Faction Imbalance

Well colour me suspicious that you chopped out all the data that doesn't support your claim.

Regardless however, let's take a looksee. Hmm, it would seem that the least used of the three with the least kills has the highest average VKPU... What a surprise, it's almost like the number of users can influence the stats.

Ya' do if you want to actually kill something, what with the already slow RoF. If even one grenade goes AWAL and lands anywhere in the entire cone the shot will do 1/4 less damage. For a weapon that has only one beneficial trait, it should hope to be consistent in that trait.

The Vulcan also does not require a full spin up if the trigger is released for a fraction of a second like you seem to imply.

It does win when without 100% accuracy. Go figure the inaccurate, low volume-of-fire weapon misses a number of projectiles outside of point blank. Hence why it is considered worse. (Not to mention the combination of awful, unfun traits.) I'll leave you to continue to ignore my rebuttals.

More users weight down the average stats.

Saron actually has the best burst DPS, which I would call much, much better. But no, by giving the NC a better weapon I would be buffing them by giving them another option.
I looked up the definition of "Strawman" because I've seen it thrown around here recently. I do believe that this is something you may be guilty of.

Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest? Mjolnirs all around?

I looked up the definition of "Strawman" because I've seen it thrown around here recently. I do believe that this is something you may be guilty of.

I hope you don't genuinely believe that all NC play differently than all the TR & VS on every server?

"See: NC maxes. Higher kph, lower use rate." It's like you don't even read I what I've been saying.

Or are you saying that NC MAXes are the best, but less players choose to use them?

There is not a smiley on this forum that is able to fully express my amusement as I type these lines.

I may be a little jaded and pessimistic. But at least I'm not a Mjolnir apologist.

There is no refutation to my claim here. One of the weapons has a higher vkph. That's a fact.

If you release the trigger for a time shorter than the refire rate, yeah, because you haven't actually interrupted the firing of the gun, but that doesn't make a difference with bloom because the bloom doesn't reduce until a time segment LONGER than the refire rate is reached.

We have already established that the Mjolnir is more accurate. What is awful and unfun to you about the Mjolnir? The fact that it's good, perhaps? You seem very adverse to things that are good, after all.

Simply false. The number of users does not directly impact the average stats. Weapons which have very few users tend to be aurax weapons or expensive ones, meaning that it is more likely that skilled players use them, which drives up the stats, but the Mjolnir is on par in cost with the other AV Harasser weapons, so, there is no difference here in accessibility.

You believe the number of users demonstrates moreso how good a piece of equipment is than how many kph that piece of equipment has when compared with others of completely equal availability. I simply disagree with your assertion.

You may want to look up that definition of strawman again. I said no such thing. Clearly, there ARE NC players who go for victory and who use what's god instead of wallowing in self pity.

I've been reading what you're saying. But your assertions are so incorrect and you are so stubborn in your belief that I can't have a discussion with you.

This reminds me quite a bit of the discussions that took place on the War Thunder forums. Allied pilots complained like mad because a lot of other allied pilots thought the allies were the worst faction - so they flew bombers to farm instead of fighters to win, even though the fighters available to the allies were perfectly usable, in some cases superior, others inferior; yet the word spreads very easily among a userbase that wishes to be treated like a persecuted class so quickly that even complete lies about how poor their fighters were spread like wildfire.

No matter what you did or said, the allies complained, and lost, almost all the time, because they gave up and flew bombers. The fact that the allies flew less fighters did not mean the fighters were worse - but it did mean the allies lost more often - making some complain even further that the fighters themselves were bad - a vicious cycle. All because of an inflated ego regarding what their equipment should be capable of doing. It is not very foreign to you that NC has more American players, and that Americans have quite a skewed view on instant gratification and such, yes? Notice a parallel to PS2?

No? Then we can't have this conversation. Because you're one of those kinds of people.

And that one just so happens to have the least unique users. Thais is also a fact.

Not really. The thing misses all the time no matter what. Can't call that accurate, but the Vulcan at least lands the majority of shots on target.

