[Suggestion] ESRL Rebalance.

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by TheKhopesh, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. TheKhopesh

    Pretty self explanatory.

    I've seen dozens (if not hundreds) of plausible suggestions for ESRL rebalances, and have no intention to throw out another thread filled with details.
    Because, honestly, there will always be someone who will disagree with me on the finer details.

    All I aim to do with this thread is have something we can point to and say "SOE, will you at least make a decision (and hopefully a statement too) on the subject?

    So, ESRL balance.
    Yes or no?

    Preferably, list the ESRL's in order from most in need to least in need of balance changes.

    Here's mine:

    #1. Striker (Rework pretty much the whole thing).
    #2. Phoenix (It's good in some situations, but most it falls into the category of "Complete Downgrade".
    #3. Lancer (It's got some issues that cannot be left untended to).
    • Up x 3
  2. FaLI3N

    Striker needs a full rework as you said, lock-ons aren't fun to use or to be hit with.

    Phoenix is an amazing side-grade, the rockets still hurt and you can shoot them from complete safety. It is easily the most enjoyable of the ESRL and don't need to be touched, they are the only rl that can hit anything behind cover reliably.

    Lancer is good but nobody ever uses it because of its charge mechanic and the fact that it is completely outclassed by the AV mana turret, its only plus being faster projectile velocity which is pretty much useless anyway if you can aim with AV mana. May pick up in usage if they ever truly nerf the AV mana but at the moment it is incredibly funny to use in pairs behind enemy lines near popular ESF air pads to gib them when they go to reload.
    • Up x 2
  3. Vivicector

    Well, they do need rework.

    Lancer: Faster charge up. Better - remove different levels, leave only the basic shot and charged shot, much faster charging then now. Allow headshots =P

    Phoenix. Its fine. The only weapon to hit enemies behind the cover and from safety.

    Striker. Lock ons suck. It is a clear fact. Rework the thing all together.
  4. TheKhopesh

    Long read ahead. TL;DR parts are in color. ;)

    I must disagree with those who say "the phoenix is fine".

    While it is more usable than the others, and more fun to use, it is not a side-grade.

    Issue 1-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are a plethora of issues with it at range.
    Those include:

    -Flying through infantry AND vehicles (Most notably ESF's and harassers- with an extremely rare chance to occur on lightnings and liberators).
    It happens with horrid frequency when dealing with infantry/max suits.
    This is due to an issue that all vehicles have (the phoenix missile is considered a "vehicle" by the game engine). Ever hit a guy while in a vehicle, only to find out he's fine, even though you hit him dead center and should have pancaked him? It's rare, but every so often it happens. This is exceptionally annoying for a "vehicle" who's only purpose is to kamikaze into it's target.

    -Decreased maximum range (ever since PU02, in large battles, your max distance can randomly decrease by up to +50 meters. (Trust me, +1/6th your max range is a LOT).

    -Your frame rate will drop to 15 FPS or less whenever your target is hit by rocketpods or flak when you're within around 40 meters, almost guaranteeing you to either miss or be hit in the splash damage and be destroyed (the missiles are flatout destroyed by splash damage (Except for whatever splash damage type SOE used for the lasher for some -hopefully an intentional- reason).

    Issue 2-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The missile is literally the least maneuverable of all "vehicles" in PS2 (At a turning radius of 55% that of a stock galaxy!), which means that if the driver of a vehicle gets hit, and saw it coming, he just doesn't know how to avoid them, because I have no trouble dodging phoenix missiles in my sundy/MBT/skywhale when I play TR and VS.

    Tied in with that, the missile has practically no skill cap when it comes to perusing a vehicle.
    Look at vehicle, fly toward. If he has competent gunners, you're never going to hit him in a million years. If he knows how to evade a phoenix, you'll never hit him, if there are competent enemy ground troops around, you'll never hit him.

    I once got rage /yells because I was consistently shooting down a phoenix using a harasser M40 Fury when the missile got to about 10m.
    That said, the missile needs to have the turning capability of at least an MBT (don't even get me started on magriders with the mag burner, they don't need to do anything but wait til the missile sounds close and give the burner a love tap).

    In fact, the only time I have ever been killed -or even lost a vehicle to- the phoenix since I started using it was once on an engie turret (and that was back before they 100% fixed the issue of the missile and it's sound not rendering).

