Fix the Mag Rider.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by AntDX316, Jul 10, 2020.

  1. Demigan

    Please do not spout nonsense, it is ugly and disrespectful towards others period.

    The Magrider already has the greatest versatility of all 3 MBT's, and the last update that auto-granted the Magburner without needing a slot was another upgrade to the Magrider.

    People might not be saying directly "buff me more to be stronger", but complaints about "we think we are weak" are ultimately requests to either buff the Magrider or nerf the other tanks. There's only a handful of people, if that, who ask for balanced idea's to make the game overall better rather than just their own toys. I have said before that I have no problems with buffing the Magrider and especially the Magrider versatility, as long as the other tanks get similar treatment.

    The Magrider is great at ranged combat. Why wouldn't it be? At range it has the best chance of avoiding hits, the best ability to control the engagement's range and positions and since it's the best one at moving&shooting while the others have to stop to fire with any accuracy at all at longer ranges you have a great boost in capabilities. The "lower HP" which is only compared to the Vanguard is easily offset by it's ability to avoid getting hit.

    I think all 3 factions need to be able to build side-grades far more. ANT's would be perfect support vehicles where you can swap out your loadouts to modify yourself for the coming engagement (with a cooldown ofcourse). For ranged combat and especially for anti-infantry and anti-light armor (Harasser, MAX's, ESF) all 3 factions could use a variety of auto-canons with high elevations to deal with them. Their lowered total DPS but high accuracy would make them valuable at ranged combat but not to the extreme (assuming we avoid the original Gatekeeper nightmare scenario).

    Having other abilities for all 3 factions would also be welcome. Imagine if your Magrider can create a mirror-imgage of itself. At close range the mirror-image is wavering and easier to identify, but at long-range it becomes harder to see which one to shoot. I would also love to see things like the Magrider being able to teleport (use nanites to disassemble and re-assemble) under specific circumstances for example. Just try and poke around these forums, I've posted some things for the Magrider you might like.

    The VS do have an MBT, and the Magrider is well able to fulfill that role. At close range it has it's maneuverability to get into an advantageous position, at range it can just do it's strafing magic to avoid getting hit while it fires it's guns.

    What numbers? Why are you creating numbers in favor of your argument, numbers that are seemingly out of nowhere? Why does the Magrider require more than twice the shots to dial in the range? It has quite literally the same bullet velocity and drop as the Prowler's guns, and the Vanguard has a whopping 25m/s higher muzzle velocity, not exactly something that will make the shots twice as easy to lead.
    The Prowler has two shots to dial in the range per magazine, that makes it easier.
    The Vanguard has 25m/s extra to his shots, that makes it easier.
    The Magrider has a much harder to hit hitbox and can stay moving, which the others cannot. It's up to you to make use of that, if you fail than that's your problem. Here's a hint: Magriders can leave their cover for much greater distances. The TR and NC need to stand still and keep their sides showing so they can easily pop back into cover. If you do the same they'll just dial in the range to the edge of your cover and keep hitting you, easy peasy. If you move farther out of your cover and go forwards/backwards you can make sure they stop hitting you and have to re-align their shots, while you know much better how much you moved forwards/backwards and have an easier time recalculating your angle to keep hitting them.

    You have the most maneuverable vehicle that can go through the most terrain of all MBT's, and you are still surprised by your opponents? First learn some basic situational awareness and skills with the Magrider, then come back and complain if you actually know how it works. The person who should be surprising the other two is the Magrider, not the other way around.
    Also the Magrider moves because he can, not because he must. In the meantime the NC and TR would absolutely love to move and fire with the Magrider's accuracy at longer distance combat, but simply cannot do so. You mostly see long-range shots on the move by the NC and TR at places like Indar Excavation, where the shots are more potshots in the hopes of getting a few hits in to get the enemy to fall back a bit rather than attempts to accurately murder something. You see there that the moment they mean business they stop and fire.

