility in return. How much mobility I think is up to the devs. Maybe enough to make the Max better perhaps against rockets, and tank rounds, but enough to be vulnerable to a pursuer.
I should let you know, that I can play the Max well, I like Maxes a lot, it's just with the NC and VS, I found it more fun and useful to just throw myself in, and use ZOE, or my Double shotguns take out targets quickly, so the enemy has no way to sustain their defense, and my faction wins that little fight.
To what extent I actually harm the offensive overall, I don't know, but I do know that I've had success with going after medics and engineers. And because of that, I continue to play like that when I go NC or VS.
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