    It's too easy to avoid, and I'm noticing that more and more people are catching on to how to do that.

    As well, if it were easier to steer, that would make overshooting infantry much easier to do, thus reducing it's use on infantry.
    Little known fact:
    There was a glitch back in GU09 where if you fired from the back of a flash (flash only), and then had the driver swap with you, you would inherit the flash's steering capabilities rather than the missiles. Hitting infantry was a pain, but hitting harassers became possible again (before the harasser nerf, hitting them was an exercise in futility).
    The glitch was fixed in a hotfix two days later (I don't know whether SOE knew it was there or not).

    Issue 3-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many agree, the "shooting it down" mechanic is out dated, and should only be in there if the phoenix gets a greatly needed maneuverability increase.
    Or at least only vehicle weaponry should be able to shoot it down (not some guy with an +845 fire rate SMG/carbine/AR, and especially not some TR with a 200 round chaingun. Also, a few shots from a semi-auto or full-auto shotgun guarantees a hit if it's within 30m, which is plenty range, as the missile often turns a 180 on being hit~P.S. you can indeed be killed by your own phoenix missile being shot in close proximity, and flying back into your chest! I know from experience :( ~).

    This leads me to Issue 4.

    Issue 4-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    When in a bucket seat (flash, harasser, and I pray to god they fix it before the upcoming Valkyrie's release!) you must take GREAT care when firing the Phoenix, as it is not only possible -but incredibly, incredibly easy- to shoot your own vehicle!
    If the vehicle is in reverse, you will hit it!

    Seriously, get on NC, have a friend (or even some poor stranger, if you can convince him!) pull a flash (Or harasser, but the flash is funnier if you are intending to do it), and have him drive in reverse.
    Then pull the trigger.

    I found this out by accident when I was in a harasser (Loaded up with outfit members no less! :eek:) billowing smoke as we ran from enemy lines to repair.
    I saw an enemy harasser appear seemingly from nowhere hot on our tail (there were tons of them, as this was before the harasser armor nerf), so I took aim, we hit a wall so we started to reverse, and then I fired (this whole thing took place in under 2 seconds).
    Little did I know that we would all die in a firy inferno thanks to our being in reverse when I fired...

    Our driver ("5ou1" -AKA "Soul"- I believe) received a tell from the pursuers wondering how we died from nothing.
    They were laughing like hyenas from what he told me.

    God, I hope the Valkyrie doesn't have this issue. Look at the seats, they're recessed into the airship...
    If this isn't fixed on it, you'll only be able to fire the Phoenix if the Valkyrie is hovering at a standstill or landed! :confused:


    So yeah, that's not even half the problems with it.

    Don't get me started on the issue with sustained DPS at range (seeing as how it's flight time makes it essentially a 4.7 second "short" reload, and a +12.2 second "long" reload.
    (4.7 is point-blank, +12.2 is max distance. I say "+12.2 seconds, as it can vary by a few meters, equating to a variance of either .05 or .07 seconds. I've never been able to be that precise. So in general I just say "over 12.2s" or "about 12.2s".)

    Much thought has been put into this, and the easiest solution (as well as most balanced) is to give it an afterburner (like that of ESF's so it could reach it's target in only up to 2 seconds, rather than the current flight time of up to +8 seconds).

    Then there's the issue with it's range counter being timer based rather than based off distance from the "pilots" body.

    It needs to be changed to allow one to fly the missile based on distance from body.

    There are plenty more issues.
    A few are just as major as the ones listed, and many, many, many more that are minor issues which can be lived with.

    Long story short, the Phoenix is indeed the most fun ESRL of the three (And I don't think this will ever change unless they make it as -figuratively- unusable as the striker currently feels, or they remove the camera guide altogether).

    But compared to the "regular" launchers it is most certainly a down grade, through and through*.
    (It's well within the realms of "usable", but it's still a down grade, just a really fun one!):p
    That, and the Phoenix has more bugs than the Entomology wings of every museum associated with the Smithsonian.

    *If you know how to avoid the phoenix, and what will truly provide cover against it, you'll never be killed by it.
    If you do have the experience to know all the ins and outs to the Phoenix, and are killed by it, you were either:

    -Wanted to die.
    -Or so drunk/stoned/medicated (what have you) that you should just watch something on T.V. because your reflexes are currently that of a +95 year old blind man with severe carpel tunnel and alzheimer's.

