I never really understood why people claim Orion and other .75 weapons are OP. That's why I prepared a small comparison. If after reading it you can convince me that Orion is OP but Sirius isn't then I will join your #nerfOrion movement (If you don't want to read through the comparison you can skip to the summary at the end).Deal? Orion vs Sirius GENERAL: -ADS speed multiplier: 0.75 vs 0.75 -No bullet drop: true vs true -DMG&RoF model: higher DMG&lower RoF vs lower DMG&higher RoF; Weapons with higher RoF are more forgiving at short ranges -Muzzle Velocity: 570 m/s vs 400 m/s; Orion 42% better DAMAGE&TTK: -Max DMG: 1787dmg/s@10m vs 1760dmg/s@6m -fastest TTK: 0.56s vs 0.57 -DMG @ 42m (Sirius min dmg range): 1662dmg/s vs 1183dmg/s -TTK @ 42m: 0.6s vs 0.84s; Orion 28% better -DMG beyond 65m(Orion min dmg range): 1562dmg/s vs 1183dmg/s -TTK beyond 65m: 0.64 vs 0.84; Orion 24% better HIPFIRE: - Stand,Move Accuracy(cuz ADADing): 3.5 vs 1.5; Sirius 57% better - Advanced Laser Sight: no vs yes; Most people run ALS on Sirius and forward grip on Orion, so we can assume Sirius is even better at hipfiring. The ALS lowers hipfire CoF by 40% resulting in a 74% better CoF than Orion's - CoF bloom/shot: 0,1 vs 0.05 - CoF bloom/second(RoF included): 1.25/s vs 0.7/s; Sirius 78% better ADS: - Stand,Move Accuracy(ADADing): 0.4 vs 0.3; Sirius 25% better - CoF bloom/shot: 0.05 vs 0.05 - CoF bloom/second(RoF included): 0.625/second vs 0.7/second; Orion 10% better - vert Recoil/shot: 0.4 vs 0.175; Sirius easier to controll - vert Recoil/second(RoF included): 5/second vs 2.46/second; Sirius 49% better - horiz. Recoil/shot: 0.225 vs 0.4; Orion easier to controll - horiz. Recoil/second(RoF included) 2.8 vs 5.6; Orion 50% better - Forward grip: yes vs yes; most players run grip on Orion and ALS on sirius so Orion has it's vert. Recoil lowered by additional 25% resulting in 62% better horiz. Recoil/second compared to Sirius AMMO - Mag Size: 50 vs 50 - Reload speed: 2.4 vs 3.3; Sirius 27% better - Soft Point Ammo: no vs true; Orion's range advantage is mitigated by Sirius's SPA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUMMARY: Orion has: - 42% better muzzle velocity - up to 28% better DPS in optimal scenario(42 meters), resulting in up to 0.24s shorter TTK at Medium Range(less so if the Sirius user is running SPA, which he should). At Close Range DPS is pretty much the same. - 10% better ADS CoF bloom - easier to manage horizontal recoil - 62% lower horizontal recoil/second compared to Sirius but it trades it for: - less forgiving DMGxRoF model at desired range(close-medium) - No SPA - harder to manage vertical recoil - 74% worse hipfire accuracy - 78% worse hipfire CoF bloom/second - 25% worse ADS accuracy - 49% worse vertical recoil - 27% worse reload speed - Since Orion prefers to ADS and Sirius prefers to hipfire, Sirius has a 33% movement speed advantage over theOrion at short ranges (hipfiring allows you to retain 100% movement speed) because of Orion's nearly unusable hipfire - hipfiring also allows you to completely ignore recoil, making it much easier to aim. But Orion can't do that very well so... So what exactly is OP here? Orion is basically like Sirius with terribad hipfire and longer effective range.At closer ranges Sirius has a huge advantage over the Orion. Yet people complain about Orion being unbeatable at close range. Why? At longer ranges Orion can easily outperform it... But Sirius isn't meant to be used at longer ranges. For that any other LMG can match or even outperform the Orion because the .75 ADS looses on importance outside close range (Orion user has to crouch in order to be remotely accurate + it's easy to lead a .75 user at longer ranges). The Orion is really a SMG/LMG hybrid.It can outperform SMGs at longer ranges and LMGs at shorter ranges, but it has a disadvantage both against SMGs and LMGs at their desired ranges. Short Range > Sirius > Orion > Anchor > Gauss Saw > Long Range
Oh thank you. I am not a VS main but I used the Orion for some time and I was sure I got SPA on it... Anyway it's fixed now
I don't know about OPd, but 0.75 ADS arguably works better defensively at range. Generally in PS2 most battles occur at what would mostly be deemed mid-range (for an LMG), which is to say largely outside a SMGs optimum range. Which is to say if you're going ADS SMG vs CQB LMG at close range mostly who wins will be who fires first, but if you're a mid to long range a CQB LMG is not only likely going to out-TTK a SMG, but also be able to defensively use 0.75 ADS as well as the SMG. So I don't know that LMG vs SMG comparrisons really work. But then the problem (such as it is) with 0.75 ADS isn't really 0.75 ADS, it is 0.75 ADS + medkit spam + HA shield + longer range weapon. But equally if you had exactly the same Orion, but one with 0.75 ADS and the other with 0.5 ADS, the first would be the best.