    Because I prefer playing with the underdog. But whenever I play the VS I always love to play the Magrider. We even spend our first certs on them: One spend it on the Harasser so we always have a vehicle available and one on the Magrider. It was absolutely wonderful to for example murder two Vanguards in quick succession with a mostly vanilla Saron Magrider by rear-ending them in a way I could never have with my Lightning, Vanguard or Prowler because the terrain didn't allow. Something like that simply wouldn't have been possible in a mostly Vanilla Vanguard. I even held back two Vanguards (one 1/2 and one 2/2) at medium/long range while waiting for my gunner to arrive at a techplant, before bugging out and returning after some repairs to take one out and die to the other. There's so much freedom in the Magrider with where you can go, and what you have to worry about. You don't have to thread the needle as allied Lightnings come by, as you can simply cross over them and you won't be blocked in critical situations. Sure you'll miss a shot now and then because you hit something or a friendly Lightning passes underneath, but the amount of times it saved the Magrider is already enough to make it worth it.
  2. tootoll

    Well that is the point. More versatility, even if it mean debuffing some of close combat traits for new one.

    I was on indar just now. Mags @ Ti Alloys, 0. Prowlers there, 4, 1 in close range 1 in mid range and 2 from far. If you have starting pos on Crown as vanu you can allways see that other factions and they are acumulating/pulling their mbt-s to Ti Alloys compared to Vanu. Vanu only get most of time lightnings and sunarers.

    I was talking about tanks (lightnings), not MBT, sry if it whas not clear.
    Maneuverability is not complain but its precision on long range.

    Numbers are from previous post:
    one Magrider for every 28 players vs 25 from others for mags. vs VS Lightning for every 18 players vs 20-21
    Vanu is apperantly using less Mags and more Lightnings. I know i am. When you look @ it 28vs25 not so large diffrance except one continent does not host only 28 players.

    Lightnings, harrasers and flashs dont even notice us :) they just go underneath as thay like :) , its happening more that others think ;) and mag under mag, oouh my god, who need column of armor when you can go mag under mag :)

    I 2 love to play with Mag, problem is that he is more situational vs other MBT-s, nothing else.
    Edit: sty 4 a lot of spelling mistakes on this post
  3. Peebuddy

    Seriously, where the hell are all these "Buff the magrider" threads coming from? There are like 10 times as many as any other "buff this" thread, only rivaled by the "nerf the vulcan" threads.

    This is what happens when Wrel balances things, the vanu become spoiled brats while the other two factions just stop asking because we know all we're getting for Christmas is coal.
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  4. Demigan

    Allright, what would you give the Magrider to improve it's versatility. But also add an idea for the Vanguard, Prowler and Lightning to improve their versatility.
  5. AntDX316

    Just the natural ability to actually stop the insane infinite yaw turning w/o a counter-input just time weighted enough that it stops where you want instead of turning the other direction right after passing your desired target heading. It's very hard to target moving targets at times in which you die because the opposition has a more Controllable turret. Just 2 harassers kill mags like it's nothing. There isn't much time to calculate what should happen. The real challenge is trying to balance the mag on a side slope and shooting at targets. Half your ammo, you will most likely get no kill versus the other ESMBTs where it just sits like you have erected a turret on the mountain.

    Maybe give the natural ability for it to actually get stuck on the ground so it just rotates like a prowler? At least make the turret head separate from the body? It doesn't have to be much, probably 45° left and right so we have some increased control and stability like a gimbal to start?
  6. AntDX316

    Screen record your magrider skills first. If you want to keep the Mag inferior so you would remain superior on TR/NC, then your comment makes sense.
  7. Goodkat

    Correct. Infantry cannot dodge shots. Not at all. The rounds move way too fast. Infantry do not strafe in fights in order to dodge shots. They strafe to throw off aim.

    At the range that magriders usually need to get to in order to kill, strafing is not effective at throwing off aim.
  8. Demigan

    Did you even read the rest of my post? The point where I explained exactly that its meant to throw off aim?

    At range all vehicles have trouble killing other vehicles as there's more time to get back into cover. The Magrider simply has the best survivability at range.
    Then when at closer ranges the Magrider's advantage doesnt just disappear. It remains a useful tool, just like a Vanguard that cant strafe at all still has some use out of having a slim frontal frame. Strafing also has other advantages, like the ability to simultaneously move towards cover or an advantageous position in the same method infantry can and keep the front armor pointrd at your enemy, while all other tanks have to put a lot more effort in simultaneously keeping their main body direction in mind, where the cover is, by how much damage you have to start turning to get into cover in time while also having to reveal your weaker side-armor.