    Seriously, this is the one (and so far only) weapon that can be avoided 100% of the time.
    You just need to know the tricks to it.
    Heck, you don't even need to see the missile.
    The sound can be heard at it's max range the instant it leaves the launcher (I'm not kidding, max range on the sound is +300 meters! something that also should be mitigated. 150m tops. I tune the sound out until it gets to about 50-60 meters, because that's when you need to start planning to dodge. It lures the pilot into a false sense of security, making him not expect your sudden action when it gets to about 15m).

    Well, there is one exception to the "100%" chance to dodge thing-
    The only time you should ever be hit with this is if you were shot from less than 5 meters.
    Being rocket-primaried is an acceptable way to be hit by this weapon.

    Any other time, you were hit because you simply don't have enough experience to know how.
    After +180 hours gameplay with the thing (well, when I combine my times with both the original NC15 and AE -the Anniversary Edition- reskin) you tend to know what it can and cannot do.
    And you won't ever get hit by it (Unless you're hit within shotgun distance).

    I do not feel that the NC should get the only weapon in all of Planetside 2 that can be avioded 100% of the time.
    In fact, I do not feel there should be a weapon that can be avoided with absolute certainty.

    (Out of curiosity, let me know if you skimmed this, or read the whole thing top to bottom if you reply.):D
    • Up x 1
  5. BeyondNInja

    Biggest problem with Phoenix apart from ******** sensitivity, schizophrenic range cap and having kills stolen at ~200m by other weapons with faster velocity has to be the collisions with friendlies/walls when firing in crowded rooms and spawnrooms.

    If there are snipers around or we are being spawn-camped I don't have much choice but to use it indoors, and it gets very frustrating very quickly when it keeps spontaneously exploding everytime it touches a spawnshield or comes within a meter of a doorframe...

    Upsides include humiliating lolpodders, getting that final hit on an afterburning magrider just before max range and stealing kills on sundies from the opposite side of a base.
    • Up x 1
  6. Frosty The Pyro

    Lancer is hands down the best HA launcher for AV work outside of spitting distance (when the stock launcher and decimator will outperform it). with even the vaugest of competency you should be able to hit everything except mobile ESFs, harrasers and flashes just about every time. It takes some practice to be plowing ESFS and harrasers, but once you have said practice it is fully within the the abilities of the weapon.

    The lancer could use a longer hold time for the final charge, but its not really a big deal.

    Also I beleive all launchers could use scope options. Especially dumbfires. I HATE the dumbfires iron sights, seriously, adjust for drop and hope the target doesnt move/change direction because you cant see them anymore

  7. TheKhopesh


    I do hate the ironsights.
    As well, they really could use Night Vision scopes (Hitting VS maxes in particular is a massive pain at night!).

    And the Phoenix in particular could really use an IR/NV camera filter, seeing as how it's the only one that requires your body stay still, while your vision changes location.
    This makes it incredibly easy for aggressors to use smoke against you, and it would solve the issue with flak/rocketpods cutting your FPS to a crawl (usually down to 10 FPS or less).

    (It bogs down thanks to the client trying to render two sets of explosions at their highest detail, because it is concurrently trying to render both what you see from the missile's view, and what you'd see from your body's view, which it was never meant to do -leading to massive strain on your system.)

    I'm not against all the ESRL's getting an IR/NV scope either, In fact, they should get it too if the Phoenix does.
    The Phoenix is just the one that needs it most, as it would solve a major issue it has when used against vehicles in large battles, no matter the time of day.
    This is because the explosions don't have nearly the detail when viewed through a thermal filter, and thus wouldn't bog down your CPU.
  8. BeyondNInja

    The lancer was always the most original and therefore favourite ESRL in my book - while I have grown to like the phoenix its not exactly something that's never been done before; and the striker, well...