Why? Orion and Sirius are very similiar: they have a similiar desired range, same ammo pool, same movement multiplier, no bullet drop, same DPS at close ranges(which is desired for both Orion and Sirius)
1. At close ranges SMGs have an advantage due to their ability to hipfire and various other advantages. Yet people argue that the Orion is unbeatable at close ranges. This is just false. 2. Yes, the Orion can easily outDPS Sirius at longer ranges. Let me quote myself:
i think you answered it there. i don't think i've seen anyone complain about orions CQC potential, in cqc you can just hipfire a shotgun, smg or even a carbine, so ADS movement speed doesn't mean much. its at medium range that 75% ADS movement speed shines when both players are forced to ADS, being able to dodge most incoming shots while still having a very competitive medium range weapon is a very strong handicap. note i'm not saying orion is OP or needs a nerf, i'm just explaining why people say it is an SMG vs a LMG at medium range (used by equally skilled opponents) is no contest.
Orion vs Sirius if they are similar, then can my infil have the Orion? devs if you read this, i am sure nobody will oppose to this
LMG vs SMG. not bad. Ok as TR i want the Armistice has same damage like TMG-50 per shot. Armistice for noobs. 896 RPM by 167 before 10m - 143 after 75m / and a 100 round mag. Sounds nice eh ?
Okay, seems like people generaly don't think comparing an LMG to an SMG is a good idea. But I had to compare it to something that 1) isn't considered OP 2) fits similiar purpose 3) has .75 ADS multiplier 4) Is avaiable to HA and since all LMGs with .75 ADS are considered OP I couldn't even compare it to the NS-15M. If you have a better idea then please, share it here and I will make another comparison.
I personally don't understand why everyone is making sarcastic remarks about comparing these two weapons. I seriously want to know why SMGs on heavies are fine (and for that matter, why SMGs in general are fine). Are we also not allowed to compare carbines with battle rifles? So we can't point out the flaws with the battle rifle compared to alternative weapons, and thus debate how to make it a more useful weapon? It's not a case of comparing apples with oranges, because we have the option of engineering either fruit to be more appealing than the other.
Yeah, it is just that I don't think most (if any) Orion complaints come from people taking them on with a SMGs at close range. It would be more (IMO) people taking them on with LMGs/AR/Carbines at mid range. I don't remotely think Orions are OPd btw (although in no way could anyone claim they are remotely underpowered either, with a straight face anyway), but equally there is something of a case for an arguement about whether they are balanced in a factional sense (especially in the context of HAs with spamable medikits & shields).
sure Sirius is as OP as Orion with: -Way better TTK (0.28s longer while most of CQC TTK are around 0.5sec) -Such better DPM (50X125 instead 50x143) -Such great damage degradation at range (2 tier lower at 42m) -Such better unmanageable horizontal recoil (0.4 each shot man! incredible sniper) -This awesome ADS COF and bloom. -Fast as light as velocity. It's certainly why i see any MLG top skill heavy players rerolling VS or choose VS in competitive matches to use it. oh wait, they use battlegoose & orion instead. Maybe because sirius have terrible bloom, terrible unmanageable horizontal recoil wich is even worse than tickling damage past 20m. Best part of this thing!! 125@615m to 84@42m mitigates 143@10m to 125@65m Incudin ROF: http://ps2model-axiom.rhcloud.com/#dps/la/1/29001S/22 Seriously man, you should do politics, i almost believed in.... oh!... forget it.