    Its not the black and white "now I have an advantage and now its gone" that you make it out to be. Also you are ignoring that most of your "problems" with the Magrider are equally if not more present on the other vehicles.
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  9. LodeTria

    Didn't demigan always bring up some fud about despite there being thousands of less magriders there was "more per captia" ,as if that mean anything anyway lol. He must be pretty heartbroken he doesn't even have that anymore.
  10. Demigan

    I based that off of Campagne's previous data, which as he mentions has changed now. Also that "fud" was that the Magrider has more or less equal amounts pulled per player as the other factions. Are you really that desperate to insult me that you have to resort to this kind of reaction?

    Can this be explained? Ofcourse! Look at the forums with the increase in players complaining about the Magrider being weak, while since Campagne did his research previously the Magrider has only been buffed. If an increasing portion of the playerbase says it's a crappy MBT then more players will have confirmation bias and avoid using it. That is ofcourse just guesswork, but considering that the Magrider can now equip Magburn and Fire Suppression without consequences but a general drop in players actually using it there's little other explanation that I can think off. Can you explain it?

    Now again because people don't seem to realize: I'm not against buffing or changing the Magrider. I'm against buffing or changing only the Magrider and I'm against the "oh mah gerd mah Magrider is incapable of doing X!" even though the Magrider is well capable and in some cases even the best at doing exactly that.

    That's why I try to get people to suggest multiple improvements to not just the Magrider, but also to the other vehicles. AntDX for example had a good QOL improvement that should simply be present as you shouldn't have to feel you have to fight your own vehicle to get stuff done, unfortunately he suggested only a QOL improvement for the Magrider so once again it's looking at one thing without regards of what it would do to the overall game.
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  11. LodeTria

    Even back when there "more per captia" there was still thousands of less magriders than Vangords and Pwowlers, so seeing the fake stat you often paraded around as "everything is fine shut up magriders op" being kicked out from under you is a small pleasure.

    You're grossly over estimating the reach of this forum lol. Even the planetside reddit has more reach than this place.
    The reasons MBT's usage continues to decline should be obvious, but I doubt a "Tanks are so ******* op" person like yourself will see it.
  12. Demigan

    Ah so you looked it up then? You took the time to use the excessively slow and not too accurate search function on these forums to look for Campagne's stats? Can you tell us why you didn't link to them?

    I know why: You either didn't look it up... Or you did and found those stats that you would have linked too would once again show us the uncomfortable truth that the Magrider has the best performance when it comes to killing vehicles, which is what I based my "Magrider is powerful enough and doesn't need more buffs" on. Can't have that ruining your small pleasure now can we?

    You once again show why the entire rethoric of most of the Magrider crowd should be ignored: It's not about proving the Magrider is worse, it's about insulting the people who give arguments that the Magrider isn't crap in the hopes that it will make your point somehow.

    It's simple statistics. The forums are a random population chunk of the entire PS2 population, and we can assume that they represent a portion of the playerbase. If there's more complaints on these forums we can assume that there's more complaints elsewhere too, like in-game where the VS tells it's own players the same.
    As for the overall MBT usage decline that's easy: Escalation day. Bastions and the increase in aircraft traffic ruin much of the vehicle combat, so less people are invested in them. Additionally many of the zergfits will focus on redeployside with little vehicle combat as that takes too much time, so there's a large chunk of the playerbase not invested anymore in vehicle combat.

    Also if vehicles are not OP, why is every single base that allows vehicles to fire into them almost always dominated by those same vehicles? Strange how that works eh?
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  13. pnkdth

    Just to add an accurate size comparison as a reference;

    As we can see the Magrider has a pretty big profile and sits at about the same height as the others (the raised area providing an even bigger target). In a Magrider you cannot possibly keep facing your attacker all the time (thus making it harder to intentionally dodge) which means every other attacker will be firing on the largest and highest profile of them all. Strafing can definitely be used to your benefit but holy heck why is it being hyped to the high heavens all the time?

    In short, the Maggie is a thicc MBT (which goes with the VS faction trait. See; VS infiltrator) and its mobility can be both a blessing and a curse.
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  14. Demigan

    Let's look at it from the other end of the spectrum: Why is this said to be a useless feature all the time?

    The Magrider might be broad, but what you don't see on this picture is that most of that broadness isn't actually hitbox due to the sloped curve. The total hitbox size might very well be less than the Vanguard's frontal hitbox.

