Fighters useless without heavy certing

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Granathar, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Granathar

    Just as the title says. I tried many times to do ANYTHING in Reaver, Scythe or Mosquito, but I think their defualt setup is crap. It's theoretically not pay 2 win, but come on - without spending like 3000 certs on single air vehicle it's just flying free frag. Fuel tank is a joke and default air setup is only barely capable of intercepting enemy aircraft. And by intercepting I mean "to keep them busy for a while until they destroy you with more capable weapons and upgraded manouvering".

    For example Lightnings and MBTs are pretty usable with their defualt setup. Of course they are far worse than ones with upgraded armor, fully upgraded cannons and other stuff, but they are able to provide real armored support. Default fighters can provide some touristic flying for fun, but I don't believe they have any combat usage while EVERY flying thing is nowadays certed up to the roof.
  2. DooDooBreff

    well, earn some certs and plmp your ride like everyone else.
  3. Granathar

    Yeah, that's the way you make game "friendly for new players" :) Not to mention, that cert prices are pretty harsh. I have membership and it will take a while until I buy something related to aircraft as there are bigger priorities. I don't even want to think how much time would "normal" user need to become at least minor threat in ESF (imagine farming like over 6000 certs while you make 40/h if you have good day). I suppose anyone normal would rather drop the game after a week.
  4. LaughingDead

    The base guns and equipment you start with is actually fairly decent.
    The default guns are good for esfs, the default weapons are generally good for infantry and the basalisks are the go to AV option for sunderers.

    But all that said the devs are already making new player "buffs".
  5. Okaydan

    Where do you draw the line between 'instant gratification' and 'making more accessible to new players'? Because you sound like you want your ESF upgraded for free, but why not leave ESF for the better certed players? Get your certs first as infantery, buy the basic upgrades for tanks, and then slowly move on to ESF/air. Why is this concept bad? The higher the skill/time investment required, the higher the certs required but also the higher the pay-off.

    Also, 40 certs/hour is pretty low, especially for a member. I can pull off 60-100 an hour by being somewhat active as non-member.
  6. Riksos

    Most of the default guns for vehicles are the best "all around" weapons in the game, but aren't specialized for any role. The basilisk and needler for example do good damage to any targey, but excel at killing none. So yes, an ESF specialized with A2A missiles and anti-air nose gun will have an advantage in equipment, but skill goes a long way when flying. A needler pulot can easily out play an A2A geared ESF since the skill ceiling is so high. The default guns are the best choice for new players so they can learn to fly versus all targets. Even on my sunderer with thousands of certs invested, I still use the basilisks because they are simply just so good in any situation. Is the Fury better at killing infantry? Sure, but it can't shoot down an ESF. Is a walker good at shooting ESFs? Sure, but it does pitiful armor damage, even to the back. The defaults are great
  7. Riksos

    Also as a member I get around 100-150 certs on average per hour. 200-250 in primetime when spamming HA vs vehicles. This includes alert and daily ribbon bonuses. I usually log on and play until an alert starts or through an ongoing alert if it has more than 30 minutes remaining, otherwise I'll play until the next. If I don't spam HA or kill many vehicles i can't break 200/hr and if I didn't have membership I couldn't either
  8. Granathar

    What I meant - instead of crappy fuel tanks which will provide NOTHING to someone who is not yet familiar with flying, basic ESF should have attached some kind of rocket pods. Most basic and universal there is. And suddenly "infantry farming" and hunting tanks is not reserved for cert pumping "elite", but to normal player as well. Is there actually someone in this game who would take fuel tank over rocket pods?
  9. FastFinger

    I take fuel tanks over rocket pods pretty much every time i pull an esf, i only use a wing weapon if its "needed" so to speak, abundance of tanks? i'll take my hornet loadout, infantry? i'll take my AI nose gun and coyotes.