Well to start the fact that it fires each of its four projectiles separately, creating four projectiles traveling to different parts of the expanding per-shot firing cone for one thing. Then there's the annoying, low-QOL attributes being that it fires slow, has heavy drop, low velocity, long reload, annoying burst mechanic, and in my opinion ugly sounds and model. Thank Papa Vanu the devs. gave it autofire after a while so one didn't have to spam click it.

And, on top of all that it's not what the NC was promised when it was in production. TR wanted a long-range ES AV weapon and they got the GK. NC & VS wanted a short-range ES AV weapon and were told well in advance that they would be Vulcan-type weapons. Fast-forward and what do ya' fncking know they delivered for VS and just fncked over the NC. Even if the thing didn't suck massively I'd still keep it on my sig list of sh!tty things I hate.

Anyways, no, I'm adverse to things that are unnecessarily bad for know apparent reason, much like the Railjack, directive sidearms, and to a slightly lesser extent the Magscatter. (I would say ZOE, but they made their own bed.)

Simply correct. More players holding on to something and only killing one guy with it all day really brings down the average, and if there are more players carrying something around there are more players achieving very little with it.

This was actually just a joke about you calling me a "Vanu apologist."

That's a pretty broad statement about the NC as a whole.

The only assertion that make is that the Mjolnir is awful garbage that is bad and should feel bad, which is supported by the very low usage amongst NC.

The issue with your claim is that no one ever even talks about the thing. There are threads about the MBTs, ESFs, MAXes, HA special weapons and RL, even the long range AV weapons. There's just nothingto say about the short-range variants however. Two are good and one is not; End of story.

No? Aw, but we were having such fun!

The only thing i hate is a Vanguard, it can shoot down a Scythe at full Speed with thrusters in a curve from 800 Meters, cause of the high bullet range.
That is insane!
No Prowler or Magryder can do this, not even a AntiAir can do this.

Don't fly into the Shell?

1. What you’re not saying is that the number of users does impact average stats. Your statement just sounds like sidestepping, and the way you sneak in the term ‘directly’ seems like a feeble copout.

2. This is just a rehashed NC get gud argument. You really have nothing to back this claim across all servers, and your apologist attitude is clearly showing.

3. To turn your own argument against you, NC are bad because people are always talking **** about how bad they are. So by your own logic, not only are you NC, you also talk sh** about NC, and make yourself out to be a hypocrite in the process.

Lol, it’s more reasonable to believe that players with implicit biases and/or ****ty discriminatory attitudes like yours is likely why NC has such a pathetic amount of alert wins since the beginning of the game. These types of players are more likely to target, avoid, avoid joining, or play as a fourth factioner on NC since the faction closely resembles capitalist America. Not only is this quite plausible, it would also explain why people have manifested and perpetuated such biased, discriminatory attitudes towards NC.

Ironic, since that is what people keep saying after they finish a discussion with you.

Quick Note, all shotguns are the same apart for VS who have no bullet drop. So apart from the jackhammer which is awesome, NC have the same shotguns as everyone else. NC are better at longer ranges, you need fewer shots to kill and your weapons are accurate. TR have high rates of fire which is why they're good at range. Also, everyone's using NS so you basically have the same weapons as everyone else. Because of people like you, the devs nerf and produce more NS weapons to "balance" the game. Each faction is different and balances out by themselves, no need for buffs and nerfs. Plus, the weapons are all tweaked so the the ttk is practically the same for everything, if you can't get the kill, don't blame your weapon, blame yourself. If you still feel NC suck, switch factions. Your welcome

Jackhammer vs Chaingun or Lasher.
Jackhammer, a triple-shot small magazine shotgun with all the standard flaws, and no slugs.
Chaingun, a spin-up weapon that can engage at medium range barely but quickly melts people up close with a large ammo capacity.
Lasher, AoA weapon that denies cover, but has a pitiful velocity, but has range, and becomes insane in numbers.

Our weapons are what?
Every bullet we miss, is murderously costly; And unless we ADS, which makes it easier to hit us, a lot of our guns miss a barn.
Our heavy weapon & Max is also CQC, yet apparently we are longer ranged, making our own people less effective, and unable to be supported by our Max and Heavy weapon users if at our generalized effective range; Glorious.
It doesn't mix bloody well.