    What you also can't see on that picture is the height difference between the Magrider and the other two tanks. From where I'm sitting the Magrider looks lower than the other two while you claim it's higher. The outer edges are about equal in height to the Vanguard and Prowler main chassis without the turret. But the Magrider is floating, so it has less total hitbox to reach that same height. The raised area in the middle of the Magrider is of similar or even lower height as the turrets of the Vanguard and Prowler. Only the length of that portion could be counted as a negative against the Magrider, which considering the advantages to the hitbox it's already gotten is a minor disadvantage.

    You also proclaim that every other tank somehow gets in the Magrider's flanks. That begs the question of how you are fighting in a Magrider which has much more freedom to determine how and where the battle will take place and it ignores that the other two tanks have similar traits: The Vanguard is the biggest tank from the side and it's not as if the Prowler when he's turned his chassis can somehow keep more tanks in it's frontal armor area than the Magrider. In fact we often see the opposite: Because you have to keep in mind where your cover is and how to get back into it based on your current main chassis position many players will show their side-armor and profile anyway.
    You also ignore the reality of the tank armor system: It doesn't matter if you hit your opponent in the side-armor if you are still within the 45 degree frontal angle, it will remain a front-hit.

    Now will a Magrider be easier to hit from the side? Yes! But that's no different from the other two tanks, and it has a higher chance of facing it's slimmer and more durable frontal armor to it's opponents. This is an observable fact, if only because you have to turn your front armor to a target to fire and it's not rocket-science to do so.

    And once more: What are you hoping to achieve with your post? My posts are attempts to prevent the Magrider from getting (more) buffs without regard of how it's already functioning, while the other vehicles are ignored or get less favorable traits (NC Numbnutz reactor anyone?). But many of the pro-Magrider posters say that they have no agenda about getting it buffed, but they do point out what they percieve as flaws... So what's your angle?
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  15. pnkdth

    To provide balance to inevitably one-sided discussions. In every Magrider thread you and a couple of others bombard us with walls of text and any and all arguments from VS players tend to be drowned out by getting draggedinto every conceivable argument ever to the point where the OP's only gripe was wanting the Maggie to turn smoother is forgot (usually end up talking about other MBTs instead, or alternatively ridiculously over the top claims of what the Maggie is capable of doing).

    That's reading a lot into what I said. I was merely "proclaiming" you cannot ever hope to keep facing the right way and since the entire platform is based on turning towards your target you will absolutely and inevitably show your opponent your weak spot. It is a double edged sword, to say the least. Claiming there's nothing wrong with the Magrider handling because X or Y does not mean it cannot be improved and, no, he does not have to come up with suggestions for other MBTs. If you think that's the issue try making a thread of your own. I can pretty much guarantee you'd get lots of visibility for your suggestions if they weren't randomly strewn over Magrider threads.

    Also, ask yourself this, did I purposefully ignore something or didn't bother to state the obvious?
  16. Demigan

    There is a one-sidedness on both sides. The Magrider crowd complains that every inch of the Magrider is UP or useless and some people will point out with arguments that this isnt true. So now you add to the one-sidedness of the Magrider crowd by once again claiming something is bad about the Magrider. So far that balance you are looking for in this discussion is far off.

    Those "arguments" that are supposedly drowned out are based on "I feel" arguments and pure bias. How many in this thread alone have lamented that supposedly the Magrider does not have a use for its strafe ability, proclaiming problems with it even though the other non-strafing vehicles are worse off? Too many already.

    Again: all tanks suffer from not being able to face all opponents. This is nothing unique to the Magrider, and the other tanks are more likely to show weakspots than the Magrider. And those things you purposefully ignore or assume are "obvious" ate pretty important most of the time and the "obviousness" is just as often bias. Most VS think their Magrider is "obviously" bad and "obviously" incapable of using its strafing ability with any effect. You probably know the phrase "the problem with common sense is that its so uncommon", thats because everyone has their own view about common sense or "the obvious"

    Now once more because I seem to be practically the only one who actually does look from more than 1 side:
    provide a list of changes necessary for the Magrider to be a fun, well performing vehicle, and add all the changes necessary to the other vehicles to keep them fun and well performing too. You cant go around screaming "mah Magrider be bad need buffs" without considering what it would do for everyone else, especially since the last time Campagne did the maths the Magrider was the best performing MBT.
  17. pnkdth

    I am pretty sure I wrote the sentence, "In short, the Maggie is a thicc MBT (which goes with the VS faction trait. See; VS infiltrator) and its mobility can be both a blessing and a curse." I do not think this is a claim the tank is not good enough. However, I think making the tank handle/feel better is a good thing. I've already commented on what I'd like to see be improved with the Vanguard/Prowler in other threads relevant to those vehicles.