    90% of the time i use my trusty default nose gun, fuel tanks, fire suppression, auto repair and hover frame
  10. FastFinger

    I'll add that i might be a bad example because i don't really use rocket pods these days, i find their too middle of the road for me, i either want hornets for tanks or the AI nosegun for infantry, and either way i still want something to defend myself against esf's with.
  11. Badname707

    Fuel tanks are great. All pilots should learn how to fight things with their nosegun before picking up rockets. The rotaries are good, but the default weapons are still perfectly viable. Learning is a difficult thing to do alone, but you can make the ESF viable with a rank or two in airframe and stealth. Fire suppression can be a good cheap upgrade as well.

    But yeah, full default by yourself? You're not gonna have a very good time.
  12. zaspacer

    I agree that the plain stock ESF with 0 Certs into it is only well suited for A2A, and it is undercerted in A2A vs. most enemy ESFs it run across. And the only players who will do well with this stock ESF are going to be good ESF pilots. It is also a brutal joke to give new players a directive that requires killing opponents with a stock ESF.

    But I would also add the following 2 things:

    1) you can make a stock ESF pretty solid by adding:
    * Hornet (very good AV vs Tanks, good AI, takes forever to run out of Ammo [20 volleys stock]) or Rocket Pod (good AV vs Tanks, very good AI, runs out of Ammo pretty fast[3+ volleys stock]) (875 C/599 DG) + Thermal Vision (200 C/100 DG)
    * Fire Suppression 1 (30 C)
    These additions puts you at a decent A2G ESF for 1105 C or 699 DG + 30 C. Cheaper if you wait for the Hornet/Rockets to go on sale. My preference currently is Hornet... that Ammo supply difference is huge in cutting down on downtime having to re-supply)

    This is what I used to level up my alts in PS2 once I learned how to fly. Players can also try AI Noseguns in place of Hornet/Rocket for A2G, but it leaves the ESF more vulnerable to other ESFs (new pilots will likely lose in an A2A ESF duel anyway, but ESF are more likely to try to jump you if they see/hear you're using an AI Nosegun).

    2) the PS2 game seems designed to allow player to Cert into Infantry as F2P, but makes Vehicle play either more Pay based or requiring a lot of grinding to unlock Certs. And "grinding" means spending time in the game helping put bodies in to populate the world. PS2 is a playground for paying customers, that uses free play incentives to (1) attract people for a test drive, and (2) draw in enough players to populate the world for the paying customers.
    • Up x 1
  13. Granathar

    And that's my point. New player has ZERO chances in A2A. If he is not familiar with manouvers, if he has undercerted vehicle - he's dead. I tried many times and best solution for stock ESF is... turn the afterburner on and ram the enemy ESF. At least both of you will die. BUT to hunt ground vehicles and infantry you don't need to be an ace pilot. If there is no AA on the ground or AA is weak, pilot is able to hover and spam rockets. That would encourage people to try flying at least, because they would have a chance to farm some frags with pod spam. Even newbie could be useful to armored column then. And now? Now it's like that:

    - Oh, this game has flying vehicles! I will try one.
    - WTF, this vehicle has only nose cannon.
    - Oh ****, enemy aircraft.
    - Damn, I'm dead. But he had some rockets attached, so I can upgrade this!
    - Over 800 certs? F#$k this, I'm playing infantry.

    And all of this could be avoided by switching at least fuel tanks to Hornets by default. New player would be probably undercerted to fight other ESFs, but capable to do some air support for ground forces. Vehicle stealth is a MAJOR survivability upgrade, anyone who tried to lock aircraft with launcher knows what I am talking about. And I would say it would be more useful for new player.
    • Up x 1
  14. CNR4806

    All vehicles in this game are smoking piles of junk without at least a few hundred certs dumped into them.
    • Up x 1
  15. metrotw


    Wahhh I started playing 3 days ago and don't have all the toys of those that have been playing for years...Give me free stuff.