TR high-rate of fire, becomes more deadly the closer you are: As the closer the target, the less likely a miss.
If that rate of fire makes them good at range, that sounds unlikely or that they are even more effective up close due to the logic that comes with distance & accuracy.
Their Heavy weapon & Max Support medium-range, with Long-range being slightly possible with the Max.
So it mixes perfectly with the infantry.

VS has no bullet drop, this generally makes them more effective at quickly firing at range.
A lot of VS weapons are in fact, great ranged weaponry, beyond the Orion which is CQC murder-machine.
The Lasher can easily support Long-ranged play.
The Max unit, beyond having the broken-to-uselessness-ZOE, has longer ranged weaponry, which matches well.
They mix perfectly.


NS weapons don't really balance the game.
And every side needs nerfs & buffs, to achieve balance.

Or do we need to mention Vulcan Harassers.

I'm sorry. There's just so much BS in this post, I don't even know where to start.

• Jackhammer is a perfectly decent weapon out to 30-ish metres and godly at 15m or less. I don't know whether this dude is dodgy, but check out this Jackhammer Sniper!
• MCG is bloody good at CQC, but beyond 30-ish metres starts to become extremely lackluster. Hell, just yesterday a dude posted an epic MCG montage showing how awesome they are.
• Note that both of these weapons are extremely useful in pretty much all buildings - like where all the points are!
• Lasher, on the other hand, is almost as much of a death sentence as the Archer at 1v1, especially if caught beyond 20m. It's a situational spam-specific-area weapon that doesn't do enough damage even in the area you're spamming to stop a CQC sniper or decent headshotter from stepping out, tanking the damage, and killing you. It's ONLY good when used in numbers in an area with limited chokepoints and no alternative access. I know that OoD is outdate, but these weapons haven't seen huge changes, and Lasher is outperformed by the other two in kills, KPU, KPH etc. Hell, it has MORE playtime than the Jackhammer, on average, despite the JH averaging 50% more kills! Don't give me that the NC are badly off because of the JH!
• Yes, the NC has SOME high-damage, low RoF weapons that are punishing if you miss shots. On the other hand, those same weapons are GODLY for those with good accuracy and HSR. TR/VS, on the other hand, tend to have a much more middle-of-the-road, mediocre armoury. And let's not pretend that the NC don't have some bullet-hose weapons..... GD-7F, anybody?
• Your MAX is not CQC any more than the other MAX's. Mattocks with slugs hits out just as far as the other MAX's are effective, and NC MAX's generally have WAY lower TTK's (which are offset by smaller magazines and longer reloads). In fact, if you check the OoD stats, the MAX AI weapons perform fairly evenly as a group. So, again, NC are not worse off.
• No bullet drop has got to be the most ludicrously overrated, utterly useless trait that ever was! Literally the only time this becomes useful is at sniper ranges - and almost all our weapons FOR those ranges HAVE bullet drop.
• Most VS weapons aren't as good at range as NC ones - they don't have the damage to be useful (requires too many hits to succeed) and they don't have the accuracy to be useful (worst-averageish horizontal recoil). Between low accuracy (limited hits) and low damage (even the hits you GET aren't that useful), most VS weapons are pretty limited at range.
• The Orion is not nearly the "murder-machine" you make it out to be. Again referring to OoD, since it's all we got, Orion is significantly outperformed by both it's comparable weapons (Anchor and MSW) in kills, KPH and KPU. And that's among Q4, so don't start with that "it's the starter gun" ********.

I will, however, agree with you on the BS that is Vulcan Harassers. Yes, they're close range weapons that suffer at long range.... but on a platform that specialises in mobility, which can dictate range at will, being OP at close range and limited at long range only ever means they're OP period.

That is obviously a hacker, all headshots in 2 rounds faster than the jackhammer actually fires?
Also, this is before the entire bloody shotgun rework. This guy is literally doing the impossible at that range. Also before battleeye and clientside script kiddys were punished.

Also I'll gladly take a lasher in my arsenal over another shotgun, we already have 5 other shotguns, a heavy shotgun that has no bullet drop but the same pellet spread as other shotguns? Why do I need this? Who would need this? Other hand a lasher can keep a choke suppressed and lasher squads are gloriously evil.