    The big problem with dumbfire launcher visibility imo is actually that the reload animation completely blocks your view of were the rocket you just fired went. ie if you miss the target half the time you can't see if you aimed too short or too high because the reload animation blocks your view of it.
  9. lawn gnome

    it seems that the majority (from every side including myself) agree that the striker needs at least some attention and is underpowered. i think a complete rework is in order, because as it is, the striker will almost always be either an upgrade or a downgrade from the annihilator.

    the forums have mixed feelings regarding the phoenix the NC seem to think it is weak and everyone else says it is on the powerful end of the balanced spectrum (i personally think it is a great weapon, shoots around corners!). any and all bugs need to be fixed for all of the launchers, phoenix included.

    almost everyone seems to love the lancer. personally, i don't get it, but it was recently explained to me that my 60+% accuracy with my decimator is somewhat freakish, so my opinions on anything that does less than 2000 damage to tanks or aircraft generally don't apply. again there are at least a few bugs that need to be worked out, but the normal people seem to like it so i guess the basic idea is balanced.
  10. Corvus Corax

    If anything, do the striker over again. It's possibly the most useless weapon in the game.
  11. Mathgeekjoe

    I personally find the lock on ability of the striker to be its biggest downside, of coarse making the striker dumb fire with out tweaking it would make it overpowered. I recommend making it dumb fire, lowering splash to 250 damage, increase short reload to 5.2 seconds, increase long reload to 5.7 seconds, change damage type to the other dumb fires.

    The NC phoenix I find to be vary tactical but there are a lot (I mean a lot) of downsides and limits. One of which isn't the limited distance but flight time. When you shoot a phoenix and then hit the throttle analog, it quickly slows down and moves maybe half the normal speed, the only problem is that it will self-destruct after a certain time that is very short. I would change the self-destruct to the distance the phoenix flies rather than distance from user or time in air.

    Lancer really doesn't need a change but people want the increase charge hold time. My only problem with the current lancer isn't its mechanics, but that it lost its title of fastest projectile. Anyone else upset that a rail gun shoots a faster projectile than a particle accelerator. Not needed but would like the lancer charge two projectile speed to be change to 750 meters per second, and charge three to be 900 meters per second.
  12. lawn gnome

    the problem with changing the phoenix to distance traveled is that then all of the players throttle way down scout for targets and then hit the gas once they are aimed and it takes a lot of skill out of play on both sides.
  13. Epic High Five

    All the Phoenix needs is nothing, though an additional 100m or so to that range wouldn't be turned down. Mostly it would help against air, as SOE has decided that Liberators shall take 10+ G2A rockets to take down, dumbfires are the only real choice, and the Phoenix is a guided decimator uber alles
  14. Mathgeekjoe

    It really isn't that hard to shoot a phoenix rocket and even easier to shoot down a throttle down phoenix. By throttling down you also give the enemy more time to shoot it down. The increased air time will also leave you as a sitting duck for longer. The increased air time will greatly increase time between shots giving the enemy more time to repair.

    I am pretty sure expert phoenix users won't throttle down because of said downsides unless they were trying to shoot around a building. So the skill would still be there because experts wont throttle down.
  15. Mathgeekjoe

    The phoenix is like a decimator against ground targets but it is more like ML-7, Shrike, S1, against air targets.
  16. Epic High Five

    It's actually somewhere between the two versus air, but it's more than enough to lay a whoopin on'em
  17. Kriegson

    Imo the throttle down would work if it was basically an instant toggle between slow/fast. Toggle, turn, toggle could allow for some pretty awesome stuff if it could turn a bit quicker to boot.
  18. TheBlazing

    The Striker needs a good rework. Maybe a cluster-rocket or something, but removing lockon and replacing it with something more creative would be good, not because it's OP or anything, but simply because lockon is an annoying mechanic, both for the shooter and for the target.

    The Phoenix could use maybe a bit more range or a "speed up" button that launches the rocket forward like a standard dumbfire but disables turning, however, such a function should only be activable if the rocket has travelled less than 100 meters since launch.

    The Lancer is in a nice position now, laser anti-material sniper rifle at the cost of long charge-up and that's good. However, I would fiddle with the rendering code to make sure that Lancer trails always render for the guy being laz0r'd to death even if the shooter isn't currently being rendered - at least he'll know where to take cover. I would also investigate the possibility of adding scopes, with of course scope sway and all.
  19. lawn gnome

    or they could just reduce the resistance aircraft have to the phoenix. from what i have seen it is probably the worst of the 3 for AA use ATM.
  20. DevDevBooday

    Phoenix is so bad you Auraxianed both of them?