    Probably a Bernie Sanders supporter too.
  16. Granathar

    No, it's not free stuff. It's changing one thing for another which would benefit new player more. Some of the discussions about spending certs are actually casting some shadow on "not P2W game" repeated over and over by people being already certed up. As infantry - maybe (but it's not true entirely, front grip is huge difference, but it's a cheap upgrade at least), but vehicles? No way. I think tanks are pretty good with their starting position, yet aircraft (ESF at least) is barely usable. People not agreeing that new players would benefit more with Hornets instead of extra fuel tanks are protecting their position as masters of the skies rather than not agreeing because someone wants "free stuff". And I have full access too. I can have these Hornets or whaveter in a day as I gain about 800 certs per day. But free player would have like 300 certs a day in my case and I am pretty sure that he is not ready to risk 800 certs for aircraft weapon without being sure that it will pay for itself later like medic and engineer tools. And without any secondary weapon attached he is not even going to try flying as it's a waste of resources.
  17. Pikachu

    Well with tanks you can farm infantry and with sunderer you can defeat lightnings. But you have no hope against others of the same kind.
  18. metrotw

    Earn it like everyone else did
  19. zaspacer

    I agree that most stock Vehicles at least can handle farming Infantry moderately well. And I think that because this is an Infantry Centric game, and Infantry is the punching bad for most units to grind on (including for Infantry), Infantry is plentiful supply, (non-Max, non-AV) Infantry has no resource cost and (often) low downtime, that model works out well.

    Accordingly, I do think all Vehicles should have stock options to grind infantry at moderately well levels. Which means boosting options for units like ESF, Flash, Gal, etc. And, I also think that *if* this is done, that all HA be given access to a free G2A/G2G Lockon by default and that Max be given acces to Dual Burster by default.

    ESF stock Nosegun used to be better at AI than it is now. Which I think is fine, but that it means ESF needs some other way to be good at AI. My current idea would be to make Rocket Pods available for free (and give HA that free lockon).

    Stock ESFs (even in the hands of a pilot at the same skill level as enemy ESF pilots) will die in a 1v1 vs. a Certed ESF. Mag size in Nosegun is arguably the biggest factor (unless the opponent is running Coyote). Fire Suppression is a major factor, but this advantage can be reduced greatly with the stock ESF spending just 30 Certs for FS1, and a 30 Cert hurdle is not a huge deal for even new players (though maybe hey should make it 1 Cert like the 1st zoom optics, to get players much more willing and comfortable to try it out).

    Like many F2P games, I think much of PS2 is P2P, and some of it is P2W. But I also think some parts of it are ~F2P, it's just *very* confusing for new players exactly what those parts are and how to use them best.

    Also, yes, DBG (and other games) have extracted grind/research blood, sweat, and tears from players who now feel entitled to the gains their efforts have carved out. Not so different from someone who works hard for their money not wanting to have it all taxed away and handed out to people who didn't work. Some of those will not want to give away their edge no matter what, especially if they struggle on a skill level and the edge is the only thing keeping their performance from dying (or those who just want to dominate wins as hard as possible). But many will also be open to a system that is better for everyone (including of course being better for them), as long as it seems solid, good, and fair. And part of that comes from giving things to those players for their blood, sweat, tears, loyalty, etc. (giving a free gold gun to ex-players and not active players is *not* a step in the right direction; not giving players some sort of Cert refund when their item is nerfed is *not* a step in the right direction, etc.)[/quote]
  20. Riksos

    Planetside is not Pay to Win, it's Pay to Progress. There are no features in Planetside that are not aesthetic (such as an American Flag decal) which cannot be gained through play.

    Pay to Win is a concept where even if you have logged 10,000 hours of gameplay, you cannot get that sweet weapon that the guy who just purchased the game and made a microtransaction for $100 just bought, which gives him a tremendous advantage.

    Pay to Win and Pay to Progress are not the same thing.