Yeah, see... I dunno. Last time I was sure somebody was a hacker, they turned out to be a perfectly decent dude, with a YouTube channel where I learned a bunch of stuff, who just really was that good. I'm trying to swear off hackusations at the moment. It's not going particularly well, but I'm working on it!

Jackhammer is the best NC weapon, I use it all the times on my NC char and wasting everything from 0-20m. For Longe range I use NS pistol perfectly.

VS bullet drop means **** cause every battle is fought between 0-30m. You can have my no bullet drop and ****** lasher and give me Jackhammer for my VS character.

That's good, but that video, before the client fix, before battleeye doing something literally impossible with a shotgun at range twice faster than it can actually fire, there is just no way that guy was playing fairly.

A 167 per bullet damage gun needs one less bullet to kill an enemy at all ranges. 3 consistent headshots will register a kill at 10m or less, while 143 guns require 4. At 10m and longer, the headshot advantage for 167 weapons doesn’t work; it’s the same 4 shots for everyone.

Afaik playing the game for a few years on different factions, TR are just as good at long range as NC, if not better, because they can keep the trigger down on their weapon and don't have to stand completely still to get the best potential shot.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose? Why else would dbg be trying to balance their weapons? Don’t tell me the sole reason is because people are whining on forums.

Take a look at the weapon damage analyzer and you’ll see varying TTK when comparing weapons of different factions.

I see now, it’s the players’ fault the game is in the state it is. That’s some serious dbg apologism if I ever saw it. Maybe if devs actually knew how to properly balance their own weapons system, they wouldn’t have to resort to nerfing current weapons or produce more NS weapons to try and balance the game, hm?

Idk, that guy definitely appears to be cheating.

The JH is badly off because all shotguns are unpredictable in general; you never know if you have to land an extra shot or three to get a kill. The burst fire setting is kind of a joke. If I’m playing Halo or Battlefield I know the range a OHK is needed, as opposed to two or three. But a shotgun within 10m in this game? Forget it. These are some of the reasons I know why not many people use it, but I’ll try using the JH more to get a better idea about the weapon

It’s hard to refute the stats on OoD, but it does make me wonder what would happen if JH unique users were increased to match the MCG. KPH wouldn’t necessarily increase if amount of uniques increased. It’s very possible that Jackhammer KPH would drop as a consequence.

I can’t say anything about the Lasher since I’m averse to buying any more low RoF weapons after playing on NC.

It’s true at higher skill levels NC weapons are rewarding, but it seems like a pitiful runner-up prize to the amount of alert wins NC has had over the years. I’d much rather not have the godly weapon, crappy retention rate, and low morale among other things and taken more alert wins(and certs) in return.

My beef is that if you want a bullet hose like GD-7F on NC it costs you 1k, while one is available as default to other factions. The GD-7F also doesn’t fare as well in ranged gunfights as its counterparts which in my opinion, is a defining feature that TR’s high RoF weapons lack (to be fair, the GD-7F has a very low TTK, so the range limitation makes sense). In addition, bullet hoses should not be virtually exclusive or default to one faction. Low RoF should be available for long range and high RoF for short range--for all factions.

I would say that most VS weapons actually act like high RoF guns are supposed to, and TR is getting the better end of the bargain in all of this.

I was talking about how nice the Chaingun is.... so I need to work on phrasing apparently.
And yeah, that was an epic montage. And showing how deadly it is... a jackhammer montage would be at a stairway praying.

But yeah, NC maxes use unreliable shotguns.
1 single shotgun, the mattlock, of those shotguns has a range limit of 30 meters, and basically needs slugs for that.
Any TR or VS anti-personal weapon can deal damage well past 30 meters, to 60-70 meters I think it was.
From impossible to actually deal damage, to impractical but deals full damage per bullet.
And do you ever see a TR or VS max on a hill, not shooting rockets? Yes. NC Max? No.
How about TR Heavy-weapons? Depends on the height.
VS weapon weapons? Oh yeah.
NC? No, again.

- Beyond, the other three posts above this, pretty much covered it all better than I could.

Okay, Mr. BR44 pay attention.

I am BR100+ on all 3 factions, with over 2k hours in this game. I don't lead platoons, communicate withoutfits and I certainly don't give a damn about who wins alerts.
But I'd dare say that after playing since beta, I have a damn well understanding of the game and it's development over the years.