    I remember previous discussions too, and I wasn't convinced with the conclusion, but I rather piss glass than go back and forth on that stuff again.
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  18. LodeTria

    Yeah I did look at them, there was thousands of less magriders exsisting than Vanguards & prowlers. Only the made-up **** stat of "MBT's per captia" that you always spouted got that to be true in imagination land, but it was a useless stat because it didn't make the thousands of less magriders appear in the game now did it. There was always fewer magriders exsisting than Vguards and Prowlers, and now even your made up stat doesn't even support that anymore.

    And I would link them If I could find them.

    That's alot of assumptions.

    Well you got one at least, redeployside. You even touch on how much time invstment is needed in running armour, when a mobile infantry force with routers and beacons are far more efffective at, well, everything.

    Why are you trying to bring other vehicles into this? This is about MBTs. Those open bases or bases where vehicles are actually good, you are far more effective using sunderers, ants or Harassers, not MBTs. They can get deeper into those bases thanks to superior speed and better vehicle frames (sunderers going over bollards for exmaple), are either more durable or evasive than MBTs and have the same best AI gun, the kobalt. The sunderer can even equip 2 of these.

    C4 is also a huge threat to vehicles in bases, you either use the sunderers natural resistances (+blockade) or the evasiveness of the harasser/ant.
  19. Demigan

    Ah so you were lying and ignored the reason why I used that stat. You admit that yes there were similar Magrider pulls per capita, the same stat Campagne recalculated in this thread and made you giddy because "I was wrong" accoding to you. And the reason I used that stat was because the VS always proclaimed that they specifically pulled less Magriders because it was supposed to be bad, which that stat proved to be false.

    Thats a lot of scientifically accurate asaumptions. look at demographical data for example. Everything from what you vote for and how much money the average person earns and all those things are based for the most part on statistics of a small randomized portion of the population. Are you going to day that all that data is wrong? There's a scientific error in there as it is a prediction, but with a large enough sample size you can reduce that error significantly.

    Routers and Beacons? Try Galaxy drops.

    As for the point you are trying to make, this is a design flaw rather than infantry being massively OP. Its also ignoring how infantry gets to its location in the first place.

    Lets looknat what I said:
    “Also if vehicles are not OP, why is every single base that allows vehicles to fire into them almost always dominated by those same vehicles? Strange how that works eh?”

    "Fire into them", not drive. Also if you are worried about C4 then MBT's with that anti-c4 armor work wonders as that armor is specifically designed against infantry rockets and C4.

    Its not as if MBT's are instantly useless within buildings. But just like aircraft you have to wonder: why bother getting in a more dangerous place if you can pick a spot with less risk to get similar results?
  20. csvfr

    It seems to me as the Magrider has a higher skill ceiling than the other tanks.

    Sure it will lose a close range head-to-head engagement against the other tanks, assuming all rounds hit, equal upgrades, and that the enemy uses their respective special ability. However on the slightest unevenness of the terrain, such as a small slope with a rock or something, the Magrider can easily outplay the opponents. This is where the Magrider dictates the engagement; it can peek in and out of cover shooting whereas the opponents would have to roll over the slope exposing their more vulnerable side armor and being an easy target while doing so. In these situations it is also easy for the Magrider to bait the opponent into triggering their utility early and retreating.

    Beyond close range one-on-ones, the Magrider excels in larger armor fights. With the afterburner it can do a successful kamikaze strike into the enemy lines where other MBTs would die before coming close enough to do any real damage. Often Magriders can be seen taking up flanking positions on the nearest mountain tops, a firing position from which they are next to untouchable but can shoot almost everywhere. The standard C4-fairy counter-strategy to ‘artillery’ tanks is less effective against a Magrider due to its constant strafing and random movements making it much harder to hit with C4 from above.
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