The NC weapons are not under performing, but you are penalized for missing shots far more than you are with TR weapons. In that way, it can feel unfair when missing 1 shot can cost your life in a CQC engagement, where as TR or fastfiring weapons can allow to miss 3-5 or more with little penalty.
As a NC player it is CRITICAL that you understand your weapon control. You CANNOT spray, must aim down sights and with their LMG's avoid CQC encounters. NC LMG's strength lies in medium to medium/long rage engagements.

VS have nearly no advantage with the no bullet drop, since that is only a factor in engagements over 100m+. If that is the range you pick your fights, you are better off using a battlerifle, scout rifle or sniper rifle. That is certainly not a range to mainly use LMG's, SMG's, Carbines or AR's. Don't even bother pushing this point, because you have no idea how insignificant it is. Next you are probably going to say VS are OP cuz you can't see them during nighttime?

TR, although have super fast firing weapons the recoil and weapon control they need to master is just as difficult. You seriously need to yank your mouse in most engagements just to compensate for the vertical recoil. Don't even get me started on the horizontal.

VS weapons have little recoil, good accuracy but they lack in damage and firing rate. As such, you are able to land more shots on your target, but not deal as much damage as the counterpart if they were to do the same.

As NC one thing you don't often realize is how much that random headshot bullet inflicts, even when hit at random. To this day, I still believe that NC have the absolute best weapons, they are beasts unmatched by anything in the game. Have you even tried the Anchor yet??? Or pullet out a fully upgraded vanguard?

Here's the thing and pay attention now. Each faction has specific traits that suit different playstyles. Chose a faction based on your playstyle, rather than one you visually like and then whine about having that factions mechanics changed into your personal playstyle. I started out as TR, because I like the color red and they reminded me of the Brotherhood of Nod. But I quickly grew frustrated with the recoil on the weapons and switched to NC. Absolutely loved the weapons on NC, especially the heavy assault LMG's and dat vanguard.... omg, dat vanguard. But I absolutely hated the appearance of the NC, I still think they are ugly as hell. The more I played, the more accuracy began to matter to me and it still does today. I want my bullets to land when my crosshair is on target, hence i play VS. My best K/D is still on my NC, TR second and VS last. But I simply enjoy VS more as a personal preference.

I honestly at this point believe that the game is balanced(Except for the Vangaurd, even though I often use it myself). TR still have the most fun toys (miniguns), NC still has the most beasty weapons but the VS are just the most pleasant to play. Find out what suits you best and adapt to the game rather than expect it to adapt to your biased expectations.

Like being the nice guy is always the best, right?

It strikes me often that VS trait (no bullet drop) suddenly disappears on weapons that really could use it like BASR or MBT main cannon.

Doesn't ADS reduce your movement speed, range of motion, and makes a head-shot on you easier?
Which makes the more bullets at a faster rate, have a higher chance to hit you in the head?
Just asking to see if that is accurate or not, as you, Literally would know if it does or doesn't to a meaningful level.
- That wasn't sarcasm.

Aren't NC meant to rely on Headshots, which therefore shouldn't be random let alone if ADS'ing?
If it is both, isn't that literally making it unreliable incredibly?
Wouldn't firing more bullets faster, which increases the likely hood of hitting a target, and hitting the head be more effective?

Wouldn't reliably hitting the target also make head-shots easier & quicker? Which leads to the ADS'ing target being even easier?

Aren't NC Maxes mostly close-quarters, as are NC heavy weapon users?
Wouldn't that mean they are at a disadvantage supporting them, or does that help close the problem areas for both?

Wouldn't in a situation where you move from a base's interior to exterior, result in a switch from under 100 meters to over 100 meter, make the LMG's ability to operate effectively at both better? - I ask, as well, why not get the full briefing so that can die proper.

Does that mean the Vanguard is Balanced or unbalanced? - I can't tell from the way you phrased that.

Since you have the experience, I feel inclined to ask, so I can learn more.
Hence 101 questions, which may sound stupid, but I apologize if this is annoying to answer.
I like information.

So.. You play on PS4 with a mouse and keyboard. Huh, well your perspective would be much different and therefore non-representative of the vast majority who play with a controller